Saving the planet?

[JohnC6]

'Saving The Planet' - what a stupid expression that is, but you hear it everywhere.

The planet can save itself quite well and has been doing so for millions of years. If necessary, it will heal itself by getting rid of humans - we're destined to fail as a species anyway. Plastics and social dumbing down practices have reduced average IQs quite nicely in just the last twenty years or so. In fifty or a hundred years?

I'm with agent Smith in his conversation with Morpheus about humans being a virus (you can search for that yourself if you've not seen The Matrix).

My bold,Trevor. Sadly, in the meantime we're causing the extinctioin of millions of other life forms. I read a really depressing article today about that. Not caused the demise of species directly, apart from hunting etc, but indirectly eg...through anthropogenic global warming which has led to massive fires with the worst losses in Australia but a study going back to 1788 shows that 39 mammal species have become extinct since colonisation in that country ,that's equivalent to 38% of the world's lost animals and that another 17 are now endangered or critically endangered. Seven could be gone within 20 years. Causes range from,as I mentioned, climate change and in addition habitat loss, invasive species (domestic cats have become wild) pollution,resource extraction and land clearance for cattle .Studies are carried out every 5 years and they had an election in May this year and the latest report was ready for publication in 2021 but the previous government under Scot Morrison held it back until after the election which,I'm pleased to say,he lost. He had a poor record on the enviroment and was very business-friendly. He passed a law to allow coal waste to be channeled into the ocean !! Fortunately, the new Labour government has an excellent Enviroment Secretary who has vowed to redress the poor record of the previous government.

Here she is...https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jul/19/tanya-plibersek-pledges-new-environment-laws-to-end-years-of-wilful-neglect-by-coalition

 

[Pound Coin]

Maybe a sound move and we seem to be able to live without CFC's so that's a big tick in the column but producing millions of batteries and other electronic stuff like solar cells containing no end of dangerous substances with little real recycling seems less sound to me.

I just wish there was more intelligent thought and joined up thinking.

Why not go back to #32 and apply some 'intelligent thought' to that one?

 

[Pound Coin]

Years ago, there was a hole in the Ozone layer, that was going to fry us all in a couple of years ....
It seems it repaired itself. Nature will always find a way.

Except that "nature" is a weird collection of happenstance on an almost unique 'planet' in an odd solar system in the extraordinary universe that is billions of years old.

The hole in the ozone layer was caused by humans and was somewhat fixed by legislation.

Does anyone think that there will ever be proper legislation to deal with fossil fuels?

 

[Mr Bump]

Just an observation.

I've been working beside a bottle bank today. Quite shocked at the number of chelsea tractors / volvo x40s rocking up and left running while Tarquin's mum disposes of a weeks worth of wine bottles.

If Tarquin'smum reads this, you're not doing the world any favours...

so you have just figured out the 4x4 diesel crowd don't give a rats about the climate , big LOL

 

[Pound Coin]

My bold,Trevor. Sadly, in the meantime we're causing the extinctioin of millions of other life forms. I read a really depressing article today about that. Not caused the demise of species directly, apart from hunting etc, but indirectly eg...through anthropogenic global warming which has led to massive fires with the worst losses in Australia but a study going back to 1788 shows that 39 mammal species have become extinct since colonisation in that country ,that's equivalent to 38% of the world's lost animals and that another 17 are now endangered or critically endangered. Seven could be gone within 20 years. Causes range from,as I mentioned, climate change and in addition habitat loss, invasive species (domestic cats have become wild) pollution,resource extraction and land clearance for cattle .Studies are carried out every 5 years and they had an election in May this year and the latest report was ready for publication in 2021 but the previous government under Scot Morrison held it back until after the election which,I'm pleased to say,he lost. He had a poor record on the enviroment and was very business-friendly. He passed a law to allow coal waste to be channeled into the ocean !! Fortunately, the new Labour government has an excellent Enviroment Secretary who has vowed to redress the poor record of the previous government.

Here she is...https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jul/19/tanya-plibersek-pledges-new-environment-laws-to-end-years-of-wilful-neglect-by-coalition

It is far easier to say there is no problem.

It gets more votes.

Votes don't, however, change facts. They just make deceitful people feel better about themselves.

 

[Cobra]

Except that "nature" is a weird collection of happenstance on an almost unique 'planet' in an odd solar system in the extraordinary universe that is billions of years old.

Absolutely, obviously the dinosaurs were being a PITA
So nature took them out

The hole in the ozone layer was caused by humans and was somewhat fixed by legislation.

Indeed we stopped damaging it, and nature fixed it without any other help from us

Does anyone think that there will ever be proper legislation to deal with fossil fuels?

I doubt it, not until there is a sensible and practical solution

 

[Mr Bump]

Votes don't, however, change facts. They just make deceitful people feel better about themselves.

Amen to that mate you are so true on that, the dinosaurs that simply refuse to accept the problem will be dead when it effects the actual real people I am seeing it now my UK town stinks of diesel smoke , yet last week i popped over to our greek house for a week and oh the air was so clean and clear and although it is quite a rural area the Greeks heavily tax diesels and have done for a few years and it has cleaned the air in local towns a lot. the UK is such a backward country.

 

[Pound Coin]

Absolutely, obviously the dinosaurs were being a PITA
So nature took them out


Indeed we stopped damaging it, and nature fixed it without any other help from us


I doubt it, not until there is a sensible and practical solution

Dinosaurs did not destroy their own environment in 150 years.

Ozone hole is still a problem, so not fixed.

If we cannot fix the fossil fuel problem, then we have not a lot longer. Enjoy

 

[Pound Coin]

Amen to that mate you are so true on that, the dinosaurs that simply refuse to accept the problem will be dead when it effects the actual real people I am seeing it now my UK town stinks of diesel smoke , yet last week i popped over to our greek house for a week and oh the air was so clean and clear and although it is quite a rural area the Greeks heavily tax diesels and have done for a few years and it has cleaned the air in local towns a lot. the UK is such a backward country.

So you feel better about yourself.

 

[Mr Bump]

So you feel better about yourself.

in what way? we (me n the wife) live a low carbon lifestyle , one small petrol car between the pair of us super low emissions have done for years.
we plan on moving in 18 months to a far better country with a better climate and better quality of life and again much lower carbon impact?

do i feel better about that yes

 

[Cobra]

Dinosaurs did not destroy their own environment in 150 years.

Humans have been here a lot longer than that approx 200,000 years.
No a bad record

Ozone hole is still a problem, so not fixed.

This is quite true but it is slowly healing CAMS scientists confirmed at the end of last month that the 2021 Antarctic ozone hole closed on 23 December, only a few days earlier than in 2020. So that's the ice caps sorted.
They think it should be completely healed by 2050.

If we cannot fix the fossil fuel problem, then we have not a lot longer. Enjoy

More doom and gloom
(I blame brexit )

 

[Pound Coin]

Humans have been here a lot longer than that approx 200,000 years.
No a bad record


This is quite true but it is slowly healing CAMS scientists confirmed at the end of last month that the 2021 Antarctic ozone hole closed on 23 December, only a few days earlier than in 2020. So that's the ice caps sorted.
They think it should be completely healed by 2050.


More doom and gloom
(I blame brexit )

Point missed.

Point missed.

Point missed.

 

[Cobra]

Point missed.

Point missed.

Point missed.

if you say so try explaining your point better in future then
if you say so try explaining your point better in future then
if you say so try explaining your point better in future then

 

[cambsno]

Amen to that mate you are so true on that, the dinosaurs that simply refuse to accept the problem will be dead when it effects the actual real people I am seeing it now my UK town stinks of diesel smoke , yet last week i popped over to our greek house for a week and oh the air was so clean and clear and although it is quite a rural area the Greeks heavily tax diesels and have done for a few years and it has cleaned the air in local towns a lot. the UK is such a backward country.

Not really a comparison. British town compared to rural Greece. I bet Athens has loads more pollution than my village!!

 

[Pound Coin]

if you say so try explaining your point better in future then
if you say so try explaining your point better in future then
if you say so try explaining your point better in future then

OK, one at a time.

Humans have taken c150 years to trash the planet. The fact they have been here for 199,850 years before they started doing that is irrelevant.

 

[Nod]

Greeks heavily tax diesels

They might tax Diesels but the fuel itself is considerably cheaper than petrol.

 

[Cobra]

They might tax Diesels but the fuel itself is considerably cheaper than petrol.

I've been looking for a new ( another) car.
I've always had petrol cars, but if they truly go with phasing out ICE's I have a suspicion, that petrol will go first,
Diesel will remain a lot longer for lorries trains boats, home heating etc.
I doubt any of that will happen in my lifetime, but I'm sorely tempted to go for a diesel fed machine,
Just in case.

Of course there is aircraft and home heating running on 28 sec. Oil.
Maybe they could look at that, as it burns a lot cleaner than Diesel.

 

[Mr Bump]

They might tax Diesels but the fuel itself is considerably cheaper than petrol.

no its not last time i was there on crete i spotted it at about 1.9 euro which is about 1.70p it is slightly cheaper than petrol though i agree but only about 10cents

 

[Mr Bump]

Not really a comparison. British town compared to rural Greece. I bet Athens has loads more pollution than my village!!

oh athens is awful , but that is the same as london on a bad day

 

[Box Brownie]

I've been looking for a new ( another) car.
I've always had petrol cars, but if they truly go with phasing out ICE's I have a suspicion, that petrol will go first,
Diesel will remain a lot longer for lorries trains boats, home heating etc.
I doubt any of that will happen in my lifetime, but I'm sorely tempted to go for a diesel fed machine,
Just in case.

Of course there is aircraft and home heating running on 28 sec. Oil.
Maybe they could look at that, as it burns a lot cleaner than Diesel.

It was my understanding that we no longer produced diesel fuel in the UK i.e. it is all imported compared to petrol which is UK produced.

 

[Cobra]

It was my understanding that we no longer produced diesel fuel in the UK

No idea on that TBH.
But as above, I think it will be the last fuel to go.
Plus besides those already mentioned there is plant machinery to be considered.
Cranes, dumpers etc

 

[Craig1912]

It was my understanding that we no longer produced diesel fuel in the UK i.e. it is all imported compared to petrol which is UK produced.

Not true, it is still produced in this country.

 

[LeeRatters]

No idea on that TBH.
But as above, I think it will be the last fuel to go.
Plus besides those already mentioned there is plant machinery to be considered.
Cranes, dumpers etc

The on-site tools we use through work are actually petrol powered but that's not plant machinery size.

The main issue is simply over population.

 

[Mr Bump]

The on-site tools we use through work are actually petrol powered but that's not plant machinery size.

The main issue is simply over population.

over population, utter bunkum, fossil fuels are the problem 100% and countries stoking aggression and war around the world.
make the world safer and more secure and move away from fossil fuels and we can support many more people, its all economy of scale.
and also we need to restrict the western worlds over consumerism, just this one chart alone below shows the horrendous imbalance.

 

[Chevin]

The main issue is simply over population.

Quote from The Matrix (1999) by Larry and Andy Wachowski:

"Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to another area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet."

 

[Mr Bump]

this is 2013 but you can see where the energy is all being used in the world
Australia and the USA and Russia

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

...you can see where the energy is all being used in the world...

Have you any idea what the winter temperatures are in northern America or Eurasia?

Were you aware that Australia was obtaining nearly 28% of its energy from renewable sources in 2020?

Did it occur to you that the countries using the highest amounts of energy are those providing the greatest amount of imports to the countries using the lowest amounts of energy?

Do you ever think before posting?

 

[Tigger.ufo]

no its not last time i was there on crete i spotted it at about 1.9 euro which is about 1.70p it is slightly cheaper than petrol though i agree but only about 10cents

Skiathos was 2.26eu for Diesel and 2.69eu for Unleaded when I was there ...

 

[LeeRatters]

over population, utter bunkum, fossil fuels are the problem 100% and countries stoking aggression and war around the world.
make the world safer and more secure and move away from fossil fuels and we can support many more people, its all economy of scale.
and also we need to restrict the western worlds over consumerism, just this one chart alone below shows the horrendous imbalance.

View attachment 361452

If all those countries had half the current population, would they use less energy or more energy? Would more trees or less have to be cut down for materials? Would more or less trees & green spaces have to cut down for habitation? Would we have to use more or less energy for building cars, mobile phones, plastic packaging...... Would we have twice as much waste with half the population? Would we have more or less aeroplanes in the sky?

** Okay, 'half' is a bit extreme....

 

[andya700]

It would be better if she saved them for a monthly run, which might perhaps cover the carbon cost of taking them there (which I think was the ironic point of the OP)?

Maybe a monthly run wouldn't fit in the back of the tractor.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuhmspkNg9E

 

[Mr Bump]

Skiathos was 2.26eu for Diesel and 2.69eu for Unleaded when I was there ...

on the small islands its much much more on i was on crete at my house last week

 

[cambsno]

over population, utter bunkum, fossil fuels are the problem 100% and countries stoking aggression and war around the world.
make the world safer and more secure and move away from fossil fuels and we can support many more people, its all economy of scale.
and also we need to restrict the western worlds over consumerism, just this one chart alone below shows the horrendous imbalance.

View attachment 361452

Twaddle. As others have pointed out if the population halved that’s half as much water, half the food, half the cars etc… if the population suddenly became 500m then energy use and pollution would plummet.

 

[Mr Bump]

Twaddle. As others have pointed out if the population halved that’s half as much water, half the food, half the cars etc… if the population suddenly became 500m then energy use and pollution would plummet.

no thats just utter rubbish as huge amounts of the planet use huge amounts more resources, cutting 1m people from western consumerist countries would equal say 6m people in pakistan so are you saying you are 6 times more valuable than someone in pakiastan?

which bit of the below chart are you struggling with?

 

[Pound Coin]

It is a Monbiot quote, so probably will end up high on the ignore scale.

"most of those who are obsessed with population growth are post-reproductive wealthy white men"

 

[cambsno]

no thats just utter rubbish as huge amounts of the planet use huge amounts more resources, cutting 1m people from western consumerist countries would equal say 6m people in pakistan so are you saying you are 6 times more valuable than someone in pakiastan?

which bit of the below chart are you struggling with?

View attachment 361522

Regardless of country, if the population grows by 1bn we need more food, infrastructure, shelter, all resources so we we consume more. If we lost 50% of population proportionally then our pollution would be far less.

 

[LeeRatters]

Regardless of country, if the population grows by 1bn we need more food, infrastructure, shelter, all resources so we we consume more. If we lost 50% of population proportionally then our pollution would be far less.

Wasting your time mate. Tunnel vision going on.....

We'll be going from 4 people to 2 in our house soon - just like reducing a population. I'm pretty sure our gas, electric, water usage, most consumables, waste/rubbish for our house are all going to decrease. So obvious it's unbelievable that people can't grasp that simple fact.

 

[Pound Coin]

The audacious PR plot that seeded doubt about climate change

Thirty years ago, a bold plan was hatched to persuade people that climate change was not a problem.

www.bbc.co.uk

Detail about how the oil industry set out to combat information about fossil fuel use damage to the planet.

Very similar to the smoking lobby.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

I'm pretty sure our gas, electric, water usage, most consumables, waste/rubbish for our house are all going to decrease.

They may...

...but even if they do, how much will they decrease? Taking two inhabitants out of a building doesn't reduce usage by half. Heating and cooking energy will remain much the same for two as four, unless eating and space use changes dramatically. Food costs will come down a bit but it's surprising how the absence of the kids encourages more, rather than less, spending on your stomach. Washing and cleaning will remain much the same unless you spend a substantial amount on a smaller washing machine. You may have less waste to dispose of and less to recycle - then again, you may not.

None of these things are anything like as simple as some people claim.

 

[Nod]

no its not last time i was there on crete i spotted it at about 1.9 euro which is about 1.70p it is slightly cheaper than petrol though i agree but only about 10cents

In June, petrol was around €2.50 and Diesel was around €2.25 - 10% is significant IMO.

 

[Cobra]

We'll be going from 4 people to 2 in our house soon - just like reducing a population. I'm pretty sure our gas, electric, water usage, most consumables, waste/rubbish for our house are all going to decrease. So obvious it's unbelievable that people can't grasp that simple fact.

..but even if they do, how much will they decrease?

Speaking from experience of a very similar scenario, some years ago,
The real difference was the dramatic drop in the water usage, (Metered)
Gas and electric remained much about the same, waste production was reduced by around 30-50%