Sad Times

Daryl

Daryl

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Daryl
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Hi everyone.....

with all the togs flogiing kit and big names going into receivers..... Is this the 'Make or Break time'.. I know 5 well known and talented Photographers close or retire early.....

I was shooting a wedding with a good friend and there were two pro togs as guests. One had a studio to shoot all new models of cars for manufacterers brochures and has lost 2 thirds of his work over last 2 years to..... C.G.I.. no cameras in sight. all images made from CGI from the CAD designs. They also used a team to build furniture sets for catalogues and this too is now moving to C.G.I.

With togs on this and other forums calling it a day.... Photography is moving to a new tune with Computers doing what a Pro tog used to do.... Events and weddings all falling foul to Economic decline in this Country.

It will be interesting to see who is still around and make it through these hard and difficult times.... in the next 5 years.
 
:thinking:

I thought, judging by the way a certain Venture-style photographer has a "record month" every month and is constantly opening new studios that it was an almost recession-proof market sector?
 
People suffering in this day and age are just failing to move with the times. The car companies still need car photographers, and when they don't, they still need retouchers to comp the CGI shots onto the backgrounds that they need photographers to take.

Things that used to make money no longer do, and vice versa.

The fact is, though, there are plenty of people making good money shooting cars. Just as there are plenty of people now building them in CGI.

In general, too many photographs see doors closing, rather than opening.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
:thinking:

I thought, judging by the way a certain Venture-style photographer has a "record month" every month and is constantly opening new studios that it was an almost recession-proof market sector?
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LOL
 
Daryl, I think this is the same for a lot of people.
 
Venture were big no with less than half the studios they did have at their peak.

Move with the times? is '*******s!' Technology is moving to areas where you will not need cameras. And is making it easy that anyone can can pic up the latest gizmo and churn out an image that once took skill and knowlede to do....

The chap who told us about his business is one of the top guys. Any Herbert can go take a pic of a car for 'What Car?' mag..... Only a few do the Motor cycle mags and Specialist car mags.

Those guys will be safe for a while.....

Long time specialist pros are finding it hard and Retailers are finding it hard.....

Sad times that technology is taking the skill out of this great profession and that idiots go out and do cheapo jobs that under value the photographic industry to a Tesco mentality.
 
Thing is we are seeing it too...

We have a successful biz and we are up 35% on bookings from this time last year....

But sales are down down... to the point we will turnover nearly the same as last year.

35% up on work load and overheads for the same turnover as customers cut back ....

sign O the times.

We will soon have to Kull the 'So so' shoots and down size to get throught the next few years....
 
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Or perhaps, to play devils avocado, photographers are arrogant buggers that have had it easy for a long time and are now peeved because they can't produce more creative work than some gimp with a camera that's owned it for a week and that the artistically ignorant general public is still ignorant and doesn't appreciate their higher prices and can't see where this extra quality for this extra price comes from. If you can't show in your work and attitude why someone should pay more they won't so it is partly a failure of a photographer's own marketing too. Up your game.

Technology always opens up new areas and sweeps away old ones. It's the nature of progress and development. The whole area of CGI was going to sweep away the entire acting industry but it hasn't. It was a fad for a while then everyone has gone back to real people. Same will be true of CGI vehicle shots in all probability.

Recession removes the weak and ill prepared. It's sad when some big names go but you have to ask why. There are still retailers that are growing during the recession and doing well so it is possible. What are they doing right that the failing ones aren't doing?
 
Daryl said:
Venture were big no with less than half the studios they did have at their peak.

Move with the times? is '*******s!' Technology is moving to areas where you will not need cameras. And is making it easy that anyone can can pic up the latest gizmo and churn out an image that once took skill and knowlede to do....

The chap who told us about his business is one of the top guys. Any Herbert can go take a pic of a car for 'What Car?' mag..... Only a few do the Motor cycle mags and Specialist car mags.

Those guys will be safe for a while.....

Long time specialist pros are finding it hard and Retailers are finding it hard.....

Sad times that technology is taking the skill out of this great profession and that idiots go out and do cheapo jobs that under value the photographic industry to a Tesco mentality.
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Where are you getting your info from? If you're talking about crappy wedding photographers and people who shoot those horrid portraits of families against the white background, baby bump pictures and all that ****, you're probably right.

There are people in the industry making gigantic sums of money shooting advertising, fashion, editorial, and plenty of other genres, because they're evolving their business models.

I just completed a job that took a total of 7 days and clocked in at over six grand. If you're telling me the industry's dying, I'm going to have to disagree.

A photographer I partner on a few jobs just last week quoted out a timelapse job for just under ten grand.

The real issue is that with the emerging digital technologies, many areas of photography are being shown to require no particular skill to work in. "natural light portraiture" for one. Wedding photography for another. There's loads to choose from.. Headshots, which I shoot as a 2nd business, have also taken a nose-dive, because the gap between my skill level and someone with some lights and a camera is often not visible until you compare the work side-by-side.

What remains a realm of the true professional is advertising and commercial photography. This is where you're paid to deliver and realise concepts in a given time frame. Where a set might need to be built and lit and extensively comped and retouched. Where you might need to photograph two elements in two completely different parts of the country, or world, and create a single image, or work with a 3d modeller etc..

The real truth is that a lot of photography requires very little skill, and anyone can have a go. As a result, many people are having a go, and the people who coasted by are now suffering.

Other people who're also suffering are people who're failing to effectively market and sell themselves. Art buyers and creative directors want to see some effort these days, you have to win the business.

There's money to be made selling ice to an Inuit, you just have to be a good salesman, and you need some good quality ice.
 
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There are a lot of photographers (quite a few on TP) who spend too much of there time and effort trying to get the whole world to change so it goes back to the good old days ... and not enough time changing themselves..
 
KIPAX said:
There are a lot of photographers (quite a few on TP) who spend too much of there time and effort trying to get the whole world to change so it goes back to the good old days ... and not enough time changing themselves..
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Spot on.
 
Hope you don't mean go back to film Tony? eek!!!

What remains a realm of the true professional is advertising and commercial photography
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John, you say the commercial sector. The 2 chaps i spoke too are big in set design and auto images for the manufacturers.

But in a few years it work has gone to computer boffins to make everything in C.G.I.

I love the software have some myself. 3DSMax and Daz studio, Bryce. Great for back drops etc.

These are chaps at the top of the game with 20 odd crew building and taking down and rebuilding sets. C.G.I can do it with the technology that the Film companies use.... Proberly cheaper too.
 
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Then incorporate CGI into your business model. If these people are able to identify where they're going wrong, and still struggling, the problem isn't the industry, it's them.

So you shoot cars, but you're having to rely on CGI a lot? Cool-do what Christian Schmidt does and comp car CGI with photography.

Or, better yet, start shooting something that can't be done in CGI. Models can't be created in CGI, so start shooting editorial stuff with the cars.

I don't even shoot cars, and I seem to be way ahead of these guys. I bought Modo the other day, just to make sure I'm ready to create something in 3D when the time comes. May as well have the skill. Same reason why I'm also learning matte painting.

There are industries that are disappearing, and industries that're being created. Stills photography isn't going anywhere, but its use is becoming more succinct and specialised. Evolve or perish.

Also, old school user of 3DSMax here myself, but haven't used it in years. I remember when I did, the Brazil renderer was very popular, but I guess there's even better ones available now..
 
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London Headshots said:
Then incorporate CGI into your business model. If these people are able to identify where they're going wrong, and still struggling, the problem isn't the industry, it's them.

So you shoot cars, but you're having to rely on CGI a lot? Cool-do what Christian Schmidt does and comp car CGI with photography.

Or, better yet, start shooting something that can't be done in CGI. Models can't be created in CGI, so start shooting editorial stuff with the cars.

I don't even shoot cars, and I seem to be way ahead of these guys. I bought Modo the other day, just to make sure I'm ready to create something in 3D when the time comes. May as well have the skill. Same reason why I'm also learning matte painting.

There are industries that are disappearing, and industries that're being created. Stills photography isn't going anywhere, but its use is becoming more succinct and specialised. Evolve or perish.Also, old school user of 3DSMax here myself, but haven't used it in years. I remember when I did, the Brazil renderer was very popular, but I guess there's even better ones available now..
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Some good points here. Ever since the digital age, photograpers have suffered or had to change, diversyfy etc. As technologies continue to grow and evolve , the photographer will have to too, and will end up learning a complete load of different skill sets in using different technology and software to work hand-in-hand with their photography, if they are to survive.
 
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funny you say this, have you seen the new Merc advert? it has a very aggressive looking car stationary with the camera moving towards it.

I said when I first saw it that it looked like CGI, it just didn't feel right. what do you think:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COFx-0F5LFQ

I've started learning animation, computer graphics and 3d modelling just so I can add new elements in to my packages.
 
Maybe it's a silly analogy but the guy who used to deliver coal probably now delivers your online shopping. Same basic job, different application.

There are loads of jobs that have died out slowly over the years and maybe photography may well look very different and employ only a small number of people in 10 years time. Who knows.


It's fundamental problem is that by and large anyone can "have a go" where as something like being a doctor you can't. ;)
 
I thought I’d offer my thoughts from a CG point of view as I co-run a studio that designs cars and creates marketing imagery for some of the worlds major automotive brands.

Whilst we employ extensive use of CG and have a team of CG artists, I see its use like a camera – it’s only a tool to help you create an image.

I certainly see traditional photography happily sitting alongside CG and can’t see a future without the use of photography. We use freelance photographers, for example, to go out to locations and shoot specific backplates and HDR domes so we can comp in the car. Alternatively, we’ve also taken a photographers car photos which have been specifically commissioned and created CG backdrops for them. Certainly there are both benefits and disadvantage to using both CG and photography, and to deliver exceptional work to your clients you have to have an acute understanding of these even if you don’t offer both. Look at your skills as a photographer and understand where CG can’t compete, or as others have mentioned here, position yourself to sit alongside it and work with it. Photography isn’t being replaced, it’s just changing.

But it’s not all rosy in the CG industry. It’s having to change too. A decade ago you need dedicated and expensive computers to run 3D software (Silicon Graphics workstations running Alias Power animator – anyone remember Jurassic Park?) and I remember a bill for £100k for a single computer with the software. Luckily the high end 3D software will run on a regular PC, but now there is much more competition especially in these harder economic time, with many people cutting costs by running a dodgy copy of Maya or 3D Max from their back room. In addition, it’s become easier to achieve more photo-realism in your images, and the software is easier to use. Alot of the business differentiators we used to use, no longer stand.

So how do you compete?

I just remind myself that it’s the eye, vision, and creativity, that clients will value and get excited about. They only care about budgets and what you deliver, they don’t worry specifically about how it’s done. Just saying you can do CG isn’t good enough these days, and your CG work will be critiqued on the same level as your photography. The CG software still needs to be driven by visionary, creative, technically adept, hardworking artists (to click the mouse button rather than the shutter) and not just geeks or ‘boffins’ as someone put it. You still need to be passionate about telling stories and communicating a vision to succeed, and many of the top CG artists are equally at home creating wonderful images with a camera.
 
Unfortunately, addressing a changing market usually means those providing the services have to change (a lot) to keep business coming in.

I work in angling publishing and where photographically we could get away with a lowish standard of work years ago, even with the standard of photography (and design) being really good these days, convincing what was once a guaranteed reader to part with their £3 is now a lot harder - web content has compromised the 'value' of print media in sectors like angling and will continue to do so. Now we have to work doubly hard on our websites and Facebook pages just to tempt people over to buying the mag. We've moved into producing magazine apps, which are a good earner if you can get the numbers to buy a digital magazine, but anglers and technology don't really go hand in hand so it's a slow process. We're now having to do loads more video to give 'exclusive' content and even shoots films for companies that are outside our usual remit - shoe companies, dog training videos, all sorts of random shizzle to keep the cash flowing.

Add to this the fact we've had about five people poached from us to go and work as media managers for different manufacturers. These manufacturers are now seeing in-house features and web content as easy to produce so they don't have to rely on magazines. Obviously, that affects advertising revenue too, as the need for promotion isn't as great.

My job has changed from simply driving somewhere and just taking a few photos in-between chewing the fat with the angler - this were the days when we knew that we would just keep selling magazine after magazine. These days I'm having to do twitter and Facebook reports and teasers, film website material, film exclusive content for the apps, usually shoot 2/3 features in one day instead of just the one, plus I have to edit all this footage and the images in double quick time so it can all be made 'live' as soon as possible. Sounds easy but throw in 14-16 hour days and working across nearly a dozen magazines and it all gets convoluted....

Thankfully, I don't mind social networking and I'm loving the film and editing side of my job. But I've been told in no uncertain terms that I am a luxury that the company can barely afford - I've worked there 11.5 years but that means jack unfortunately and the same applies to most people in the company. I've just got to brown-nose and make myself invaluable and step up to the plate where others are resting on their laurels.

A salaried position is great but the security of it is rapidly diminishing, especially in niche sectors.....
 
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Would'nt it be great that people want C.G.I. for weddings so we can put great weather, great Locations rather than the registry office they had in wimbledon.

Now £3k of software that stop the uncle Bobs for the wedding togs!!.


Another reason some Togs have gone are not just Technology. a chap in Oxon had his work displayed in a pro lab we use. Great work all done for the Big Fashion mags.

Went in the lab one day and there were a few Photographers having a cuppa... The lab ownere said he had not seen that certain tog for about 18months... no work had come in the lab.

The Magazines have all been having a tough time too. What with increasing printing costs and paper / Pulp shortage from South America. all pushing the margins of the Magazines. so asking said tog to drop his prices a bit to get through the tough times then when things get better put the prices back up...

No , seems he would not re negotiate his fees at all so the mags went to the new commers with lower costs and fresh ideas. hence he lost contracts and is now a Security guard.

How the mighty fall.

Common sense would say drop your fees and ride out the storm... and still be here when things pick up. Photographers Ego says 'Nah!' I'm top, pay top Dollar. So client will go else where.....

It is a whole combination of things but it seems a lot of retailers are going under and togs on these forums are finding hard.

The only one's not worried seem to be those with a day time job and trying to build up the biz slowly on the side.
 
Daryl said:
John Modo with Lightwave is a good combination... but the software is there to do models as well.

Even movies can be realistic with out actors being shot. The deatail of skin/lighting and rendering is awesome.
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Yeah, definitely seems pretty powerful. Not up there with MAYA and 3DS, but probably good enough for what I want it for.

I'm hoping to use it to render model poses and then render different materials in the place of skin. So like a man made out of water, or something like that.

The add-on's are pretty expensive though.
 
Daryl said:
For those who want to see what can be done with off the shelf software.

http://vimeo.com/38591304

Modo/Lightwave and CS After effects.
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What a load of rubbish*, no wonder this new technology stuff will go nowhere.








* omg, that was piggin great! Talent does seem to find a way to use new methods for the best, does it not?
 
Daryl said:
Would'nt it be great that people want C.G.I. for weddings so we can put great weather, great Locations rather than the registry office they had in wimbledon.

Now £3k of software that stop the uncle Bobs for the wedding togs!!.
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There's already at least one Indian firm offering just such a (PS-based) service.....
 
As a pro the world of photography is constantly changeing,no one quite sure where it will all end up.

But with your personal work,you can keep doing whatever you like,maybe for me most I what I used to do,was just to pay the bills.

My personal work was where I wanted to be :)
 
Its called progress - 100 years ago there were loads of farriers and chimney sweeps, no virtually none. Things change and jobs will end and new ones will be created. There will always be a need for togs, but for many things you can get away without a pro.
 
cambsno said:
Its called progress - 100 years ago there were loads of farriers and chimney sweeps, no virtually none. Things change and jobs will end and new ones will be created. There will always be a need for togs, but for many things you can get away without a pro.
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That's what I say too. Sad though it is it's a fact of life that things come and go. ;)
 
I guess another thing is the amount of half decent amateurs with half decent gear who can shoot good stuff, but don't mind doing it for free. I know plenty of people who I think are great hobby photographers who have a few grands worth of kit, yet are happy to keep it as a hobby and have no desire to get paid or become a "photographer" as anything other than a hobby.

When people can get something good from an amateur or even a wannabe pro without paying a cent, or at least by paying very little, why would the average joe who doesn't understand/appreciate great photography, want to pay top dollar for a great professional tog?
 
I looked into the cgi packages after my tutor pointed me at them and the agencies that use them. I've not got the details now (currently sat in Verona drinking spritz) but needless to say it wasa complete eye opener to someone who loves taking images of cars. I'll find the links when I get home but the agencies doi this are all on major car manufacturers shoots and you'd swear it was photography.
 
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