Saving jpeg question

[yeoboy]

Although I have posed the odd question I am still a little confused, My basic need is to determine what method to use to save my jpegs, As I understand things, They deteriate each time they are saved, I assume they can be opened and viewed without any loss, I saved some to TIFF but they became very large,Any advise appreciated.

 

[petersmart]

Jpegs do NOT deteriorate each time they are saved only when they are edited and then saved.

Which is why I shoot in JPEG (Large) then use DPP to convert to 16 bit TIFFs for all stages of editing then back to JPEGs when editing is finished.

Simples!

.

 

[Chaz Photos]

jpg will only get worst if u work on them just viewing can not do anything to them

 

[Chaz Photos]

Jpegs do NOT deteriorate each time they are saved only when they are edited and then saved.



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not true if you Q is set to anything less then 12

 

[Chaz Photos]

Which is why I shoot in JPEG (Large) then use DPP to convert to 16 bit TIFFs for all stages of editing then back to JPEGs when editing is finished.

Simples!

.

you will only have the 8bit info from your jpg in the 16 bit space of a tiff.
to get max you need raw which might be 12 or 14 bits in the 16 bit space

 

[Islander]

Jpegs do NOT deteriorate each time they are saved only when they are edited and then saved.

Which is why I shoot in JPEG (Large) then use DPP to convert to 16 bit TIFFs for all stages of editing then back to JPEGs when editing is finished.

Simples!

.

Far better to shoot and edit in RAW before you save the final image in another format. JPEG is a lossy format especially at the lower Q settings.

 

[Yardbent]

Nikon D5000 owner...but

I set my camera to JPEG fine which gives a file about 3MB....downloaded to a PC folder

if i do any editing/cropping etc, I save the "file as" a new number so the original is not touched. yes open/close wont affect quality

once I have learnt Elements #7 i shall set camera to jpeg+RAW [ this takes lots space on the memory card]
and then look at the jpeg - if editing needed then it's done on the RAW copy

 

[Chaz Photos]

I have learnt Elements #7 i shall set camera to jpeg+RAW [ this takes lots space on the memory card]
and then look at the jpeg - if editing needed then it's done on the RAW copy

use just raw and save space it has the settings of the jpg in it so its all ready

 

[grahamsewelluk]

DPP does not deteriorate JPEGs on saving - only on "convert and save" or "save as". The rest of the time it appends a recipe to the original file and rebuilds the image each time. This is why you can later do a revert to original settings if you choose to do so.

 

[Yardbent]

use just raw and save space it has the settings of the jpg in it so its all ready

so if i upload RAW file to PC, will Elements#7 show me the jpeg version too

yeh, yah, just do it myself...................

 

[Chaz Photos]

DPP does not deteriorate JPEGs on saving - only on "convert and save" or "save as". The rest of the time it appends a recipe to the original file and rebuilds the image each time. This is why you can later do a revert to original settings if you choose to do so.

DDP was not mentioned

 

[petersmart]

you will only have the 8bit info from your jpg in the 16 bit space of a tiff.
to get max you need raw which might be 12 or 14 bits in the 16 bit space

Well I have tried using 8 bit TIFFs but there is a definite loss of quality and some artefacts introduced - so now I use 16 bit TIFFs.

They are only used for editing then deleted when editing is finished.

The original JPEGs are always saved and never edited.

.

 

[jomike]

DPP does not deteriorate JPEGs on saving - only on "convert and save" or "save as". The rest of the time it appends a recipe to the original file and rebuilds the image each time. This is why you can later do a revert to original settings if you choose to do so.

Most editing apps do this now, Lightroom does, so I assume PS and PSE do too. Even the editing of jpegs in Windows Live photo viewer is lossless.

so if i upload RAW file to PC, will Elements#7 show me the jpeg version too

yeh, yah, just do it myself...................

If you install Nikon or Window's RAW codec you can view RAW thumbnails in 32 bit Windows and open in Fax and picture viewer. Mac is the same I believe.

DDP was not mentioned

Post #2

 

[petersmart]

DPP does not deteriorate JPEGs on saving - only on "convert and save" or "save as". The rest of the time it appends a recipe to the original file and rebuilds the image each time. This is why you can later do a revert to original settings if you choose to do so.

Perhaps I should have made it a bit clearer - I use DPP to produce TIFFs from the JPEGs.

The JPEGs are NOT edited or altered in any way - I treat them as my source files which are never altered or edited - only the TIFFs produced from them are edited.

.

 

[jomike]

Perhaps I should have made it a bit clearer - I use DPP to produce TIFFs from the JPEGs.

The JPEGs are NOT edited or altered in any way - I treat them as my source files which are never altered or edited - only the TIFFs produced from them are edited.

.

What Graham is saying is that DPP edits jpegs losslessly. What this means is that the editing changes are embedded in the jpeg file, but the original jpeg is unaltered. When the jpeg is opened for viewing, the embedded editing changes are applied and this is what you see, but you can always go back to the original jpeg as it was before editing.

 

[simonjessop_photo]

Shoot Raw only. Process Raw only. if you need to photoshop maybe convert to Tiff to work on the file. If you want jpegs convert them when you need them. If your camera shoots Raw files - shoot Raw files, oneday you'll regret if if you dont.

SJ

 

[petersmart]

What Graham is saying is that DPP edits jpegs losslessly. What this means is that the editing changes are embedded in the jpeg file, but the original jpeg is unaltered. When the jpeg is opened for viewing, the embedded editing changes are applied and this is what you see, but you can always go back to the original jpeg as it was before editing.

I don't think you understand - the only things which are applied to Jpegs are the settings as applied in the camera.

When I create TIFF files there is no other editing applied to the Source JPEGs.

I don't save the JPEG files after the TIFF files have been created so no changes can be applied to them.

.

 

[petersmart]

Shoot Raw only. Process Raw only. if you need to photoshop maybe convert to Tiff to work on the file. If you want jpegs convert them when you need them. If your camera shoots Raw files - shoot Raw files, oneday you'll regret if if you dont.

SJ

Sorry I've already had this argument before - I use JPEG (Large) which I find produces pictures virtually indistinguishable from RAW.

End of that discussion.

.

 

[yeoboy]

17 replies is telling me its not a forgone conclusion, I am reaching the decision in my mind that shooting raw might be what i will do, I shot a wedding last week and could have rescued a few pics if I had, Thanks to all.

 

[Splog]

Sorry I've already had this argument before - I use JPEG (Large) which I find produces pictures virtually indistinguishable from RAW.

End of that discussion.

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It depends on the image! Raw gives far greater tonal range than any jpeg. Of course you can produce perfectly good images using jpeg, but what you lose is the ability to rescue highlight and shadow detail. If you save as jpeg at 8 bit then that is all you can work with post capture. If you save raw at 16 bit you have a massively increased range of tones / data to work with, 256 tones instead of 16.7 million tones or colours if you prefer!

The only true advantage of jpeg that I can think of is speed i.e. little need for post processing and can be emailed easily or loaded to the web.

File size is not as important now as it once was!

If you need the speed but want to retain more information in the file then save raw + jpeg .... Best of both worlds.

 

[jomike]

I don't think you understand - the only things which are applied to Jpegs are the settings as applied in the camera.

When I create TIFF files there is no other editing applied to the Source JPEGs.

I don't save the JPEG files after the TIFF files have been created so no changes can be applied to them.

.

I understand perfectly, but I think you do not fully understand how lossless non destructive jpeg editing works. This is what Graham and I are talking about. This talks about Lightroom, but other apps including DPP would work similarly if not the same.

http://lightroomkillertips.com/2008/qa-is-lightroom-destructive-to-jpegs/

 

[trencheel303]

For what it's worth I used to shoot RAW and got bored of having to "develop" each pic, so much so that they'd just sit on my memory card until I could eventually be bothered doing them. Having moved to JPEG means I can forget about the computer and just concentrate on what I like doing - taking pictures. Obviously I fully accept that RAW is far more technically viable than JPEG, but I'm just an amateur who takes pictures for fun.

 

[jomike]

I am also an amateur who takes pictures for fun, but to me part of the enjoyment is the PP, therefore I only shoot in raw. I almost always immediately load my pics onto the PC after a togging session, just to see what I got on the big screen. If I have a bunch of photos that need the same processing, Lightroom makes it easy with the "Synchronise" button so I do not have to do each pic individually.
It beats vegetating in front of the TV anyway.

 

[Yardbent]

............ JPEG means I can forget about the computer and just concentrate on what I like doing - taking pictures. Obviously I fully accept that RAW is far more technically viable than JPEG, but I'm just an amateur who takes pictures for fun.

yep agree there --- not enough time to edit jpegs actually......

 

[petersmart]

I understand perfectly, but I think you do not fully understand how lossless non destructive jpeg editing works. This is what Graham and I are talking about. This talks about Lightroom, but other apps including DPP would work similarly if not the same.

http://lightroomkillertips.com/2008/qa-is-lightroom-destructive-to-jpegs/

No I am afraid YOU do not understand - that talks about non destructive JPEG editing.

In DPP the JPEGs are NOT edited - TIFFs are created from them.

If they were edited then closing DPP would bring up a dialogue box asking "Do you want to save?"

It actually does this if I ever edit a JPEG.

But simply using them to create TIFFs does not alter them in any way.

.

 

[Dogfish_magnet]

Sorry I've already had this argument before - I use JPEG (Large) which I find produces pictures virtually indistinguishable from RAW.

End of that discussion.

.

And you totally failed to understand then also, and still carry on to give dubious advice to others

 

[jomike]

No I am afraid YOU do not understand - that talks about non destructive JPEG editing.

In DPP the JPEGs are NOT edited - TIFFs are created from them.

If they were edited then closing DPP would bring up a dialogue box asking "Do you want to save?"

It actually does this if I ever edit a JPEG.

But simply using them to create TIFFs does not alter them in any way.

.

Whatever works for you.
Think I'll just stick to editing raw files in Lightroom. Seems a lot quicker and simpler.

 

[trencheel303]

I am also an amateur who takes pictures for fun, but to me part of the enjoyment is the PP, therefore I only shoot in raw. I almost always immediately load my pics onto the PC after a togging session, just to see what I got on the big screen. If I have a bunch of photos that need the same processing, Lightroom makes it easy with the "Synchronise" button so I do not have to do each pic individually.
It beats vegetating in front of the TV anyway.

Out of interest how long you been togging for?

It took about 6 months for me to think WTF am I doing when it came to RAW.

I'm actually considering changing the 1Ds to small fine JPEG mode, as 11MP is just too BIG for me, I got on fine with my 3, 4 and 5 MP cameras.

 

[jomike]

Out of interest how long you been togging for?

It took about 6 months for me to think WTF am I doing when it came to RAW.

I'm actually considering changing the 1Ds to small fine JPEG mode, as 11MP is just too BIG for me, I got on fine with my 3, 4 and 5 MP cameras.

I've had DSLRs for 4 years, a P&S for 4yrs before that. I have also been involved in digital imaging since the late 80s in ID card type applications for my work, starting with B&W CCTV cameras and frame grabber boards.

I love the 12Mpixel pics from my D90 because I shoot a lot of macro and I can crop in and get more magnification and detail. Raw helps there as well, keeping more detail.

 

[Bristolian]

No I am afraid YOU do not understand - that talks about non destructive JPEG editing.

In DPP the JPEGs are NOT edited - TIFFs are created from them.

If they were edited then closing DPP would bring up a dialogue box asking "Do you want to save?"

It actually does this if I ever edit a JPEG.

But simply using them to create TIFFs does not alter them in any way.

.

Shoot me if I'm wrong, but what others are trying to say to you is that converting your original jpg to tiff before editing isn't necessary and, in fact, doesn't achieve anything. You could edit your original jpg and then save the resultant edited picture as a different jpg without incurring any degredation to the picture. Indeed you could even save the edited jpg with the same file name as the original and still be able to recover back to the original afterwards, should you wish to do so.

At least that's what I think they're saying

 

[petersmart]

Shoot me if I'm wrong, but what others are trying to say to you is that converting your original jpg to tiff before editing isn't necessary and, in fact, doesn't achieve anything. You could edit your original jpg and then save the resultant edited picture as a different jpg without incurring any degredation to the picture. Indeed you could even save the edited jpg with the same file name as the original and still be able to recover back to the original afterwards, should you wish to do so.

At least that's what I think they're saying

Yes but the stages of editing I do would probably degrade the image to some extent, since I use Neat Image then edit the result in Photo Plus X2 before finally saving to a JPEG.

Sometimes there are 6 or 7 stages of editing.

So using Tiff ensures that the final result is not degraded.

.

 

[Splog]

Yes but the stages of editing I do would probably degrade the image to some extent, since I use Neat Image then edit the result in Photo Plus X2 before finally saving to a JPEG.

Sometimes there are 6 or 7 stages of editing.

So using Tiff ensures that the final result is not degraded.

.

Peter, if you are capturing your shots in jpeg format i.e. 8 bit you have already degraded the image. Using Tiff allows some latitude in what you do in editing, but the original data is still the same! You may just as well edit the jpeg in 16 bit and save under a different file name (in 8 bit)

EDIT: Just re-read your last post and now I understand your point regarding workflow! .... It still doesn't make sense to me capturing in jpeg if you are going to edit so much! ... just imho of course...

 

[petersmart]

Peter, if you are capturing your shots in jpeg format i.e. 8 bit you have already degraded the image. Using Tiff allows some latitude in what you do in editing, but the original data is still the same! You may just as well edit the jpeg in 16 bit and save under a different file name (in 8 bit)

EDIT: Just re-read your last post and now I understand your point regarding workflow! .... It still doesn't make sense to me capturing in jpeg if you are going to edit so much! ... just imho of course...

You can't edit Jpeg in 16 bit (as far as I know) since JPEGs are 8 bit.

for me JPEGs have a number of advantages:

1. Since I take a lot of shots at any one time, shooting in JPEG gives me approx 3x the number of shots on a memory card than RAW.

2. Shooting in RAW means that I can only take about 5-6 continuous shots whereas in JPEG I can take about 20 shots in continuous mode.

3. JPEGs require a much smaller space when saving to DVDs or on HDD etc.

.

 

[alvinphoto&sound]

Although I have posed the odd question I am still a little confused, My basic need is to determine what method to use to save my jpegs, As I understand things, They deteriate each time they are saved, I assume they can be opened and viewed without any loss, I saved some to TIFF but they became very large,Any advise appreciated.

Hey there,

Understand that JPEG is a lossy/compressed format that produces smaller sized files by stripping data (to a certain point). The amount of "data stripping" or compression is set by the Quality or Compression knob, or slider or number you get to choose when you save the file in the software you are using.

Saving into JPEG format even if you haven't edited the images will always strip some data even if you set to save in the least compression or best JPEG quality.

So yes, you are right about them "deteriorating" each time they are saved. And yes they can be opened and viewed without loss of image data.

TIFF is a good lossless format which you can save as compressed (Photoshop offers to compress in ZIP or LZW format for example) and the files will be much bigger than JPEG but smaller than uncompressed PSD (photoshop file) or uncompressed TIFF file.

Depending on the work you need to do with them, you could, for a while now, do editing (to a certain point) on them losslessy without the image data being touched, instead the editing are saved with the file, in case of JPEG they are embedded with the JPEG in the METADATA part of the file. There are lots of software that do that now, such as Adobe Lightroom, Adobe Bridge (is part of Photoshop), there's also Aperture, Capture one.

I hope this helps

My 0.02$

 

[yeoboy]

Thank you, I have understood a lot from the replies, As I am retired now, I have decided to shoot raw, I am happy to spend the time needed to work them, I have studied the minor differences between the pics shot when comparing JPEG and RAW on my 500D but will learn a lot doing a workflow routine, I will see if saving a TIFF for a print size of about 13.5" x 9" will avoid big files.