Rolf Harris 5yrs 9months

You are quite correct; it would not be at all acceptable. That is is using wealth to officially buy your way out of the consequences of your offence. That really would be one law for the rich and another for the poor.
Back to (Pre) Victorian justice with all the implications that brings too ;)


BTW, if anyone wants an RH print to burn, they can buy mine for £850.
You'd still rather sell it and make money than burn it yourself though :LOL:
There is always someone trying to make a fortune, from someone else's misfortune you should have learned that by now :D
 
I'd rather keep it! I walked past a selection of his prints in a gallery many times and admired them not knowing who they were by and eventually (before the allegations etc were widely known about) decided to buy it. It may have crossed my mind that he was an elderly man and that prices might rise when he shuffled off this mortal coil but still bought it because I loved it rather than as an investment.

Could I chase him for the devaluation caused by his fall from grace? I may as well cash in as some of the other victims are doing...
 
If such cases carry on, which they will (and should do), the courts are going to be full for years to come and "uncle" Joe or "cousin" Pete from next door better watch out …….. sexual abuse will be found in all sections of our society and at all levels.
 
If such cases carry on, which they will (and should do), the courts are going to be full for years to come and "uncle" Joe or "cousin" Pete from next door better watch out …….. sexual abuse will be found in all sections of our society and at all levels.

Exactly. Every hormonal teenage girl will recall a pat on the backside that deserved a smack in the mouth, not a stretch in pokey.
 
If such cases carry on, which they will (and should do), the courts are going to be full for years to come and "uncle" Joe or "cousin" Pete from next door better watch out …….. sexual abuse will be found in all sections of our society and at all levels.

Yes, the genie is out of the bottle. Expect to see all those ambulance chasing injury law, compensation chasing TV ads replaced by something far seedier. They're the one section of the community who will be making money out of all this.
 
Before anyone shoots in - of course there are degrees of sexual abuse, depending on your views, and sexual abuse is totally different from (planned) sexual perversion ……. two different "addictions"
 
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The punishment of a fine of £1000 to a poor person is much more than that same fine to a rich person. The only thing that is equal is loss of time. To have the same effect on quality of life you have to fine the rich person more otherwise it isn't actually the same punishment in the first place.



It works both ways.

True, but that is in the case of a fine only crime, ie I drop litter and get fined £100 as does a millionaire. Imagine the hassle of means testing everyone though?
 
So surely that should apply to everyone, if a teacher is convicted of the same then they should lose assets like house as well as cash and pension.

I have no problem with that at all, yep.
 
I guess we'd better get back the money he helped raise for charity then, since that must have been done under false pretences too :rolleyes:

Desperate to find something good in Harris? While Saville was working for charities, guess what he was doing? You think Harris was any different? We're hearing about the crimes with enough evidence for convictions, goodness know what else they got up to.
 
Desperate to find something good in Harris? While Saville was working for charities, guess what he was doing? You think Harris was any different? We're hearing about the crimes with enough evidence for convictions, goodness know what else they got up to.

Oh hello...look who's up :runaway:
 
Why present an argument when you can belittle :rolleyes:
 
Exactly. Every hormonal teenage girl will recall a pat on the backside that deserved a smack in the mouth, not a stretch in pokey.

indeed - and some of them probably encouraged it - however there is a pronounced difference between patting a 15 year old on the back side, and raping a mentally deficient 11 year old , or flying to foreign countries in order to abuse small children.
 
Exactly. Every hormonal teenage girl will recall a pat on the backside that deserved a smack in the mouth, .
An old (and older) supervisor of mine had her name on a badge,
above her right breast.

"Pat" turned out NOT to be an instruction :(
 
indeed - and some of them probably encouraged it - however there is a pronounced difference between patting a 15 year old on the back side, and raping a mentally deficient 11 year old , or flying to foreign countries in order to abuse small children.

As the thread is about Rolf Harris, who was neither convicted nor accused of any such offense that's not even relevant.
Of course such offenders should be dealt with harshly.
But not every arse grab or boob graze can be classed as sexual abuse, and nor should it be.
 
But not every arse grab or boob graze can be classed as sexual abuse, and nor should it be.
The unfortunate thing about that is, these days it seems to be. Especially when there is compensation (Per se) in the offing.

See my post above, yep I got a slap and that was the end of it :D
 
Desperate to find something good in Harris? While Saville was working for charities, guess what he was doing? You think Harris was any different? We're hearing about the crimes with enough evidence for convictions, goodness know what else they got up to.

Hi Jenny
Personally, I feel there is a massive difference between the Saville and Harris cases. Firstly, the evidence against Harris seems less than definitive and my guess is that the CPS would not have brought the cases if he had not been a celebrity. Also Saville appears to have been guilty of abuse on a far greater scale and severity.

I not saying that Harris is innocent (I wasn't there) , just that the evidence seems flimsy.


.
 
As the thread is about Rolf Harris, who was neither convicted nor accused of any such offense that's not even relevant.
.

The thread has mentioned both Saville and Glitter - to whom respectively those examples are very relevant

Also one of the girls Harris has been found guilty of touching inappropriately was 7 or 8 at the time - while another (where 7 of the charges centre) was 13 when the abuse started and it went considerably beyond a pat on the bottom
 
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Desperate to find something good in Harris? While Saville was working for charities, guess what he was doing? You think Harris was any different? We're hearing about the crimes with enough evidence for convictions, goodness know what else they got up to.


I would suggest that looking back on Jimmy Savile's "charity" work, makes me wonder if that was just a ploy to come in contact with more and more victims, and also a "saintly shield" to hide behind?
 
The thread has mentioned both Saville and Glitter - to whom respectively those examples are very relevant

Also one of the girls Harris has been found guilty of touching inappropriately was 7 or 8 at the time - while another (where 7 of the charges centre) was 13 when the abuse started and it went considerably beyond a pat on the bottom


I should point out Pete, that Mandi Smith was 13/14 when she admitted to having sexual relations with Bill Wyman (egged on by her mother of all people), and he is not even being investigated for anything.
 
I should point out Pete, that Mandi Smith was 13/14 when she admitted to having sexual relations with Bill Wyman (egged on by her mother of all people), and he is not even being investigated for anything.

Unlikely to be either unless Mandi or her mum made a complaint, too much about them already in the public domain for the police to want to waste resources on it I would have thought. Having said that, the majority of charges against Harris were from a woman that had a consenting adult affair with him for many years, so I guess anything is possible.
 
Looks like the Government should start putting anaphrodisiacs in the drinking water otherwise the legal (aid) system will crash under the mounting wave of legislation
 
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I'm not thinking so much that Wyman would be investigated for Mandi smith - so much as that someone who sleeps with one underge girl might be suspected to have done the same with others and thus be a likely target for Yewtree.

Also with regard to the charges against Harris - he says that they had a consensual affair after she turned 18 and she made the charges up after it ended badly - she says he had regularly been raping her since she was 13 and she was afraid to say no. If the court found him guilty on those charges it stands to reason that they didn't believe his version.
 
The thread has mentioned both Saville and Glitter - to whom respectively those examples are very relevant

Also one of the girls Harris has been found guilty of touching inappropriately was 7 or 8 at the time - while another (where 7 of the charges centre) was 13 when the abuse started and it went considerably beyond a pat on the bottom
If she really was 13 then there's no excuse for that. But we should remember that they had a relationship that lasted until she was 29, and I for one find it difficult to understand how she could be so badly traumatised by his actions when she was (allegedly) 13 but chose to stay in a sexual relationship with him for another 16 years... At which point she allegedly demanded that he pay £25,000 to avoid the story being given to the press.

I think that we need to make a distinction too between Harris and some of the worst abusers - based on what I've heard, they simply weren't in the same league as each other and Harris, without doubt, was a good entertainer and a talented artist, even though he seems to have been flawed. If even half of what we have heard about Saville is true, he was a predatory paedaphile who had no real talent and who used his position to deliberately create opportunities to abuse children. I don't think there is any evidence that Harris did anything like that.

What concerns me most about this isn't what Rolf Harris did or didn't do, or about his punishment - my concerns are about historic abuse that seems to have been covered up. 2 Inquiries have now been announced by HMG but there is a history of inquiries turning into cover ups, and personally I'm not convinced that guilty people in high office (assuming, which we don't know, that they actually are guilty) will ever be brought to book.

I listened to a radio interview yesterday, when a retired detective inspector said that he had been given the job of investigating the conduct of Cyril Smith. He said that he was later ordered by a more senior officer to hand over all of his evidence, information and notes and never mention the name of Cyril Smith again, or else. It's inevitable, if these things really happened, that some of the people responsible for the cover-ups will still be in positions of influence, and maybe still in positions of power. What chance then of any inquiry getting to the truth, even assuming the will to do so?
 
If she really was 13 then there's no excuse for that. But we should remember that they had a relationship that lasted until she was 29, and I for one find it difficult to understand how she could be so badly traumatised by his actions when she was (allegedly) 13 but chose to stay in a sexual relationship with him for another 16 years... At which point she allegedly demanded that he pay £25,000 to avoid the story being given to the press.

I think that we need to make a distinction too between Harris and some of the worst abusers - based on what I've heard, they simply weren't in the same league as each other and Harris, without doubt, was a good entertainer and a talented artist, even though he seems to have been flawed. If even half of what we have heard about Saville is true, he was a predatory paedaphile who had no real talent and who used his position to deliberately create opportunities to abuse children. I don't think there is any evidence that Harris did anything like that.

What concerns me most about this isn't what Rolf Harris did or didn't do, or about his punishment - my concerns are about historic abuse that seems to have been covered up. 2 Inquiries have now been announced by HMG but there is a history of inquiries turning into cover ups, and personally I'm not convinced that guilty people in high office (assuming, which we don't know, that they actually are guilty) will ever be brought to book.

I listened to a radio interview yesterday, when a retired detective inspector said that he had been given the job of investigating the conduct of Cyril Smith. He said that he was later ordered by a more senior officer to hand over all of his evidence, information and notes and never mention the name of Cyril Smith again, or else. It's inevitable, if these things really happened, that some of the people responsible for the cover-ups will still be in positions of influence, and maybe still in positions of power. What chance then of any inquiry getting to the truth, even assuming the will to do so?

Was this on Radio 2, the one that had Mellor on at lunchtime-ish? Either way, Mellor [who I normally find no mutual agreement with] made the point [and this was before the inquiry was announced btw] that such an Inquiry, should it reveal names, would actually make it very difficult for those names to then be tried fairly in a court of law. Now I am afraid I am not savvy enough with the workings of Inquiries or the courts for matter to know whether that could or would indeed be the case, so curious to know whether that could indeed be an issue.
 
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If she really was 13 then there's no excuse for that. But we should remember that they had a relationship that lasted until she was 29, and I for one find it difficult to understand how she could be so badly traumatised by his actions when she was (allegedly) 13 but chose to stay in a sexual relationship with him for another 16 years... At which point she allegedly demanded that he pay £25,000 to avoid the story being given to the press.

I think that we need to make a distinction too between Harris and some of the worst abusers - based on what I've heard, they simply weren't in the same league as each other and Harris, without doubt, was a good entertainer and a talented artist, even though he seems to have been flawed. If even half of what we have heard about Saville is true, he was a predatory paedaphile who had no real talent and who used his position to deliberately create opportunities to abuse children. I don't think there is any evidence that Harris did anything like that.

What concerns me most about this isn't what Rolf Harris did or didn't do, or about his punishment - my concerns are about historic abuse that seems to have been covered up. 2 Inquiries have now been announced by HMG but there is a history of inquiries turning into cover ups, and personally I'm not convinced that guilty people in high office (assuming, which we don't know, that they actually are guilty) will ever be brought to book.

I listened to a radio interview yesterday, when a retired detective inspector said that he had been given the job of investigating the conduct of Cyril Smith. He said that he was later ordered by a more senior officer to hand over all of his evidence, information and notes and never mention the name of Cyril Smith again, or else. It's inevitable, if these things really happened, that some of the people responsible for the cover-ups will still be in positions of influence, and maybe still in positions of power. What chance then of any inquiry getting to the truth, even assuming the will to do so?

Where were her parents in all this ?
 
"parents" or parent - they don't seem to figure positively much in such cases
 
That would be a dangerous precedent, tailoring punishment to fit the person rather than the crime.
As I said earlier, where do you stop. A get more years in jail just because he is younger than B? If there is a punishment tariff for a particular offence then that must apply equally to all offenders.

Lots of countries have speeding fines that vary according to salary or wealth and speed. Germany, France, Austria and the Nordic countries. Finland regularly hands out huge fines and wasn't a Mercedes SLR driver fined $1m in Switzerland for driving at 180?
 
Saville is still an interesting case. At the moment isn't everything just allegations, none of the evidence has been tried in court, therefore he hasn't been found guilty?

Looking back on some of the old Top of the Pops, with the DJ's arms around the girls seems strange now, but was normal then.
As mentioned by Matt in post 131 (http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/rolf-harris-5yrs-9months.549509/page-4#post-6354317) some of the allegations against Rolf weren't proven yet were accepted as true and we have to believe that as he was found guilty. We weren't in court to hear the evidence.

Yet there's this little nagging bit of me that's reminded of other witchhunts, McCarthy, spanish inquisition, Salem - they were all at it you know.
 
Was this on Radio 2, the one that had Mellor on at lunchtime-ish? Either way, Mellor [who I normally find no mutual agreement with] made the point [and this was before the inquiry was announced btw] that such an Inquiry, should it reveal names, would actually make it very difficult for those names to then be tried fairly in a court of law. Now I am afraid I am not savvy enough with the workings of Inquiries or the courts for matter to know whether that could or would indeed be the case, so curious to know whether that could indeed be an issue.
No, Radio 4, probably around 6 p.m., had an early finish yesterday...

From what I heard, the main thrust of these inquiries will be to find out whether or not cover ups actually did occur, rather than to name names of suspected persons.
Having personal experience of the way in which public bodies are able to cover up their misconduct, simply by working to an established but totally unofficial system in which no real records are kept and where words and phrases have a totally different meaning to the norm, I very much doubt whether either of the inquiries will find any smoking guns.
 
Desperate to find something good in Harris? While Saville was working for charities, guess what he was doing? You think Harris was any different? We're hearing about the crimes with enough evidence for convictions, goodness know what else they got up to.

Have you read the sentencing remarks of Mr Justice Sweeney?
http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/judgments/r-v-rolf-harris/

Have you proof of these libellous allegation?
Perhaps you'd tell us which of the charities he worked for where he had these opportunities, or is this all just guesswork on your part?
With the publicity surrounding the case and the time period since first reported, I would have expected others would have come forward by now.

I still can't place why you've adopted this stance of high morale outrage.
 
Were they aware of any of this, didn't they do anything to protect their daughter :confused:
Are you talking about the BW case - if so if you read back I think there is a comment that the parents encouraged the liaison
 
The thread has mentioned both Saville and Glitter - to whom respectively those examples are very relevant

Also one of the girls Harris has been found guilty of touching inappropriately was 7 or 8 at the time - while another (where 7 of the charges centre) was 13 when the abuse started and it went considerably beyond a pat on the bottom

And as I've already stated those examples should be punished accordingly. Do try to keep up.
 
I listened to a radio interview yesterday, when a retired detective inspector said that he had been given the job of investigating the conduct of Cyril Smith. He said that he was later ordered by a more senior officer to hand over all of his evidence, information and notes and never mention the name of Cyril Smith again

He was on the Jeremy Vine show on Radio Two a couple of months ago (by phone) telling the same story.


Steve.
 
No the Rolf Harris case

No idea - but what I am trying to indicate in general terms is that the care and attention that most parents had in the past has gradually diminished in certain parts of our society and also the parent maybe would have been as "overwhelmed" by the star personality as their children were ……….. these are complicated issues and IMHO it is difficult to ever know the truth especially when the actions took place so long ago……… and when the legal bods start to dominate the proceedings in a courtroom battle……….. you have to have a very good memory to remember in detail what happened so long ago and the minds of children can be influenced so easily.

I am not excusing what has happened of disagreeing with the general direction, all I am saying is that there are so many issues to consider before a definitive explanation can be given.

But there is a witch hunt now and the great British public want more blood.

Hypocrisy abounds …. the police investigate and arrest ………. but they need investigating and bringing to justice - as in JS

The Establishment administer the law but cover up crime ……… as in the missing files

Parliamentarians make the law but then break it

It is all a "mothers b****r" as they say …….. and at the end of the day more unpleasantness and further hardship for the victims are they are used as food for Newspaper stories and big fees by the Lawyers ……..there appears to be no satisfactory outcomes
 
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Lots of countries have speeding fines that vary according to salary or wealth and speed. Germany, France, Austria and the Nordic countries. Finland regularly hands out huge fines and wasn't a Mercedes SLR driver fined $1m in Switzerland for driving at 180?

Having never broken the speed limit in any of those countries, I'll have to take your word for it. However, just because they do it doesn't mean it's "right". I can't argue with a sliding scale for speed, but a dangerous driver is a dangerous driver regardless of his personal circumstances.
 
I listened to a radio interview yesterday, when a retired detective inspector said that he had been given the job of investigating the conduct of Cyril Smith. He said that he was later ordered by a more senior officer to hand over all of his evidence, information and notes and never mention the name of Cyril Smith again, or else. It's inevitable, if these things really happened, that some of the people responsible for the cover-ups will still be in positions of influence, and maybe still in positions of power. What chance then of any inquiry getting to the truth, even assuming the will to do so?

Rochdale council had set up an investigation, with a judge leading it, to investigate accusations of a cover up of Cyril Smith's activities at Knowle View School. That investigation has just been stopped following a request by GMP. That means although GMP are investigating over twenty cases of abuse there, nobody is now actively investigating a possible cover up in this specific case.
 
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