'Requirements' for county council to use photo for promotion?

Emja

Suspended / Banned
Messages
3,176
Name
Emma
Edit My Images
Yes
I've just had a message via flickr from West Sussex County Council requesting to use one of my photos for a campaign they're running to encourage 'active tourism' in the county. (I posted it here a couple of days ago https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/sunset-surfer.623179/ ) I was pretty chuffed!

It would feature on a website 'West Sussex weekends' over the summer months. At the end of the message they say they would credit me and link to my flickr account and then ask "It would be great if you could let me know if you’d be interested, and what your requirements would be for us to use your photo." I'm not sue how to respond to this last part - has anyone had any experience of this type of request?
 
I'm sure some expert will be along in the minute - but councils do have budgets - and they are used to paying for photography, although will pretend they don't. Might be worth requesting a token payment of £50 for a single image if it's going to be featured quite prominently.
 
On the other hand, if you're happy for it to be used FOC but retain full copyright then don't be put off by those who wouldn't let forth a fart unless someone was paying. :-)
 
If you look on Alamy at similar images it seems their rate for website use for 5 years is £17.99. It really depends on what's it's worth to them. I had a similar request from the BBC a few years, credit to them they didn't go done the 'we will credit you' route, they paid their standard rate (which went to charity I have to add).

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-wi...amic-beach-landscape-summertime-47468599.html

On the other hand, if you're happy for it to be used FOC but retain full copyright then don't be put off by those who wouldn't let forth a fart unless someone was paying. :)
I can understand this but there is moral point on letting businesses use images for free, the 'I will give a credit' doesn't help pros who are trying to make a living from photography. At the end of the day it is down to each individual photographer what they decide to do.

If you do decide to ask for a fee a polite email back will tell you where you stand. It's likely to be either we don't have a budget for photography or they will say a price they normally pay. I'm sure it's another way they have decided to try saving money as everyone else seems to be doing it now.
 
Last edited:
So to summarise......

you could give it away for the kudos or you could insist of a formal agreement and (might) get £50 for it. That £50 will cost many times that to the tax payers though due to them having to accept an invoice, put it through the accounts department etc etc.

Your choice as to whether you are a right wing capitalist or left leaning liberal I reckon :)
 
Surely if they had meant a fee, they would have said "fee"?

By saying "requirements", I wonder whether they are looking for what you would want in terms of credits, allowing use elsewhere, use by third parties, links to your web site/flickr, etc.
 
You could ask what is their standard fee for such a thing and take it from there.
 
the council i work for dont have a budget for photography - they run competitions and get them that way (altho as its so small, they dont get such a great selection of quality useable photos so more fool them)

i think i'd take @Merluza 's approach mysefl
 
Thanks for all your thoughts, folks. At this point in my photography journey I don't think I'll be demanding £50 charges, although I take on board @rob-nikon 's point. More than fees I was thinking of other things I might need to protect myself - copyright of course, but I've also put in a request to see the shot before going live if they intend to change it in any way. I had a shot in the local press earlier in the year promoting a Wildlife Trust competition and some of the papers/magazines did some pretty awful crops/colour changes. It was a bit painful! It's been interesting to read everyone's take on this though - @viv1969 and @brman you made me lol :)
 
Understandable - but do remember - if you don't ask you don't get - if you did ask and they said no - you could still say ah go on then use it - and if they did happen to say yes - you'd have £50 towards your next lens. :)
 
They clearly want it - you clearly have it :) There should be more to the agreement than your name at the bottom of a page :) not that I'm trying to influence you or anything :)
 
Thanks for all your thoughts, folks. At this point in my photography journey I don't think I'll be demanding £50 charges, although I take on board @rob-nikon 's point. More than fees I was thinking of other things I might need to protect myself - copyright of course, but I've also put in a request to see the shot before going live if they intend to change it in any way. I had a shot in the local press earlier in the year promoting a Wildlife Trust competition and some of the papers/magazines did some pretty awful crops/colour changes. It was a bit painful! It's been interesting to read everyone's take on this though - @viv1969 and @brman you made me lol :)

I have had the unfortunate experience of copyright infringement and it hurt as much as being robbed. More to your situation. If your work is good enough for them to want to use as a promotional piece, then its worth paying for. I turned down a graphic design request by a headhunter. I refused and she retaliated. It was lose lose. But it showed the low class attitude of the person asking for a favour. When one has invested a ton of money in equipment and materials, it behooves one to get the investment back, I know of only one way to do that. In reference to my opening statement. In that case I sued without a lawyer, and what they could have had my logo design for $2k ended up costing $20K plus their legal fees. It is absolutely essential to write your terms of usage and include a macro of the image on your invoice, but IMHO never ,nerver, ever give it away for free.
 
If the photo is what they want then they'll pay. The 'point in your photography journey' is one at which you have produced an image that someone else wants. They should pay for their stated and specific use of the image and you should keep all rights of ownership.

County Councils have a huge budget and are generally throwing a lot of money at communication via the internet. The cost of your photograph within that budget will be trivial.
 
I have had the unfortunate experience of copyright infringement and it hurt as much as being robbed. More to your situation. If your work is good enough for them to want to use as a promotional piece, then its worth paying for. I turned down a graphic design request by a headhunter. I refused and she retaliated. It was lose lose. But it showed the low class attitude of the person asking for a favour. When one has invested a ton of money in equipment and materials, it behooves one to get the investment back, I know of only one way to do that. In reference to my opening statement. In that case I sued without a lawyer, and what they could have had my logo design for $2k ended up costing $20K plus their legal fees. It is absolutely essential to write your terms of usage and include a macro of the image on your invoice, but IMHO never ,nerver, ever give it away for free.
Sounds like quite a battle Richard - thanks for the advice.
 
If the photo is what they want then they'll pay. The 'point in your photography journey' is one at which you have produced an image that someone else wants. They should pay for their stated and specific use of the image and you should keep all rights of ownership.

County Councils have a huge budget and are generally throwing a lot of money at communication via the internet. The cost of your photograph within that budget will be trivial.
Thanks for your thoughts Iain. Sorry if I came over all x factor, but I am such a newbie at photography I hadn't really considered any of this stuff. It's great that people like the photographs, but I'm a bit unprepared.
 
Thanks for your thoughts Iain. Sorry if I came over all x factor, but I am such a newbie at photography I hadn't really considered any of this stuff. It's great that people like the photographs, but I'm a bit unprepared.

I had the same thing not so long ago Emma and ended up charging £600... It was the first architectural shot I'd ever taken.

Having photos "used" might give you a warm fuzzy feeling but you've got to think about the wider complications and how it impacts the business of professional photography. That might sound a bit deep when you're just starting out, but when you miss out on jobs because someones giving stuff away from free it's a real kick in the teeth.

BUT, we've all been there and at the end of the day if you do decide to give it to them FOC that's your choice. The first time I was asked to give an image away I did; apart from stretching it (:mad:) they ended up using it much more than they said... Which left me feeling used rather than valued.

(http://www.szgmc.ae/en/news-detail/..._ramadan_and_the_lesser_bairam_eid_al_fitr-93)
 
..................but you've got to think about the wider complications and how it impacts the business of professional photography.

No, she really doesn't.
Unless she herself is a professional photographer, that doesn't need to factor into her decision one bit.
 
No, she really doesn't.
Unless she herself is a professional photographer, that doesn't need to factor into her decision one bit.

Sure, completely omit the next line where I acknowledge it's a bit deep and put it in the context of a professional photographer......:angelic:
 
Sure, completely omit the next line where I acknowledge it's a bit deep and put it in the context of a professional photographer......:angelic:

But it isn't "deep", just a little condescending. ;)
 
Emma, perhaps you could ask the council for a free county wide car parking pass for a year in payment for using the shot! :D

Well done in having the shot selected. (y)
 
So to summarise......

you could give it away for the kudos or you could insist of a formal agreement and (might) get £50 for it. That £50 will cost many times that to the tax payers though due to them having to accept an invoice, put it through the accounts department etc etc.

Your choice as to whether you are a right wing capitalist or left leaning liberal I reckon :)


Not such an easy choice, actually. I'm probably a left-leaning liberal but as a (professional) photographer I think I deserve a payment for my work.

Emma,

You do sound as if you are determined to give this photograph away. There might be very good reasons for this, like (for example) lacking in the confidence required to ask for payment. In the great scheme of things your giving your image away will not affect the professional photography market one little bit. but there are countless examples of this happening all over the world all the time; as a result the value of photographs has fallen to close to zilch.

And don't forget that the person asking you for a freebie is almost certainly sitting at a desk earning a nice juicy salary.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ST4
That might sound a bit deep when you're just starting out, but when you miss out on jobs because someones giving stuff away from free it's a real kick in the teeth.

I am sorry, but I agree with Ruth. It is a fact of life (and business), deal with it or move on. That might come across as overly harsh but it is life.

I write software for a living. Should I really tell amateurs not to write open source code because I want to be paid for it? That would be laughable.
I really don't see photographers as being a special case.......
 
  • Like
Reactions: BBR
Not such an easy choice, actually. I'm probably a left-leaning liberal but as a professional photographer I think I deserve a payment for my work.

As a professional photographer, I think you deserve that to.
But any non-professional making the decision not to charge for their images shouldn't be made to feel like they're doing something wrong, or immoral, or taking food out of the mouths of professional photographers' kids, because they're not.
That's like saying someone who puts up their own shelves is robbing a carpenter :lol:
 
Not such an easy choice, actually. I'm probably a left-leaning liberal but as a professional photographer I think I deserve a payment for my work.

Absolutely, but you are a professional. You need to decide what is best for your business. The op is not a professional. So she needs to decide what is best for her. What others want is not her concern ;)

edit: oops. Ruth beat me to it ;)
 
I am sorry, but I agree with Ruth. It is a fact of life (and business), deal with it or move on. That might come across as overly harsh but it is life.

I write software for a living. Should I really tell amateurs not to write open source code because I want to be paid for it? That would be laughable.
I really don't see photographers as being a special case.......

Absolutely, but you are a professional. You need to decide what is best for your business. The op is not a professional. So she needs to decide what is best for her. What others want is not her concern ;)

edit: oops. Ruth beat me to it ;)

In an edited version of my post I put brackets around the word professional, suggesting that it didn't really make any difference. I still believe people shouldn't give their images away, but in another edited version (see above) I agreed that one more example wouldn't make any difference.

In the carpenter example, by putting your own shelves up you are depriving a carpenter of work, but nobody but you is getting any benefit from those shelves.

In the current example, tourist businesses will attract more customers as a result of using a photograph which they didn't pay for, and make more profit as a result .

Anyway this argument has been done to death so I'm not saying any more (much as I would like to......;))
 
Absolutely, but you are a professional. You need to decide what is best for your business. The op is not a professional. So she needs to decide what is best for her. What others want is not her concern ;)

edit: oops. Ruth beat me to it ;)

She's posted it on a forum and asked others for advice....... You can't pipe up at people offering exactly what she asked for :eek:
 
Still tempted.....

Time and time and time again, whatever the circumstances, photographers have proved themselves to be a soft touch. Is there anyone in this example who is not either already getting paid or stands to benefit from this transaction except the photographer?

is it any wonder that savvy businessmen and others take advantage of photographers?

Definitely going out now..............
 
Still tempted.....

Time and time and time again, whatever the circumstances, photographers have proved themselves to be a soft touch. Is there anyone in this example who is not either already getting paid or stands to benefit from this transaction except the photographer?

is it any wonder that savvy businessmen and others take advantage of photographers?

Definitely going out now..............

Ok, so I will respond :)
You still appear to think Photographers are some sort of special case. Either in being an especially soft touch or being especially deserving of something other don't have.
Think about the software case I mentioned above. A huge amount of the software in use in the world is free or derived from free software. The internet is built on people doing stuff for free. Some of those people get something back financially, some don't. Those that are smart make a very good business from it. ;)
Closer to the subject, what about people doing other stuff for councils for free. Simple things like picking up rubbish. Then what about volunteers - community support, Special constables etc etc. If none of those people did it for free the council (and hence the tax payer) would have to pay someone to do it. Are they taking jobs from the professionals or helping the community?
How is any of this different to someone giving away a picture to a council website?

You are right though, this has been done to death before but no one has come up with an argument that changes my mind :)
 
Seen in a very oversimplified way.

Taking off from what Jeremy says above, there are and can be numerous comparisons to other trades and 'service providers' that if an amateur (volunteer?) comes along or invited to offer their service/product it is entirely their choice as to whether they are happy to have their ego stroked by seeing their work being shown in public (in the case of photographs).............but if the only public recognition is a credit line then then any benefit to the provider is that ego stroking.

If however they are happy to try to monetise the opportunity then IMO good on them because as mentioned the (in this case council) will benefit both directly & indirectly, again that is their choice.

In the first case (remember I said oversimplfied ;) ) they are being taken advantage of, in the latter case they are being rewarded for providing a product that if unique or the only other source is stock that would have to be paid for then good for them. Personally I know which category I would rather be in.

Edit ~in the light of Toby's post. I do draw a distinction between someone who volunteers their time and someone providing a product or service for which the receiver will gain enduring monetary advantage......but I repeat the OP has the choice. Oh, for the record if this was a non profit organisation or a charity with whom I had 'connection' then the supply of the image would be my donation. But where a business transaction there should be a quid pro quo, if even only in kind as suggested by a few others above.
 
Last edited:
If a photographer is giving their work to a friend or a charity - especially a small one - then that is perfectly fine in every possible way. But if the photographer gives their images away to a business or organisation which stands to profit from that gift, then they are having the wool pulled over their eyes.

Toby, the examples you give are different. They are people willingly offering their time to perform a task that benefits the whole community.

I must admit I can't quite get my head around the case of software developers, though. I don't understand how it works.
 
If a photographer is giving their work to a friend or a charity - especially a small one - then that is perfectly fine in every possible way. But if the photographer gives their images away to a business or organisation which stands to profit from that gift, then they are having the wool pulled over their eyes.
not at all, assuming they go in with their eyes open. Plus see my comments on software below .

Toby, the examples you give are different. They are people willingly offering their time to perform a task that benefits the whole community.
I am struggling to see the distinction. A council website is there to help the community is it not? If only to bring in more money to the area, create jobs etc etc.
Even if it wasn't though, see below....

I must admit I can't quite get my head around the case of software developers, though. I don't understand how it works.
Just my opinion but I think it works very well at a number of levels.....
1) People do it just for fun, they like doing it and get a kick from seeing other people using their software.
2) People do it for the kudos. Having their name in the credits and being know as the guy that wrote some cool code is enough
3) People think the publicity will get them known and get them something else they want, eg a job or contracting work
4) People/companies use it as a means of creating business, eg consultancy or support work based around the software or paid for enhancements or improvements
5) people give it away for free but have a donate button in the hope a subset of the users will give them some cash
6) Paid for advertising or pay per click income based around the software or product.
I am sure there are lots more business models.

In reality I think the majority of open source code started out using 1 or 2. ie no financial gain was expected. Often by kids or students in their bedrooms.
It was only later than people realised they could somehow turn it to their financial advantage. Some people have gone down that financial route, other are still happy to write code for free. They both exist happily along side each other. And anyone in the sw community how complained that someone was doing them out of a job by giving away software for free would be seriously ridiculed.

I really can only see one difference between photographers and software engineers. (some) photographers grew up in the old world where supply was limited and things like the ability use a darkroom and distribute your results was a skill the masses did not have. So the skill was believed to be worth being paid for. That attitude still persists despite the fact than nowadays anyone can get a decent camera, edit the pics and publish them from their bedroom. And a lot of those people are now better than some of the "pros".....
This was also the case for software engineers in the very early days (and I can just about remember those days) but the internet and PCs put paid to that a long time ago. So most are now very used to the concept of "free" software. I wrote software in my bedroom on my BBC micro as a student. I would have given my right arm for anyone (including a company) to actually notice and use my software for free. Unfortunately I never wrote anything of much use back then. On the other hand, my mate did the same and went straight from University to Microsoft and ended up retired as a millionaire by the time he was 40.......

Don't get me wrong, it isn't a bed of roses in the software world either. I work in a fairly niche area so our work (and hence income) is fairly well protected from this sort of thing. However, only recently we put in a quote for £12k for some work (and though that was a very reasonable price) only to be told a competitor had quoted £2k. It was fairly clear the competitor was basically getting some of the work done for free and just trying to get into the market.
Was there any point in us complaining? Of course not. All we could do was stress what came with our £12k - experience, quality of work, long term support etc etc. We didn't get the work but that is life :(
 
So to summarise......

you could give it away for the kudos or you could insist of a formal agreement and (might) get £50 for it. That £50 will cost many times that to the tax payers though due to them having to accept an invoice, put it through the accounts department etc etc.

Your choice as to whether you are a right wing capitalist or left leaning liberal I reckon :)

I'm sorry but what a load of rubbish if ever I've heard one, if it's cost the council hundreds of pounds to process an invoice they have bigger problems that paying for a photo, out of interest where do you draw that line as to where you start to charge...oh they need to get a new door hung at a property, it's going to cost £200 should the council not have to pay this? How does that carpenter keep his bills paid? It has nothing all to do capitalism or libralism
 
Back
Top