Ronnie Biggs Dies aged 84

Hugh Jarse

Hugh Jarse

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Steve
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Yes
Another of the *Great* Train Robbers has passed away.

I remember the years that followed the robbery of a mail train and the subsequent chase to find and bring Biggs back to England after he escaped from prison.

A 'sort of' hero to some but a criminal. He was sentenced to 30 years for his part in the robbery and also the assault on the train driver, which is draconian by modern sentencing where murderers are often given less than half the tariff Biggs received.

No tears for him here but a point in history for someone who, in 1963, was part of a criminal act we will never see again

S
 
As long as all of the coverage doesn't encourage others to go and pull a movie-like heist.

Can't help but feel that the media almost see his actions as something worth celebrating.

An elderly criminal has died, shouldn't really be given the coverage it has.
 
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Biggs was a criminal, and one of the gang who assaulted the train driver, Jack Mills, with an iron bar during the robbery. There was nothing glamorous about him. The sentencing probably reflected the staggering amount of money, by 60s standards, that was stolen; although I think Mills' injuries were taken into consideration too. There are plenty of people who wouldn't argue with more robust sentencing today.

I don't suppose he was a particularly evil man, and he's dead now. I take no pleasure or satisfaction from that, but it didn't warrant headlines. RIP.
 
MartynK said:
Biggs was a criminal, and one of the gang who assaulted the train driver, Jack Mills, with an iron bar during the robbery. There was nothing glamorous about him. The sentencing probably reflected the staggering amount of money, by 60s standards, that was stolen; although I think Mills' injuries were taken into consideration too. There are plenty of people who wouldn't argue with more robust sentencing today.

I don't suppose he was a particularly evil man, and he's dead now. I take no pleasure or satisfaction from that, but it didn't warrant headlines. RIP.
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Yes he was a career criminal and, what is now called Joint Enterprise, meant that all the gang received heavy sentences.

He gained notoriety as he hopped around the world and basically evaded justice until he decided to return.

Where I lived in London in 1963, he was seen as a hero but that was down to the audacity of the robbery, the huge haul and that the hang were "local lads".

In my opinion Biggs remained in a personal prison and, due to being on the run, actually would have had a better life had he done his time, behaved and got early release. That said he might well have continued in crime and returned to prison.

The whole thing is an interesting read but he was outside the norms of society and so will always be a criminal no matter how charismatic the media think him.

S
 
A man who showed no remorse, only when he needed to come back for nursing care in the UK. A total waste of skin along with those who supported his 'celebrity' status! Absolutely no loss to society.
 
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I wasn't even born when the train robbery happened. To me he was a fugitive in Brazil who had a few moments of fame singing with the Sex Pistols.
 
Ronnie Biggs was one of the gang but is it proven that he was the one who actually coshed the train driver? I thought that his role in the whole robbery was relatively minor and I don't blame him for going on the run.

R. I. P.
 
It's odd that a programme about the train robbery starts on TV tonight.
 
killwilly said:
It's odd that a programme about the train robbery starts on TV tonight.
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....Oh, goodee! BBC1 8:00pm. Thanks for the heads-up, Alan :thumbs:

I'll have to watch Lord Lucan episode 2 on ITV+1. Another interesting TV prog, especially as I worked for Aspers once upon a time and knew some of the characters. But my lips are sealed.
 
This country built a statue and sang songs for a terrorist who killed innocent men women and children...everyones mourinng his death... so why not glorify a train robber :)
 
I have a soft spot, maybe being born in the 70s has be looking back at things like Lucan and Train Robbers in a slightly romantic way.
 
I agree Charlie, good riddance to him and I hope he burns.
 
RedRobin said:
Ronnie Biggs was one of the gang but is it proven that he was the one who actually coshed the train driver? I thought that his role in the whole robbery was relatively minor and I don't blame him for going on the run.

R. I. P.
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It was never proved which member(s) of the gang assaulted Jack Mills, but that doesn't really matter. They were all convicted under the principle of joint enterprise (aka common purpose), the same principle that was used to convict and execute Derek Bentley for murder 10 years before the train robbery.
 
"Big Jim" Hussey confessed on his deathbed to coshing the driver. It was Biggs job to procure someone who knew how to drive the train. He cocked up with that which led to the driver being coshed to force him to drive the train. All those involved in the offence are vermin, as are all criminals.
 
I am amazed at the strength of feeling and self-righteousness expressed in this thread. Obviously many of you have a somewhat narrow experience of life and have never known anyone whom society deems to be termed a criminal. Did you know that something as minor as not paying your TV licence is a criminal offence? Be warned, ladies and gentlemen, it's a thin line.

Who do you think you are to be so judgmental!?
 
I've never robbed a train, nor been involved in the serious assault of a train driver or gone on the run and thumbed my nose at the authorities, only to come crawling back when needing medical treatment. Therefore I think I am qualified to pass judgement on this scumbag.
 
MartynK said:
It was never proved which member(s) of the gang assaulted Jack Mills, but that doesn't really matter. They were all convicted under the principle of joint enterprise (aka common purpose), the same principle that was used to convict and execute Derek Bentley for murder 10 years before the train robbery.
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....Joint enterprise / common purpose is a legal definition and obviously convenient for any successful prosecution < I would not dispute that. However, there is also a moral issue and to lump law breakers together as if all had caused GBH seems unjust to me.

The Great Train Robbery was hugely embarrassing to the establishment at the time and blown up out of all proportion and examples made to strongly deter others. Stealing huge sums of money is never popular but you may as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb, as the saying goes.

I wonder how folks would feel if no-one had physically come to harm.
 
f1charlie said:
I've never robbed a train, nor been involved in the serious assault of a train driver or gone on the run and thumbed my nose at the authorities, only to come crawling back when needing medical treatment. Therefore I think I am qualified to pass judgement on this scumbag.
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....My post #17 was not directed at any particular individual here but rather at the general tone of judgemental responses. It all sounded far too much like the baying of a lynch mob and very polarised and extreme. That's why I pointed out the criminal status of not paying a TV licence and how thin that line is.

You, and everyone else, is of course entitled to your opinion in this matter., as indeed I am.
 
KIPAX said:
This country built a statue and sang songs for a terrorist who killed innocent men women and children...everyones mourinng his death... so why not glorify a train robber :)
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Indeed, Arthur 'Bomber' Harris gets a poor press for Dresden these days.
 
RedRobin said:
I wonder how folks would feel if no-one had physically come to harm.
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I would still feel the same. You almost appear to be saying that thieving is acceptable (as long as no-one gets hurt).
 
f1charlie said:
I would still feel the same. You almost appear to be saying that thieving is acceptable (as long as no-one gets hurt).
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....I can understand how you might think that but, no, I am merely playing devil's advocate and putting matters into a broader perspective.
 
arclight said:
"Big Jim" . All those involved in the offence are vermin, as are all criminals.
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I seem to recall reading recently that 25% of uk population has a criminal record of some sort. So, that's one in four of every poster on here ;). Best get the rat catcher out :). Let's not even mention the ones that have broken the law but we're never caught.

Steve
 
He was a low grade thief who got involved with a robbery with violence.
He fled the country and gloried in his notoriety whilst never once showing any remorse.
He cocked his nose at the UK until he needed it for free healthcare and then came back to use the system he abused.
Not one of life's positives.
 
jakeblu said:
I seem to recall reading recently that 25% of uk population has a criminal record of some sort. So, that's one in four of every poster on here ;). Best get the rat catcher out :). Let's not even mention the ones that have broken the law but we're never caught.

Steve
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I thought it was around 1 in 7. So far less then 25%.

back O/T. I'm sorry to hear of his death. Just as I would be to hear of any death. but thats where it ends
 
In terms of perspective my take is firly broad.

Excepting the issue of the Blanket Bombing of civilians by the RAF during WWII, we may moralise till the cows come home but that occurred in a total war situation and like it or not, war may be "wrong" but all the normal rules were put to one side.

In the case of Biggs and co, they set out to steal and despite a "daring" plan were caught and punished with a 30 year tariff.

Recently in Bristol, a disabled Iranian guy was attacked and beaten to death by a neighbour, who then, with the assistance of a neighbour, dragged the body to and open space where they burned the body. The murdered guy's crime? He took pictures of local kids vandalising his garden to report them to the Police (50 times appatently). The police then "arrested him for his own safety". He had been declared a "paedophile" by the guy who killed him. The murderer was given a life sentence under which his minimum term in proson is 18 years. So in simple terms, Rob a train you get 30 years or kill an innocent man in a brutal public show of bravado and contempt, serve 18 years. Something wrong in general? Final balance.... rob billions in cash through "joint enterprise" by illegally fixing interest rates in cross continental cash lending (LIBOR etc) and receive millions in bonuses. All criminal acts and despite any passage of time, all criminals.

So perhaps a balanced view rather than a knee jerk on particular instances. The applicstion of Justice is varied and as I have mentioned this in previous posts in which I have mentioned that my son received life changing injuroes in a random assault (GBH) by a stranger who, by pleading guilty, did not serve a day of prison. (a second guilty plea of GBH). We live by the same set of rules and our need to satisfyce our sense of righteousness or anger can lead to irrational expectations of the powers that be. I refuse to be driven by outrage or a need for revenge. I will stat away from the "hang em high" brigade.

Steve
 
Hugh Jarse said:
our sense of righteousness or anger can lead to irrational expectations of the powers that be.
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Are they irrational?
The Iranian guy you mentioned, Bijan Ebrahimi, who was brutally murdered and burnt by a useless thug - what was his life worth?
He was let down by the police, let down by the community and let down by the sentence - are expectations of a 'just' sentence "irrational"?
 
KIPAX said:
This country built a statue and sang songs for a terrorist who killed innocent men women and children...everyones mourinng his death... so why not glorify a train robber :)
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Again, NO HE DIDN'T.
 
If Ronnie Biggs had been robbing today, He could have stopped that train by bunging a few leaves on the track...
 
Musicman said:
Indeed, Arthur 'Bomber' Harris gets a poor press for Dresden these days.
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The country, indeed the world ,was at war.

What Bomber Command did was necessary and right,at the time. It was far less hideous than the crimes of Stalin and Hitler.
 
fracster said:
The country, indeed the world ,was at war.

What Bomber Command did was necessary and right,at the time. It was far less hideous than the crimes of Stalin and Hitler.
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I thought Kippax was talking about Mandela!
 
gramps said:
Are they irrational?
The Iranian guy you mentioned, Bijan Ebrahimi, who was brutally murdered and burnt by a useless thug - what was his life worth?
He was let down by the police, let down by the community and let down by the sentence - are expectations of a 'just' sentence "irrational"?
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Read the Daily Mail forums and you will find comments like 'hang them" for a wide range of lawbreakers. There is a growing expectation that justice can be made up on the fly.

The Bristol "thug" as you describe is one of those morons we have had discussions on here in respect of photographers and pictures being taken of children. He declared publicly the "he will do time to protect his kids". This he is now doing but, as you say, nobody protected his victim. The irrationality comes in the expectation that current sentencing by the courts is soft and does not protect the public. Judges are bound by guidelines that direct a range of time for given offences. They can ignore it and only find their decision overturned on appeal. The sentencing guidelines are available online.

In my lifetime execution has been removed from statute (though Regicide may still have capital punishment?). Life terms have not meant incarceration till death (unlike in the USA) for a long time. I would rue the day it ever returned. Prison is meant to reform those incarcerated whilst punishing offences. It is also meant to be a deterrent to others which now seems fanciful in the rise in violent offences over the years. The Mockrage that passes in society currently in respect of "soft" punishment for criminals, is specious unless politicians lift the bar in determining absolutes for sentences but they pass the law. Case law sets the range of sentencing which is the remit of the Judiciary.So yes irrationality exists. I for one was disgusted by the 18 year minimum term in the Bristol case outraged my sense of justice but I did not try the case. That was done by a judge representing HM The Queen in which the checks and balances the written law provides to all are laid down by statute. Revenge or Justice should reign supreme.

Steve
 
fracster said:
Dunno.Thought the thread had meandered to Bomber Harris.
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Kippax mentioned statues and songs. Both Mandela and Bomber Harris have statues, both were responsible for deaths of innocents but I've never heard a song about Harris, or have I missed that one?

I know, I know we're not allowed to criticise the sainted Nelson, but he was a terrorist in his early days.
 
mickledore said:
Kippax mentioned statues and songs. Both Mandela and Bomber Harris have statues, both were responsible for deaths of innocents but I've never heard a song about Harris, or have I missed that one?

I know, I know we're not allowed to criticise the sainted Nelson, but he was a terrorist in his early days.
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Harris was not responsible for the death of innocents, we were at war with Germany, they bombed us, we bombed them. That is how war works.

Yes ,Mandela was a convicted terrorist, though the judicial system in RSA at the time was, shall we say, interesting.
 
fracster said:
Harris was not responsible for the death of innocents, we were at war with Germany, they bombed us, we bombed them. That is how war works.
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I tend to agree with you on that, but it's not politically correct to say so!!!
 
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