Sad Times

Byker28i said:
Maggie, write to the club, explain politely what happened and ask them their policy and what it would take to be allowed to take photographs for family memories.
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100% Agree with this. Also may be worth asking your son to have a polite chat with the manager of the team once you know the policy as I assume he will already have good contact with the manager seeing his son is part of the team.

Byker28i said:
Then if you believe it's not a satisfactory response, the local papers are always seeking content. I went with the angle of families denied memories etc. Make it factual add in some content, such as RFC approve and positively encourage photography, there's a link above or the club guidelines are here:
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Not quite so sure on this one, I can understand the reasoning behind it but you I would want to consider the grandsons relationship with the team and club, it could create bad feeling amongst the team depending how it is written or put across.
 
SteveSc said:
Not quite so sure on this one, I can understand the reasoning behind it but you I would want to consider the grandsons relationship with the team and club, it could create bad feeling amongst the team depending how it is written or put across.
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It has to be worded correctly, without any accusations or flare points. Mine was written along the lines of isn't it a shame that family memories are being denied due to this modern perception that photographers are suspicious, rather than parents or friends. Ignoring the fact I'd been told I could be a pedophile in front of all the other parents, but I did mention that unfounded accusations had been made.

Quite a nice link to photography of children playing in the streets in the past, our history of documentary photography, it was handy there was a Shelter exhibition of the work of Nick Hedges at the time, (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...ving-Nick-Hedges-photographs-for-Shelter.html)

Also the photobus project of daniel meadows etc (http://www.photobus.co.uk/)
or Shirley Baker (http://thephotographersgallery.org.uk/shirley-baker-2)

etc etc
 
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Just to add a thought when discussing this with the club, it may be politic to refer to the person who spoke to you as 'A woman you believe to be related to someone involved with the club' (or similar) rather than 'The Managers Wife' (unless she was very clear about identifying herself) - as otherwise it may put the manager in a slightly difficult position.

Removing the specifics allows everyone to talk in general terms, and avoid blaming anyone in particular for giving the wrong message.
 
Ive taken my camera to my partners little brother football games loads of times and have got some good photos.. the parents dont mind at all, mainly cause they like to see the photos afterwards.
 
Phil V said:
They're not f*****g libtards though.

You'll find the 'p*** round every corner' brigade are Daily Mail, Sun, ITV Brexiteers.
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I've heard everything now... If I voted "out", I'm a p***..... Statements like that can put people in hospital.....

And back on track, you should have told her to mind her own business, the ground is most likely owned by the council and the club pay to use the pitch whenever they need to (having managed an under 10's side many years ago...). I used to take pictures of my son and his team playing on a regular basis without any hassle.
 
Jelster said:
I've heard everything now... If I voted "out", I'm a p***..... Statements like that can put people in hospital.....

And back on track, you should have told her to mind her own business, the ground is most likely owned by the council and the club pay to use the pitch whenever they need to (having managed an under 10's side many years ago...). I used to take pictures of my son and his team playing on a regular basis without any hassle.
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Do you want to read my post again (and what I was replying to) and hang your head in shame?

Edit to add. I missed out the word 'reactionary' but bloody hell, if ever someone inadvertently proved a point, I think you've hit the nail in the head @Jelster
 
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Jelster said:
I've heard everything now... If I voted "out", I'm a p***..... Statements like that can put people in hospital.....

And back on track, you should have told her to mind her own business, the ground is most likely owned by the council and the club pay to use the pitch whenever they need to (having managed an under 10's side many years ago...). I used to take pictures of my son and his team playing on a regular basis without any hassle.
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You were there as a parent, known to the team/parents. The trouble is as the outsider of the group, there by association, when one mum starts some of the others usually follow and then it's difficult to have a reasoned discussion. When you do try you are just spoken down to, it's their team, their 'rights' to decide the rules. It's often easier to put the camera away and continue the discussion at a different time and with someone else.
Even in the clubhouse afterwards there was discussion within the groups of Mums as to my intentions. It was very embarrassing for my friend and so ultimately for me for putting her into that position.

Hence the follow up letters.


Edit: theres a very good article/essay here: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ndependence-should-children-have-9619918.html
 
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Incidently at the time I was also working for an event photography company, covering many youth football and rugby tournaments. hence my friends request for photos.
 
Speaking to a friend who is in the Police, as far as he is aware typically 80% of "kiddy fiddling" is by friends or family

So if you see somebody taking snaps of children.... Make sure nobody knows who they are :)
 
mrgubby said:
Speaking to a friend who is in the Police, as far as he is aware typically 80% of "kiddy fiddling" is by friends or family

So if you see somebody taking snaps of children.... Make sure nobody knows who they are :)
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When it comes to actual physical contact, perhaps - that figure is rapidly changing however.

In terms of possession of child pornography or indecent images, familial contact is usually non-existent.
 
StewartR said:
You do know that's from a satirical website, don't you? ... Southend News Network
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Keith W said:
Since when has the Argus been a satirical website, because that is where the link leads to
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I didn't say it was ON a satirical website; I said it was FROM a satirical website. As it happens I've lived in both Southend and Brighton, so I know the Argus is a real newspaper and SNN isn't,

Keith W said:
Also the story is one that was syndicated across multiple news outlets, TV etc. The BBC being just one of many
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But yes, you're right; this was a real story. I was obviously a bit confused because it appeared on the same day as this:
http://southendnewsnetwork.com/news/police-called-after-paedophile-on-southend-seafront-is-accused-of-being-a-photographer/
 
StewartR said:
I didn't say it was ON a satirical website; I said it was FROM a satirical website. As it happens I've lived in both Southend and Brighton, so I know the Argus is a real newspaper and SNN isn't,


But yes, you're right; this was a real story. I was obviously a bit confused because it appeared on the same day as this:
http://southendnewsnetwork.com/news/police-called-after-paedophile-on-southend-seafront-is-accused-of-being-a-photographer/
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Thanks for clarifying Stewart, I appreciate it
 
I have shot children's footy for a number of years and have had to deal with all sorts. I was even asked recently 'have you got a permit for that?' by one manager on seeing my 'proper' camera and lens, ffs.

My number one tip is to ask the oppo manager if it's ok to take photos and explain why. Generally they appreciate the courtesy and will be falling over themselves to return the courtesy by agreeing.

Having said that I had one manager a few years back refuse because he didn't know who I was. I explained that my son was playing at left back so just ask our manager or any of the other parents for confirmation to which he replied 'that wouldn't prove anything.' I pointed out that there was nothing he could legally do to stop me. so he said he'd call the police and say there's a p*** on the park. At that point I showed him my league ID (a different league from the one my son played in) and all of a sudden it was ok.

And here's one I had a couple of years back which perfectly demonstrates the asinine state of some people's approach to this:

I was photographing a team of under 8s from my club and was due to photograph the medal presentations to all the teams playing on that pitch and all the adjacent pitches at the end. I walked in front of the group of oppo parents.

Parent - I'm not comfortable with you photographing my son.

Me - Point him out and I won't photograph him.

Parent - I'm not comfortable with you photographing any of our team.

I like this next bit :)

Me - I'm here to photograph the medal presentations. When your team goes up I won't photograph them

Oppo parents in unison - NOOOO (I had counted on this happening. Time to hammer home the advantage)

Me - Ok when your team goes up I won't photograph your son

Parent very begrudgingly says - I'll check that he doesn't mind being photographed.

However, we must bear in mind that regardless of our right to photograph kids playing footy on a public park, there are times when it is undesirable. There are stacks of teams who have players that are in care. Maybe removed from a violent background or whatever. I even had one instance where a panicky carer rushed over to me as I was snapping because the lad in his care was under threat of kidnap from his father!! now, we still have the right to photograph these players but please bear in mind the unease it can cause carers. All it needs is for a snap to be on social media and a friend of a friend sees it.....

In general I find that people who are confrontational or arsey about it are ignorant. people with genuine concerns are generally apologetic and clearly distressed.
 
robp said:
However, we must bear in mind that regardless of our right to photograph kids playing footy on a public park, there are times when it is undesirable. There are stacks of teams who have players that are in care. Maybe removed from a violent background or whatever. I even had one instance where a panicky carer rushed over to me as I was snapping because the lad in his care was under threat of kidnap from his father!! now, we still have the right to photograph these players but please bear in mind the unease it can cause carers. All it needs is for a snap to be on social media and a friend of a friend sees it.....
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and in this case, all it would take would be for a carer, manager or whatever to come over and talk in an adult manner and request that child x does not get photographed, in which case I'm sure that any photographer would oblige.
When a manager, manager's wife or a cubs leader (in my case) comes across as a bossy so and so and starts hurling abuse or calling somebody a p****, I will NEVER back down.
 
Phil V said:
Do you want to read my post again (and what I was replying to) and hang your head in shame?

Edit to add. I missed out the word 'reactionary' but bloody hell, if ever someone inadvertently proved a point, I think you've hit the nail in the head @Jelster
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I still don't know what having an opinion on Europe has to do with your statement. I normally like your posts Phil, but you've really managed to wind me up with this one.... In fact, reading your post again, I would suggest that most "Brexitiers" are the type who want to get rid of the over PC liberals....

"Statements like that can put people in hospital" was meant to reflect that, just because of a political persuasion, I could be a peadophile, which p***es me off no end. I'l bow out of this thread before I get into trouble....
 
Jelster said:
I still don't know what having an opinion on Europe has to do with your statement. I normally like your posts Phil, but you've really managed to wind me up with this one.... In fact, reading your post again, I would suggest that most "Brexitiers" are the type who want to get rid of the over PC liberals....

"Statements like that can put people in hospital" was meant to reflect that, just because of a political persuasion, I could be a peadophile, which p***es me off no end. I'l bow out of this thread before I get into trouble....
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Sorry it p***ed you off Steve, but as others have said, your post kinda proved my point.

Andy Scott suggested that the attitude that everyone with a camera is a Paedophile belonged to 'f*****g libtards', which was both a sweeping statement and as I pointed out completely untrue.

Now I appear to have upset a couple of people in pointing out that if we were to level that reactionary attitude at any political group, it belongs to DM readers, Sun readers, Sky news, so generally right wing and brexiteers too. It was a throwaway comment. :)

One of those where some people take offence almost on purpose. All brexiteers don't read the Sun, but that doesn't mean that a large proportion of Sun readers aren't brexiteers, likewise DM Sky news.

Bear in mind I didn't bring politics into this, I just put someone (from the right) right.

One of those, just because it's obvious all xenophobes are brexiteers, doesn't mean all brexiteers are xenophobic.

I do wish everyone could grasp that simple concept.
 
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OldCarlos said:
Pretty much sums up my feelings too. We've become far too risk averse as a society. (n)

We actually had the permission forms on Monday from school, for staff to be able to apply suncream.
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My lad brought one of those home a few years back. I refused to sign it. Instead I wrote "Don't be so bloody stupid. Just get on with it" across it and sent it back.
 
So in effect .... you gave them permission then. :LOL:
 
I had a similar incident as the OP a few weeks ago but with a different outcome.

I was taking photo's at my son's u16 football match to be used at the end of season presentation. It was an away game so I'd had a quick word explaining why I was taking photos with the other teams manager (he had the club jacket, clipboard and was doing the official stuff with my sons's team manager). Everything was fine.
About twenty minutes into the first half a bloke came walking up to me, he actually walked across the corner of the pitch as I was on the goal line, informing me 'you can't take photo's of the kids', I explained I was with our team, I'd checked with their manager and if he had an issue go speak to him. The bloke then declared that he was in fact the manager and asked who I'd spoken to, I pointed the man out to be informed that 'oh, ok, he's the coach, as long as he said it was ok then fine' He then apologised and explained that the coach hadn't told him!
It would have been simpler if he'd just mentioned it to their coach before marching over to me.
Anyhow, managed to get some decent shots including a few of their team (they were a better team than ours), got the managers number via our club, phoned him the following day to offer them the photo's of their team, he was very grateful and apologised again for the previous day.

To answer the question as to how you would know if any player is in care or under a care order etc and should not really be photographed, it's quite simple really, ask the coaches/manager of both teams they will know all the players in their team and can advise accordingly. Never had it pop up personally so far.
 
Result! :banana:

Thank you guys for all your input and advice.

I spoke with my son yesterday and showed him this thread. He read the FA rules Respect guidelines that was kindly suggested by Carl I think.

He has just posted a FB update on the teams page with a link to the FA rules Respect page encouraging parents and families to support the team and to take (appropriate) photos. Sod's law it is the final on Sunday and I'm unable:(

He has obviously spoken with the manager and sorted it all out so there should be no further disagreements.

Happy days :woot:
 
Maggie52 said:
Result! :banana:

Thank you guys for all your input and advice.

I spoke with my son yesterday and showed him this thread. He read the FA rules Respect guidelines that was kindly suggested by Carl I think.

He has just posted a FB update on the teams page with a link to the FA rules Respect page encouraging parents and families to support the team and to take (appropriate) photos. Sod's law it is the final on Sunday and I'm unable:(

He has obviously spoken with the manager and sorted it all out so there should be no further disagreements.

Happy days :woot:
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Spot on M

Steve
 
Good stuff M. :cool:

Like I said earlier, with you challenging their decision & showing the error of their ways, you are helping other parents/photographers & maybe actually educating the mumsnet brigade too (y) (we can only hope eh)
 
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Oliver Pohlmann said:
I had this with my drone recently. Was photographing a high end home in the countryside and there was a neighbour not too far away so I knocked on his door just to let him know what I was doing. He got the hump because his kids were playing in the garden.

I said "I don't understand, how does that matter?"
"Well, I don't want my kids photographed".
"I'm not. I'm photographing the house next door".

It left me bemused.
a) I'm not a pedophile. But thanks for the insult.
b) Since when do pedophiles get access to a £4m house to then use a £1500 drone at 200ft up to photograph a kid hundreds of feet away?
c) Your child is seen by hundreds of people every day. Do you make him walk around with a bag over his head everywhere he goes?
d) Stop being a prat.
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Well, it happened again today.

I was using my drone to photograph the rear of a large house. A neighbour's house was about 200m away. Finished the drone work and walked out front to put it back in my car and continue with he rest of my photography. I had my tripod and camera in my hands about to walk back to the house when the elderly neighbour walked down the driveway towards me.

Him: "I oppose of having my privacy invaded like that"
Me: "I'm sorry, who are you, and how have I invaded your privacy?"
Him: "I live next door and you had your drone flying out the back of my house".
Me: "I actually had the drone at the rear of this house. I don't understand how I've invaded your privacy".
Him: "You were the one flying the drone, correct?"
Me: "Correct. But how does it invade your privacy if I'm photographing this house?".
Him: "Well, we've had a lot of burglaries around here so it's important to ask when things like this occur".
Me: "It's absolutely fine to ask and enquire. I'm Oliver, I'm a property photographer, here is all of my equipment, and you can speak to the home owner to verify why I'm here".

I then show him the photos, proving that his home doesn't feature in any of the images.

He then takes his phone out and takes a photo of my car and number plate.

Me: "Can I ask why you're photographing my car?"
Him: "Well, if there is a burglary, the police might want to speak to you".
Me: "Are you suggesting I'm a burglar?"
Him: "No, not at all. Taking your details means they can eliminate you from any enquiries if there is a burglary".
Me: "So if somebody gets burgled, you're going suggest that the police talk to me about it?"

A$$hole!

At this point I gave him my photography business card and told him to make sure they call me directly if there is.

He then said thank you and offered to shake my hand. I refused, stating that I'm not going to shake hands with somebody who just called me a criminal. I told him that as a business professional, I find his accusations deeply offensive.

To be honest, I should have knocked on his door, like I normally would before using the drone. Bit it was a very high end development with gated houses, so I chose not to bug them. Oh well.
 
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Im impressed with your calm and measured response:) There really are some numpties about. I wonder how many burglars take the time to fly a drone, set up a tripod and take photos in broad daylight of their intended target? I'm guessing not many.
 
Maggie52 said:
Im impressed with your calm and measured response:) There really are some numpties about. I wonder how many burglars take the time to fly a drone, set up a tripod and take photos in broad daylight of their intended target? I'm guessing not many.
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Which arguably makes it the perfect cover, of course:)
 
Maggie52 said:
I wonder how many burglars take the time to fly a drone, set up a tripod and take photos in broad daylight of their intended target? I'm guessing not many.
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It does seem unlikely, however there are people who take advantage of the fact that people often don't challenge others who look like they're supposed to be somewhere - theft of things like vending machines in offices where the thief simply walks in wearing a maintenance uniform, carrying a clipboard and walks off with teh machine, even getting office workers to hold doors open for them, etc.

It can be a fine line between being a numpty for questioning the innocent, and being a numpty for ignoring the guilty!

(Clearly the former in this case though!)
 
Phil V said:
One of those, just because it's obvious all xenophobes are brexiteers, doesn't mean all brexiteers are xenophobic.

I do wish everyone could grasp that simple concept.
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I agree with you on the whole, However, I know someone who loves the EU and hates Indians - he actually collapsed when the referendum came out - so that statement is not 100% correct.
(Although I am not sure if xenophobia is the correct word for someone who hates just some foreigners - but I hope the point is clear).

Sadly I think fear of pedophiles taking photos is common among people of all political persuasions and none. I doubt the OP would have been ok in a very safe Labour seat.
 
davholla said:
I agree with you on the whole, However, I know someone who loves the EU and hates Indians - he actually collapsed when the referendum came out - so that statement is not 100% correct.
(Although I am not sure if xenophobia is the correct word for someone who hates just some foreigners - but I hope the point is clear).

Sadly I think fear of pedophiles taking photos is common among people of all political persuasions and none. I doubt the OP would have been ok in a very safe Labour seat.
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It'd be interesting to map where complaints occur.
I've never been challenged in 30 odd years of photography, including shooting kids sports and lots of Scout events.
I live in a 'safe labour seat' but one that voted for Brexit (politically how's that stand)
 
Phil V said:
It'd be interesting to map where complaints occur.
I've never been challenged in 30 odd years of photography, including shooting kids sports and lots of Scout events.
I live in a 'safe labour seat' but one that voted for Brexit (politically how's that stand)
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I doubt you could get a statistically valid set, my Dad was told not to use his phone at a school concert because of privacy fears - and it was in a Labour/Tory marginal seat. Considering the distance he was, they were very pessimistic - he would have needed a 200mm + lens to get anything decent.
 
davholla said:
I doubt you could get a statistically valid set.
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I worked with a bloke who had previously compiled Home Office statistics. To say he was cynical is a serious understatement. "If you think you can get accurate figures on behaviour and belief in the UK, it's likely you also believe in the fairies at the bottom of your garden." :whistle:
 
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