Rip-off Britain - Phone lines

[DorsetDude]

How come ofcom havent come down hard on BT/Virgin whoever charging you £15 odd a *month* for "renting" a bit of wire?!
Its a ridiculous concept is it not? So how are they still getting away with it?
£16 a year, now that would be more reasonable possibly.

 

[pocquet]

The only reason I have a land line is for the internet (sadly not in a cable area) I currently use EE as my ISP as they change £15 for line-rental and unlimited broadband.

The speed is slower than I would like and have had many a time looked at BT fiber-optic to get the faster speeds. The thing that holds me back is the fact they will charge me for line rental so PPI calls can disturb my sleep and dinner.

If they offered Broadband without line rental and no telephone contract (even upping the price of the BB contract by a couple of quid a month if needed) then I would switch instantly

 

[DorsetDude]

If they offered Broadband without line rental and no telephone contract (even upping the price of the BB contract by a couple of quid a month if needed) then I would switch instantly

When they are creaming off £196 off every customer a year on line rental before they even start to provide you with any actual service, you can understand their thinking. Disagree with it, but understand it.

 

[neil_g]

bit of wire, exchange equipment (inc redundancy/backup etc) and the maintenance of, including staff cost..

 

[onomatopoeia]

How come ofcom havent come down hard on BT/Virgin whoever charging you £15 odd a *month* for "renting" a bit of wire?!
Its a ridiculous concept is it not? So how are they still getting away with it?
£16 a year, now that would be more reasonable possibly.

OFCOM set the price that BT Openreach can charge other operators (Sky, talktalk etc. and BT retail) for wholesale line rental. This is approx £9.34/month (includes VAT) and reflects the cost of maintaining the network. It's not just "a bit of wire".

You won't get wired broadband without line rental because you still have to have the line and all the infrastructure and maintenance requirements that go with it. N.B. Virgin do offer broadband without line rental, but the saving over broadband with line rental is very small (certainly not the full cost of line rental only), because they effectively bundle their network maintenance costs into the price of the "broadband only" product.

 

[2blue4u]

It's to spread the cost of supplying and maintaining the infrastructure across all types of customer. Even customers making very few calls still make use of the infrastructure. And without it, call charges would have to be massively higher.

 

[DorsetDude]

It's to spread the cost of supplying and maintaining the infrastructure across all types of customer. Even customers making very few calls still make use of the infrastructure. And without it, call charges would have to be massively higher.

I'm prepared to accept that I just dont thnk they need £196 a year x no. of their customers to do that.

 

[onomatopoeia]

I'm prepared to accept that I just dont thnk they need £196 a year x no. of their customers to do that.

OFCOM have decided they need £112/year/line. This figure has been fairly consistent over the last decade (it's fallen about 10% in that time).

 

[srichards]

If you are with virgin cable then you can choose not to have a phone line at all. I cancelled it over a year ago. I use vonage instead. Works just as well.

I think ofcom were looking at whether adsl consumers could choose to be broadband only as many don't even want a phone service but are stuck with it and often have spurious charges heaped on them if they don't use it, even when they don't want it and are stuck with it to get broadband.

Mobile phone users aren't forced to pay line rental. That infrastructure has to be maintained somehow. With some of the payg services it is considerably cheaper to use a mobile for low use compared to a landline. There should be the landline equivalent of payg.

 

[neil_g]

Mobile phone users aren't forced to pay line rental. That infrastructure has to be maintained somehow. With some of the payg services it is considerably cheaper to use a mobile for low use compared to a landline. There should be the landline equivalent of payg.

you could argue that contract fees (and/or higher cost per minute) are rental or at least subsidise the cost.

remember that BT exchanges are essentially the backbone of UK telecommunications irrespective of your provider. voice and/or data will normally hit at least one part of their network at some point.

 

[Steve Smith]

I think you should only pay a fixed fee for use of a telephone line.

You are permanently connected to the exchange and the costs to the phone company are the same if you make no calls or hundreds of calls. It's not like water or gas where you actually take something from the service.

I used to take issue with BT before I changed to monthly direct debit when their phone bill turned up with a charge for advanced charges. On the times when I was a bit slow paying the bill, a second bill with lots of red text on it would turn up saying I am in arrears. I argued that I can't be in arrears of an advanced charge.


Steve.

 

[Musicman]

If you are with virgin cable then you can choose not to have a phone line at all. I cancelled it over a year ago. I use vonage instead. Works just as well.

I think ofcom were looking at whether adsl consumers could choose to be broadband only as many don't even want a phone service but are stuck with it and often have spurious charges heaped on them if they don't use it, even when they don't want it and are stuck with it to get broadband.

Whether you like it or not, ADSL is a data networking technology founded on voice telecom infrastructure (which most houses were already connected to) it just uses frequencies that are not used for voice calls. You cannot have an ADSL broadband connection without a working telephone line to your premises (and the associated infrastructure costs) - it won't work.

Unsurprisingly, Virgin Cable data goes over infrastructure designed to deliver cable television services and does not require a telephone line to operate, so they can offer a 'no telephone line' option.

 

[srichards]

you could argue that contract fees (and/or higher cost per minute) are rental or at least subsidise the cost.

remember that BT exchanges are essentially the backbone of UK telecommunications irrespective of your provider. voice and/or data will normally hit at least one part of their network at some point.

Which is why all the providers also earn termination fees too to cover those costs.

 

[srichards]

Whether you like it or not, ADSL is a data networking technology founded on voice telecom infrastructure (which most houses were already connected to) it just uses frequencies that are not used for voice calls. You cannot have an ADSL broadband connection without a working telephone line to your premises (and the associated infrastructure costs) - it won't work.

Unsurprisingly, Virgin Cable data goes over infrastructure designed to deliver cable television services and does not require a telephone line to operate, so they can offer a 'no telephone line' option.

BT is moving over to having completely fibre based infrastructure so the ADSL over copper model will disappear over the next few years. A kick from Ofcom would make them roll it out a lot faster I reckon

 

[neil_g]

FTTC still uses copper from the green box on the curb to the premises.

FTTP is expensive and at least a few years from being widespread.

 

[onomatopoeia]

If you are with virgin cable then you can choose not to have a phone line at all. I cancelled it over a year ago. I use vonage instead. Works just as well.

Virgin prices:
30Mb broadband + phone = £15.50 + £15.99 line rental = £31.49
30Mb broadband, no phone = £25

So by cancelling the phone line the saving is £6.49, even though the line on its own costs £15.99. Suddenly the broadband only service gets £9.50 more expensive.


On the BT network, the whole thing is going over to IP, for voice as well as data. The old System X and AXE circuit switched exchanges are being retired - I think almost all have been by now. This means that once it reaches the exchange a phone call will become like much like any other internet protocol connection. The only thing the "phone" part of the connection will do differently from the ADSL part is A to D conversion of the voice signal at the exchange and encapsulating into TCP/IP packets.

 

[ecoleman]

bit of wire, exchange equipment (inc redundancy/backup etc) and the maintenance of, including staff cost..

Exactly this. It's more than just a bit of wire. The rest of the bill is purely your phone calls many of which are free with BT.

 

[cambsno]

How come ofcom havent come down hard on BT/Virgin whoever charging you £15 odd a *month* for "renting" a bit of wire?!
Its a ridiculous concept is it not? So how are they still getting away with it?
£16 a year, now that would be more reasonable possibly.

I can't believe that some photographers charge £40 just for 1 print. £4 would be more reasonable!

There is more to it than a bit of wire!

 

[tijuana taxi]

BT is moving over to having completely fibre based infrastructure

Are they?

Not sure how that would work given the many miles of overhead copper cable and probable new duct required due to congestion in lots of major towns/cities.

FTTP for all is light years away and might never be 100% coverage

 

[joxby]

I ate BT...

£33 a month for 10gb 1.3mb broadband and a phone line

s'pose I'm subsidizing all you BT infinity USERS..

 

[neil_g]

I ate BT...

£33 a month for 10gb 1.3mb broadband and a phone line

s'pose I'm subsidizing all you BT infinity USERS..

I feel your pain, I had 1.5 until I moved house. 19 now

 

[u8myufo]

I'm prepared to accept that I just dont thnk they need £196 a year x no. of their customers to do that.

You know what the answer is then Keith FFS M8 you gonna start the new year as stressed as you left the last one? Chill out

 

[Tigger.ufo]

Paid my line rental a year in advance £114 (£9.50 pm) and then broadband @ £3.25 pm from TalkTalk.

Seems reasonable to me .....

 

[Mikesphotaes]

Paid my line rental a year in advance £114 (£9.50 pm) and then broadband @ £3.25 pm from TalkTalk.

Seems reasonable to me .....

Now up to £126 but another £13 a month gets all my calls and broadband

 

[srichards]

Equivalent Call package on vm is also way over priced when you add on caller display, free landline calls and anonymous call reject which is all included with vonage for £6 a month. Free caller display and acr was a major reason for moving. Think I save about £100 a year altogether.

If you have the TV service then you don't pay such a premium for the broadband.

 

[joxby]

I feel your pain, I had 1.5 until I moved house. 19 now

I had 20 till I moved house, now I gots 1.3.......marrrvelous

Tell you what, its a lot harder going down than up, ya don't miss what you've never had.

Anyway, I'm gonna blow em out, whilst I can't change my "up to 16mb" 1.3mb line, I can change my ISP and get some telly thrown in for the same money.:meh: :indifferent:

 

[srichards]

Rightmove have finally added a broadband speed checker so you can make sure any prospective new place has decent broadband. They're very slow as I'm sure I emailed them with that idea about 7 or 8 years ago!

 

[mrgubby]

The line rental charges are stupidly high even taking into account infrastructure, my kids mobiles cost £8 a month for 300 minutes/unlimited texts/1 GB data with no termination charge.

 

[neil_g]

The line rental charges are stupidly high even taking into account infrastructure, my kids mobiles cost £8 a month for 300 minutes/unlimited texts/1 GB data with no termination charge.

Mobile operators more than likely ( I have no idea of exact costs ) have lower running costs because they don't have lines or exchanges to manage. A few masts (some of which are shared or on the same site) are nothing compared to a nationwide cable infrastructure.

 

[onomatopoeia]

Mobile operators more than likely ( I have no idea of exact costs ) have lower running costs because they don't have lines or exchanges to manage. A few masts (some of which are shared or on the same site) are nothing compared to a nationwide cable infrastructure.

From what I remember from working for Unitel after the PCN auction but before the merger with Mercury, the running costs for the network (even over 20 years ago when the technology was new and the network still being built) the running costs for a mobile network are massively lower than for a fixed line network, for the reasons you say. The mobile networks do have lines, but they are from the masts into their internal network. There is no final mile, no green boxes, telegraph poles, ducting under the roads and all the rest of it.

 

[DorsetDude]

Paid my line rental a year in advance £114 (£9.50 pm) and then broadband @ £3.25 pm from TalkTalk.

Seems reasonable to me .....

That's who Im with and frankly, apart from my wi-fi router being years old, see no real reason to change. Although cable broadband with Virgin would probably triple my broadband speed. (10Mbps -> 28Mbps))

 

[wegotitugetit]

How come ofcom havent come down hard on BT/Virgin whoever charging you £15 odd a *month* for "renting" a bit of wire?!
Its a ridiculous concept is it not? So how are they still getting away with it?
£16 a year, now that would be more reasonable possibly.

stop moaning at least you have a choice

we have one supplier and one supplier only

we can not get these great budget deals with sky etc so frustrating

we are still waiting for KC to install fibre optic the worst part the main hub is 2 mins from my house and looks like the last place there going to install it in arghhhh

 

[Musicman]

stop moaning at least you have a choice

we have one supplier and one supplier only

At least you can get a phone line

A friend of mine was a student in Italy about fifteen years ago, and IIRC it regularly took well over six months for Telecom Italia to set up a new telephone account (unless you happened to "know" the right people, who could maybe rush it through in about three months according to rumour). There was a garage around the corner from her flat in Firenze that had been waiting for nearly two years to get a telephone service.

Made me think Britain wasn't quite so bad after all.

 

[2blue4u]

I ate BT...

£33 a month for 10gb 1.3mb broadband and a phone line

The speed is obviously a function of where you live, distance from exchange etc. The cost is due to you being with the most expensive supplier.

Anyway, I'm gonna blow em out, whilst I can't change my "up to 16mb" 1.3mb line, I can change my ISP and get some telly thrown in for the same money.:meh: :indifferent:

Check VERY carefully before making the move, especially if you believe the advertising hype about 'free' TV. And I can't see it happening on a 1.3mb line anyway.

 

[wegotitugetit]

At least you can get a phone line

A friend of mine was a student in Italy about fifteen years ago, and IIRC it regularly took well over six months for Telecom Italia to set up a new telephone account (unless you happened to "know" the right people, who could maybe rush it through in about three months according to rumour). There was a garage around the corner from her flat in Firenze that had been waiting for nearly two years to get a telephone service.

Made me think Britain wasn't quite so bad after all.

was watching a programme about house builds can't remember the name really well known programme anyway

this couple set up a house / hotel kind of place in the middle of italy mountains

they had 6 months to build it and get planning , yes they build it 1st then they apply for planning if they don't like it they have to rip it down

planning comes every 10 years so if they carried on and 10 years down the line the local government come to inspect and didn't like it bye bye house

 

[onomatopoeia]

stop moaning at least you have a choice

we have one supplier and one supplier only

we can not get these great budget deals with sky etc so frustrating

we are still waiting for KC to install fibre optic the worst part the main hub is 2 mins from my house and looks like the last place there going to install it in arghhhh

Given the council has sold off Kingston Communications and it's now listed on the FTSE, the special status that it enjoys from the Telecommunications Act should be removed.

However, being a monopoly local loop provider like BT, it is under the same obligations as BT with regard to local loop unbundling, so other providers could install equipment in KC exchanges to provide unbundled phone and broadband services in the Hull area if they wanted to.

Just after the turn of the millenium Hull was the place to live in the UK for broadband access as KC got ADSL rolled out way faster than BT did in the rest of the country. The tables have turned somewhat now.

 

[Tigger.ufo]

Just changed my TalkTalk package to £2.50 pm for unlimited broadband only (as I never make calls on my landline, only receive them ) plus paid my yearly line rental of £126 so total monthly payment is £13 over the next 12 months.



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