RIP Kodak - files for chapter 11

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Kris

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Chapter 11 now filed.

:(
 
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We all know that's protection from bankruptcy, right. Not bankruptcy.

Apparently they still have a golden future in suing people.
 
they have a **** load of patents that they can sell.

downsizing is what is required - stop making non profitable products like film lol
 
Several years ago when I edited a website, Kodak took me out one night to a swanky venue and bought me lots of beer. Periodically executives would come up to me and say in different ways "please tell your readers to print more stuff".

As business plans go it was pretty desperate.

The problem with selling their patents is that then they would have nothing. They aren't a major player in the printer / ink market and they don't have any cameras that give much better quality than Smartphones. As an analyst said this morning if he wants a snap he'll use his phone, something food he'll use a high end camera. There is no place for the $100 compact. For all I know they may still own 90% of the film market. But that's 90% of really not a lot.
 
I know it's not the absolute end, but it's still a massive shame, and the recent Economist article on Kodak vs. Fuji is a fantastic insight into how different the two companies went about adapting to the change in markets (and how Kodak did not).
 
"We look forward to working with our stakeholders to emerge a lean, world-class, digital imaging and materials science company"

I better get buying some bricks of tri-x I think...b****r
 
This is indeed very bad news. Is it worth clubbing together to bulk buy something like TRI-X 400? For some reason I've had better luck shooting and scanning that than any other film stock :eek.
 
It's not black and white films that will suffer - it's colour. Kodak has the patents to every colour developer out there, and on that hinges not just stills film but the big player, Motion picture film.

So rather than clubbing together to buy TriX, we should be buying CD3 and CD4 by the ton!
 
And there is NOTHING close to Portra... nothing even remotely close.

(but still worried for T-Max)
 
Musicman said:
The Economist article

http://www.economist.com/node/21542796



Scoff if you like...

The market is a lot smaller than it used to be, but film is actually still one of the profitable parts of Kodak, just not making enough to keep the other parts of the business going.
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Well going on a number of people on TP recently asking about film cameras, I think perhaps film will return with popularity given time.....like many things it will possibly become "fashionable" again.
There has been at least one member returned to film from digital.
I shoot both but without doubt get more fun and satisfaction from film.
This doesn't change Kodaks present position but rest assured film isn't going to dissapear!
 
For sure, I didn't return to film, I'd never worked with it, but that didn't stop me ditching digital entirely in favour of shooting film.

Fuji or Ilford can have my business, they both still produce fantastic films, colour too, 400H looks beautiful in my book.
 
400H just doesn't have the same performance as the Kodak emulsions - and not optimised for scanning. And Ilford doesn't make any colour emulsions at all, so Fuji would be the only manufacturer. Less competition, less product innovation - and less choice, so we can't have our individual favourites if there is virtually no choice.
 
freecom2 said:
400H just doesn't have the same performance as the Kodak emulsions - and not optimised for scanning. And Ilford doesn't make any colour emulsions at all, so Fuji would be the only manufacturer. Less competition, less product innovation - and less choice, so we can't have our individual favourites if there is virtually no choice.
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Even if Kodak stop producing film full stop, I don't think for a second we won't see the likes of tmax,portra and ektar manufactured under a different name. Isn't Arista 400 supplied by freestyle (US) basically Tri-x? And that's just for starters...others will pick up the pieces I'm sure, it's a viable business unless you're Kodak...
 
JonathanRyan said:
We all know that's protection from bankruptcy, right. Not bankruptcy.

Apparently they still have a golden future in suing people.
Click to expand...

"Chapter 11 is a chapter of the United States Bankruptcy Code, which permits reorganization under the bankruptcy laws of the United States. Chapter 11 bankruptcy is available to every business, whether organized as a corporation or sole proprietorship, and to individuals, although it is most prominently used by corporate entities"

"Debtors may "emerge" from a chapter 11 bankruptcy within a few months or within several years, depending on the size and complexity of the bankruptcy. The Bankruptcy Code accomplishes this objective through the use of a bankruptcy plan"

Wikipedia quotes, so taken with a pinch of salt, but still...stinks of bankruptcy to me lol
 
Suppose it's wait and see, don't stock up.....yet.
If TXP320 and Portra go then the alternatives don't look good.
 
Mahoneyd187 said:
Even if Kodak stop producing film full stop, I don't think for a second we won't see the likes of tmax,portra and ektar manufactured under a different name. Isn't Arista 400 supplied by freestyle (US) basically Tri-x? And that's just for starters...others will pick up the pieces I'm sure, it's a viable business unless you're Kodak...
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I think you are muddling things up - Arista 400 isn't a Tri-X clone, it is Tri-X, supplied by Eastman Kodak, and then labelled under the Freestyle name. Same product, different packaging. EK still makes it.

The key thing is, the manufacture of all the emulsions is unbelievably complex, and the quality control is incredibly difficult. PhotoEngineer over at APUG replied to a post in a similar vain, about other people manufacturing the likes of T-Max et al. with the same response - it's a massive operation to get the consistent quality that comes with Kodak film. And colour emulsions come with even greater difficulties. The problem was the scale of the market envisaged was too large and turned out to be significantly smaller.
 
I don't think, for the reasons that freecom2 describes above, that the film part of Kodak can survive. Its not simply someone taking over production- the facilities and production lines will just be too big and complicated for someone to take over and then scale down to an acceptable size. I hope they can as we do need as many players in film as possible but I am not sure how it will work out.
 
Don't Kodak also make some sensors too? The Leica M9 for example.
 
freecom2 said:
I think you are muddling things up - Arista 400 isn't a Tri-X clone, it is Tri-X, supplied by Eastman Kodak, and then labelled under the Freestyle name. Same product, different packaging.
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I'm not muddling anything up, that's exactly what I was getting at. Tri-x being sold under another name by another company.

Just like any other company with multiple interests, it's pretty standard to sell off divisions or arms of the company. It really wouldn't take much to sell off the film manufacturing part of Kodak and maintain it's function. Be it on a smaller output than Kodak anticipated (part of the problem in the first place).
 
Mahoneyd187 said:
"Chapter 11 is a chapter of the United States Bankruptcy Code, which permits reorganization under the bankruptcy laws of the United States. Chapter 11 bankruptcy is available to every business, whether organized as a corporation or sole proprietorship, and to individuals, although it is most prominently used by corporate entities"

"Debtors may "emerge" from a chapter 11 bankruptcy within a few months or within several years, depending on the size and complexity of the bankruptcy. The Bankruptcy Code accomplishes this objective through the use of a bankruptcy plan"

Wikipedia quotes, so taken with a pinch of salt, but still...stinks of bankruptcy to me lol
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I think you'll find that bankruptcy means very different things in different countries, and that 'Chapter 11' is nothing more than a protection against pressure from creditors who haven't been paid on time. Basically, it buys them time to reorganise the business and get it either re-financed or sold under their control, not under the control of the creditors.

But you're right, their debts are greater than their assets so it isn't healthy.

Personally I think it's a shame that the people who invented digital failed to exploit its potential and seem to have ended up being killed by their own baby - I think it says a lot about their arrogance and their management...
 
JonathanRyan said:
We all know that's protection from bankruptcy, right. Not bankruptcy.

Apparently they still have a golden future in suing people.
Click to expand...

Chapter 11 is Bankruptcy Protection, not Protection from Bankruptcy.

I wonder if ebay prices for quality film stuff will now fall (I think likely) or rise (unlikely if you cant get the stuff to load into it).
 
/\ as above General Motors filed for Chapter 11 in 2009, and after a restructure and name change, they are doing very nicely now.

Hopefully Kodak will be able to do the same and save the business
 
Because the US government bailed them out!

Do you think Obama is that stupid?
 
Kris said:
I wonder if ebay prices for quality film stuff will now fall (I think likely)
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Here's hoping!!

I'm only bothered if it bumps up the price of film even more, which it probably will do. :(
 
Not it you're sitting on a mountain of Mamiya stuff.

The view from up here is lovely.
 
Its going to affect me hugely. Better sell off my kit now.

Oh wait, I use Ilford and Fuji film....
 
Make it in Kodak shares and you have yourself a deal.
 
Nah, I'm too sentimental about the stuff.

Stoopid, I know.

Besides, the view, the view!

Ilford? Fuji? Let's hope so, but film production is complex, time consuming, size consuming, skilled, environmentally suspect, with little and increasingly dwindling demand, the biggest player can't get it right...

I saw a documentary on just processing kodachrome, and it made my head hurt.

Not good.
 
Kris said:
Nah, I'm too sentimental about the stuff.

Stoopid, I know.

Besides, the view, the view!

Ilford? Fuji? Let's hope so, but film production is complex, time consuming, size consuming, skilled, environmentally suspect, with little and increasingly dwindling demand, the biggest player can't get it right...

I saw a documentary on just processing kodachrome, and it made my head hurt.

Not good.
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I think the point actually is that the smaller players are in better shapre to make money in the new film market. Smaller companies with smaller production facilities making to a certain cost. We will see less innovation for sure and fewer emulsions too but I think that that B&W (at least) will be around for sometime to come.
 
Aren't film sales on the up anyway? Although never to get close to where they were, surely to a sustainable point? What were Ilford's last yearly's like?
 
Mahoneyd187 said:
Aren't film sales on the up anyway? Although never to get close to where they were, surely to a sustainable point? What were Ilford's last yearly's like?
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I think they are, but not enough to support a behemoth like Kodak that is leaking money left right and centre. The film business is a hell of a lot smaller now than it was in the early years of the millenium! Fuji keep on going with film because they diversified and are doing quite nicely because of it.
 
Fuji may well surprise us all and bring out a new range of films, who knows, they kept producing instant film after all. With Kodak potentially out the way, there's a market share up for grabs
 
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