Returning an item (lens) by post which I say is faulty, but the store says isn't .....

EspressoJunkie

EspressoJunkie

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So to cut a long story short I bought a Tokina 16-28mm lens from a Polish company (Foto-tip.pl). Its a really bad copy, so I sent examples to the company and asked them for a refund. However they say the photos are fine and it's a front focus issue (which it isn't as its crap with manual focus as well). They will accept it back but won't pay the return postage costs (£25ish). I've told them I'm going to Trading Standards but they haven't responded.

I've emailed Trading Standards and asked their advice, but does anyone here have any input? Essentially they are calling me a liar and I'm not paying £25 for the privilege of returning a crappy lens!
 
Couple of questions:
Is it a genuine Tokina, or a copy? Your post is a little unclear.
What's your clear cut evidence that the lens is at fault rather than the operator?
 
Was this from an eBay/Paypal sale? - If so can you not raise a complaint?
Can't see Trading Standards being much help with a Polish seller.
 
It is a genuine Tokina, when I said bad copy I meant in a quality control sense.

The evidence for me is clear in the photos

View attachment 10607

This is a 100% crop where the focus was on the tree, if it was front focussing like they claim then there would be some are of the image that was sharp ( f2.8 , 1/4000 )

Gramps you are a legend! I'd completely forgotten I had paid them via PayPal. I will open a dispute with them and see what they say.
 
You're right about none of it being sharp but I can see where they might think front focusing the issue, it is less blurry nearer the camera. I doubt Trading Standards is going to help you just because of the distance involved, might be best to bite the postage bullet.
 
Steep said:
You're right about none of it being sharp but I can see where they might think front focusing the issue, it is less blurry nearer the camera. I doubt Trading Standards is going to help you just because of the distance involved, might be best to bite the postage bullet.
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I can see that as well, but even so, to say that's within the manufacturers tolerances is (in my mind) taking the p***.

I've opened a dispute with PP and asked for their company directors contact details so we'll see what happens.

I know it's only £25 but I'm pretty stubborn when it comes to matters of principal.
 
Absolutely, there's no way that is acceptable performance from a lens.
 
Paypal will tell you to return the lens for a refund. Postage is your problem AFAIK.

....also needs to be tracked.
 
You always need to pay return postage and the seller has no obligation to offer to refund it at all..

Sorry, but you will have to fork up.
 
Do DSRs still apply to overseas transactions?
 
Without rubbing salt in, why buy from a polish seller?
 
PayPal will refund the whole lot - make a complaint about the extortionate price to send back when it's not your fault. I had the same problem recently with someone in China who sold me a dodgy Canon 50mm f/1.0 - PayPal refunded me all of the money leaving the seller out of pocket, I managed to send the lens back after the full refund as the seller then had every reason to recover the lens. Just persevere and make a fair argument for the PayPal minions to understand.
 
I had a problem recently with a PayPal seller who was refusing to issue a refund. Having paid through PayPal the process in getting back my money was fairly simple. Open a dispute via PayPal and request that the seller returns funds. If they are not compliant then phone your bank. Have your bank remove the direct debit link between PayPal and your bank account and ask your bank to recall any funds that have been debited to PayPal. If the seller still hasn't accepted your request for a refund by this point then they may well attempt to charge your account again, by which point PayPal will charge your second payment method as default. If your second payment method is a credit card then you just repeat the process of ringing up the bank and asking them to call back any funds that are made to PayPal. Once PayPal has exhausted its options in sourcing funds from the buyer it will simply hold the money that was originally sent to the buyer before making a final decision on the "Who's wrong/right?" front. Hope this helps.
 
Eddzz!! said:
I had a problem recently with a PayPal seller who was refusing to issue a refund. Having paid through PayPal the process in getting back my money was fairly simple. Open a dispute via PayPal and request that the seller returns funds. If they are not compliant then phone your bank. Have your bank remove the direct debit link between PayPal and your bank account and ask your bank to recall any funds that have been debited to PayPal. If the seller still hasn't accepted your request for a refund by this point then they may well attempt to charge your account again, by which point PayPal will charge your second payment method as default. If your second payment method is a credit card then you just repeat the process of ringing up the bank and asking them to call back any funds that are made to PayPal. Once PayPal has exhausted its options in sourcing funds from the buyer it will simply hold the money that was originally sent to the buyer before making a final decision on the "Who's wrong/right?" front. Hope this helps.
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Hhmm that will only work if you've selected to pay after delivery (usually 14 days). It's also
Not recommended to do that as by stopping payment which you are suggesting is virtually the same as stopping a cheque, which if PayPal deem you to be in the wrong will chase you for the money.
It's the whole point of paypals dispute process and the reason it should be followed.

To the op if you paid via PayPal they will help to resolve it as the goods are faulty, but under their rules you would have to return the item. Sometimes if it's faulty they will cover the costs (seller covers costs just doesn't know it yet) and all should be good.
Just ensure before sending it you photograph it and any serial numbers and send via an online track able method.
 
The company have yet to respond to the PayPal dispute.

I may have to bite the bullet and pay the postage, but I want to make sure I've exhausted every option first. Its awkward because essentially it's my word against theirs, so I'm not sure what way PP will go.
 
EspressoJunkie said:
Because the lens in question was £160 cheaper from them than buying in the UK!
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And one has to wonder why.
Or learn the hard way.
You'd not get the DSRs to stick with an overseas seller either, EU or not, I suspect.
 
EspressoJunkie said:
Thanks for that info. I've also emailed twice now asking for the directors contact details, and will continue emailing until I get them!
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You're assuming they eventually will?
 
viv1969 said:
You're assuming they eventually will?
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I'm persistant, what can I say? But I agree they'll probably not respond now there's a PP claim involved.

With regard to the price difference, for whatever reason Samyangs and Tokinas seem to be cheaper in Poland than the UK


viv1969 said:
And one has to wonder why.
Or learn the hard way.
You'd not get the DSRs to stick with an overseas seller either, EU or not, I suspect.
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I'm pretty sure they do apply within the EU, but I could be wrong.

Ah well, live and learn. Although if I'm ever in Krakow I'll not pass up paying them a visit!
 
EspressoJunkie said:
I'm pretty sure they do apply within the EU, but I could be wrong.
!
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technically they probably do, but you'd probably have to argue the case in a polish court - which would be a fundamental waste of time and money
 
If it ever goes to small claims court it would be your local court not theirs, which I doubt they would attend. An I doubt even more if you won you would still get paid lol.

If you've opened a dispute through PayPal follow their instructions to the letter, if the seller doesn't respond at all then PayPal will usually refund and chase the seller
 
pitkin2020 said:
If it ever goes to small claims court it would be your local court not theirs, which I doubt they would attend. An I doubt even more if you won you would still get paid lol.
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exactly - a polish company isnt going to give a toss about the ruling of an english court - hence my point that you'd have to enforce the contract in poland to get anywhere (which would gost a lot more than 160 quid)

This risk isnt limited to buying from poland however - its the risk we take everytime we buy anything from outside the UK
 
big soft moose said:
exactly - a polish company isnt going to give a toss about the ruling of an english court - hence my point that you'd have to enforce the contract in poland to get anywhere (which would gost a lot more than 160 quid)

This risk isnt limited to buying from poland however - its the risk we take everytime we buy anything from outside the UK
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thats not what I said, its irrelevant where its enforced its actually getting payment after you have won that is the issue. Just because you won your day in court doesn't mean you'll see the money, if they don't want to pay you'll have to pursue it a 2nd time with the use of bailiffs even more money.

As for it being an english court I believe its enforceable throughout the EU so if it was vicer versa it would still be enforceable. You only issues would arise outside of the EU i.e china you'd be wasting your money taking a chinese company to court.

Anyway its irrelevant, its a paypal issue and they side with the buyer in 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of all cases anyway so as long as the OP follows their directions I can't see why he won't get a refund anyway.
 
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but if its an english company they generally pay up because they know they can be pursued - if they are in poland they arent going to give a toss because how exactly are you going to engage baliffs to pursue them - do you know any polish bailiffs ? or are you going to fly an english debt recovery firm out in order for them to be told to **** off and ehjected by the polish police

Hopefully you'll be right about paypal - but that brings us back to the op - to get a paypalrefund he has to return the goods, and its not likely that the paypal refund will include the return postage DSR not withstanding
 
Like others have said. Follow paypals intructions to the letter. I know when a Chinese company didn't send me something I ordered I followed their instructions and was given a full refund. Even though the company in question didn't respond to my emails. I know it's slightly different to your case in sending something back. But you could always ask PayPal on their thoughts about the return postage. I'm sure you'll win. Because PayPal will hold onto the money for a set period of time before handing it over to the seller.

Good luck anyway.
 
The DSRs do apply to all EU member countries; however they are implemented sufficiently differently as to make them incredibly difficult to enforce as an individual purchaser.
 
Thanks for all the responses. I've fired off an email to their head of retail, but he will obviously have been briefed already if they've given me his details. Polish people are stubborn, and so am I, so I guess its a case of butting heads until one party gives in!
 
Well the Director replied with the same response that the lens in their opinion was correct.

Im done with it all so I'm just going to take the hit and pay the return postage.

I don't know what worries me more though, the complete lack of customer service, or the fact that they consider such a terrible copy of the lens to be acceptable.

Certainly a company, and possibly a lens to avoid.
 
I'd throw the DRS regs at them and then look online for some shots of how the lens should perform.
 
EspressoJunkie said:
Well the Director replied with the same response that the lens in their opinion was correct.

Im done with it all so I'm just going to take the hit and pay the return postage.

I don't know what worries me more though, the complete lack of customer service, or the fact that they consider such a terrible copy of the lens to be acceptable.

Certainly a company, and possibly a lens to avoid.
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Have paypal told you to return it yet?? You must follow their instructions if you don't they may not side with your refund and will leave it at the sellers discretion

best of luck
 
And when will you receive your refund?
 
you closed the dispute before you received the refund?? Not a great move if thats what you have done to be honest as paypal will now see it as resolved, you send the lens back and they decide to stick two fingers up at you then you will have no chance of a refund through paypal
 
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