Remote flash

Desmond

Desmond

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Desmond
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Hi I have a Sony A200 and a remote flash. Both are set 2 wireless. ISO is set to Auto and shutter priority. If I change shutter value from 1/120 to 1/200 the picture is darker. The ISO stays at 400. If I set camera to AUTO the ISO is still 400. I thought that the flash is supposed to communicate and adjust aperture and ISO to compensate and the flash brilliance is also supposed to reduce if needed. The remote flash is set to TTL not MANUAL.
 
Desmond said:
Sorry this is a tough question.
Click to expand...

Need to see some examples really Des, and more information.

All I can think of is your A200 has a max x-sync speed of 1/160sec, so changing to 1/200sec is going to effect that. How much darker? Did the flash fire? Does your flash have high-speed sync capability? What distances are involved? Aperture?
 
Hi Desmond
What model is your flash? the camera settings will stay the same and flash adjusts it's output, some good info can be found for the sony flash system here,
Pete
 
It's not that it's a tough question, there are very few Sony shooters who answer here.

But to add some insight, with auto ISO a Canon defaults to 400 as soon as we switch a flash on too.

You have to remember the most important thing about automation in cameras, they can only 2nd guess so much.

When I put a flash on, I might want to:
  • Put a spot of fill into a bright day lit subject.
  • Add an interesting backlight on a less contrasty day
  • Balance nicely with lower ambient light
  • Completely overpower lower ambient light
  • Or even overpower bright sun (not with a speedlight, but my triggers tell the camera that's what they are).
If I'm leaving ISO on Auto how would my camera know my intentions?

The obvious answer is that as soon as you're mixing light sources you're going to have to take a bit more control unless you're happy with the 'automatic' choices.
My personal rule of thumb is that I shoot AV with auto ISO, but set the ISO if using fill flash, and if flash is my primary light source I use Manual.

In a changing environment I use ETTL and in a static environment Manual flash.
 
Wireless flash does have HSS. Not sure if it means camera has to have any setting?
 
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Hi Desmond
Don't think auto ISO works in manual mode, the first image is in shutter priority and 2 and 3 are in manual, is there a reason you want to be in shutter priority? you will be better off in apeture priority (A)
Pete
 
If my memory serves me well there is a ISO range limit in the menu, above ISO 400 the A200 is bad for noise and 400 is set default high limit, try ISO 200, A mode, let the shutter speed take up the slack, the camera and flash will do wireless HSS.
Pete
 
Desmond said:
Hi I don't think it is a Sony problem bu remote flash usage in general. The flash is the correct one for the camera Sony_HVLF43AM. The Flash manual states that I should use TTL for the flash to auto regulate.

http://www.desmond-otoole.co.uk/test/image_1.php
http://www.desmond-otoole.co.uk/test/image_2.php
http://www.desmond-otoole.co.uk/test/image_3.php

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Not too familiar with Sony, so I can't really say why, but can have a stab at what has happened.

First pic is fine, with a good balance of exposure from the on-board and remote flashes. This may be a happy coincidence!
Second pic, shutter speed has gone over max x-sync and the on-board can't do HSS so has switched out. I would guess the output from the remote flash is about the same as the first.
Third pic, probably the flash has simply run out of power at f/22 ISO100. Was auto-ISO actually working?
 
Desmond said:
Ok I thought of different scenarios. This guy lloks good

http://trickphotographybook.com/?ho...qIyQ_xTTAuJ-IGD_KvOnls-Avwei1AJwx0aAmOx8P8HAQ

The girl falling on the bed with the cat would need to be a fast shutter speed. Would Auto ISO work with Shutter or aperture? Still doesn't explain the powerful flash unless it is already at MAX. The flash was very close to the subject and camera.
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Common misconception. You don't need a fast shutter speed to freeze action with flash, just kill the ambient and the brief flash exposure will do it.

I have to say you don't seem to have grasped the basics before moving to more complex stuff.

The simple start with flash is to get your manual settings nailed then you can experiment, you can't conduct experiments when half the variables are varying unpredictably.
 
Desmond said:
Ok I have ISO Auto and only playing around with the F stop. ISO is fixed at 400 in every shot.

http://www.desmond-otoole.co.uk/test/image_4.php

http://www.desmond-otoole.co.uk/test/image_5.php

http://www.desmond-otoole.co.uk/test/image_6.php

http://www.desmond-otoole.co.uk/test/image_7.php
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At the risk of sounding like a broken record, if you want to experiment, you need to nail down the settings.

  • Manual ISO
  • Choose your shutter speed (below sync)
  • Pick an aperture
  • Experiment with the aperture to see what ETTL is capable of, raise your ISO when the flash can no longer produce.

Alternatively; same as above but setting flash on manual power and altering aperture.
 
Here's a solution that I posted on anther thread about Auto ISO a few days ago.

When using a flash as a main point light source it's important to consider that the ambient lighting around you is now a secondary factor. The power of the flash and distance of the flash is determined by its Guide Number (GN) which does not require the camera to need a high ISO to record the image. Typically I will use no more than a 200 ISO 'manually set' and that is sufficient for most subjects.

By dividing the GN of the flash by a working Aperture that will give you the maximum subject distance. Now, if you set the ISO manually to 400 ISO that will reduce the recycling times of the flash.

A general rule of the thumb for experimentation, and a starting point try a manual setting of ISO to 200, aperture to f/16 and shutter speed to 1/250. Without changing this settings move closer, or further away from the subject until you are happy with the final image. Having tried this. The next logical step is to remain static and open up / close down your aperture until you once again happy with the results.

Shooting at 1/250 is going going to freeze your subject but by reducing the camera speed will also start to bring in the ambient light and background. How much of this is entirely dependent on the slowness of the shutter speeds of 1/30, 1/15 will yield some good results.

In short, Auto ISO takes all the thinking away from the photographer but also stifles creativity and enforces certain limitations.
 
That is as good as far as ambient. But when I use the camera without an external flash. The camera changes the ISO to suit the conditions when using the built in flash. This should happen when I use a wireless flash. If the pictures are dark using a high F number then the camera should increase the ISO from 400 to a higher value. I set ISO to AUTO. The camera has fixed this to 400 and it is not budging on this value. leaving only the external flash strength. Is this how external flash photography has to be? Go to MANUAL and fix EVERY THING. This doesn't happen with built in flash.

Clearly nobody here has used external wireless flash.

I may not be an expert but even I can see it is RUBBISH.
 
Desmond said:
That is as good as far as ambient. But when I use the camera without an external flash. The camera changes the ISO to suit the conditions when using the built in flash. This should happen when I use a wireless flash. If the pictures are dark using a high F number then the camera should increase the ISO from 400 to a higher value. I set ISO to AUTO. The camera has fixed this to 400 and it is not budging on this value. leaving only the external flash strength. Is this how external flash photography has to be? Go to MANUAL and fix EVERY THING. This doesn't happen with built in flash.

Clearly nobody here has used external wireless flash.

I may not be an expert but even I can see it is RUBBISH.
Click to expand...
Clearly you haven't read my posts
I'm beginning to wonder if you have me on ignore :(
 
Desmond said:
Clearly nobody here has used external wireless flash.

I may not be an expert but even I can see it is RUBBISH.
Click to expand...


clearly not an expert

Desmond said:
I thought that the flash is supposed to communicate and adjust aperture and ISO to compensate and the flash brilliance is also supposed to reduce if needed.
Click to expand...


There is your problem. Right there. You sound like you're expecting the flash to do everything for you. And to be everything from the dullest pinprick of light to a small sun. Which it can't
 
Whenever you use flash you are mixing 2 light sources -you can't ignore the ambient, even if you are planning to completely obliterate it.
 
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^^^^ inwardly digest this !

I don't think you are reading my posts either. Whenever you use flash you are making two exposures one for the ambient light and one for the flash. Your auto ISO algorithm is still letting your camera make the wrong decisions.

Take the flash off camera mount it on a stand and technique I described above will work for you but for goodness sake turn off Auto ISO the principles are exactly the same if the flash is mounted on or of the camera or the flash is bounced or direct. You just need to listen to the advice on here and practice.
 
Desmond said:
.... Is this how external flash photography has to be? Go to MANUAL and fix EVERY THING. This doesn't happen with built in flash.
...
Click to expand...

To keep it simple.

When you use the built in flash, the camera assumes you're an idiot*. The flash has very little power and the camera will do its best to allow you to use it to illuminate your subject badly.

When you add an external flash you have much more power, and therefore you have options.

As we've all said, those options could mean anything from completely overpowering the ambient, to just adding a touch of fill.

So, ask yourself: how on earth is the camera supposed to guess what you want it to do?

Rather than assuming none of us have done this, why not accept that actually, we all have, and as we've done it, we have wanted different results. There are dozens of images on my website shot with off camera flash, and you'll see they cover everything from turning the sun into a starburst to dropping a tiny pool of light into a darkened room (but no bunches of keys). Rather than assuming it's stupid to want you to use your brain, how about realising it's giving you the option of creating any image you want.

* it's a crap harsh light that is often seen at the top of sports stadia trying to light a subject 1/4 mile away, and is only capable of lighting up the next 5 rows of seats.
 
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The A200 Auto ISO range is 100 to 400, that is why you are stuck on 400.
 
No I had not ignored what anyone said. I stated the problem according to the manuals with the camera and external flash. The manual for the wireless flash states that i

Manual flash provides a fixed flash intensity irrespective of the brightness of
the subject and the camera setting.
TTL* flash measures the light from the subject that is reflected through the lens.

The flash can be set manually to
The power level can be set to the following.
1/1 (maximum) t 1/2 t 1/4 t 1/8 t 1/16 t 1/32 t 1/64 t 1/128

This clearly indicates that the flash brightness should be auto. and as only aperture is fixed then everything else should be flexible.

What you are saying is that ISO is not auto when using a flash it is fixed to 400. So I can't fix the aperture when using the flash.

Peter the Jet states
The A200 Auto ISO range is 100 to 400, that is why you are stuck on 400. I have not seen this in the manual and I have had it go above 400 when NOT using a flash.

Sorry Guys just checked it out. P.A.S. is 0nly 100 - 400. Is this standard on all cameras including Canon and Pentax or just unique to Sony. Not a good range of ISO.
 
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Desmond said:
No I had not ignored what anyone said. I stated the problem according to the manuals with the camera and external flash. The manual for the wireless flash states that i

Manual flash provides a fixed flash intensity irrespective of the brightness of
the subject and the camera setting.
TTL* flash measures the light from the subject that is reflected through the lens.

The flash can be set manually to
The power level can be set to the following.
1/1 (maximum) t 1/2 t 1/4 t 1/8 t 1/16 t 1/32 t 1/64 t 1/128

This clearly indicates that the flash brightness should be auto. and as only aperture is fixed then everything else should be flexible.

What you are saying is that ISO is not auto when using a flash it is fixed to 400. So I can't fix the aperture when using the flash.

Peter the Jet states
The A200 Auto ISO range is 100 to 400, that is why you are stuck on 400. I have not seen this in the manual and I have had it go above 400 when NOT using a flash.
Click to expand...

Yes you can fix the aperture when using the flash (I do it all the time). We have to do some thinking though to make it work. As we keep trying to explain, you're adding in a whole triangle of variables and Auto really doesn't know what you want to achieve. So it tries to get you to give it a clue. But instead of taking the hint, you're throwing your toys out of the pram and complaining that it refuses to read your mind.:)

Whenever you're adding flash to ambient, you are balancing 2 different exposures, your camera needs you to tell it how you want to play it, if you don't give it the relevant instructions, it'll treat you like an idiot, assuming you don't care about the outcome.

You can set whatever ISO and aperture you like* and a suitable shutter speed, and the TTL on the flash will give you a perfect(ish) exposure of your subject.

*within the confines of the flashes power range

The bit in bold is really important, and until you grasp that, you won't move forward.

The reason we suggest that you haven't read our posts is this...
Phil V said:
When I put a flash on, I might want to:
  • Put a spot of fill into a bright day lit subject.
  • Add an interesting backlight on a less contrasty day
  • Balance nicely with lower ambient light
  • Completely overpower lower ambient light
  • Or even overpower bright sun (not with a speedlight, but my triggers tell the camera that's what they are).
If I'm leaving ISO on Auto how would my camera know my intentions?

The obvious answer is that as soon as you're mixing light sources you're going to have to take a bit more control unless you're happy with the 'automatic' choices.
My personal rule of thumb is that I shoot AV with auto ISO, but set the ISO if using fill flash, and if flash is my primary light source I use Manual.

...
Click to expand...
 
Desmond said:
Hi I have a Sony A200 and a remote flash. Both are set 2 wireless. ISO is set to Auto and shutter priority. If I change shutter value from 1/120 to 1/200 the picture is darker. The ISO stays at 400. If I set camera to AUTO the ISO is still 400. I thought that the flash is supposed to communicate and adjust aperture and ISO to compensate and the flash brilliance is also supposed to reduce if needed. The remote flash is set to TTL not MANUAL.
Click to expand...

I think you have your answer, the camera can only work ISO 100-400 in Auto ISO

I think you are expecting Formula 1 results from a Fiat 500

As a newbie please remember that you are getting some fantastic help here. Your camera will not be popular among the experienced posters here because it is not Pro spec, however they will still try to help.

Mike
 
mike weeks said:
I think you have your answer, the camera can only work ISO 100-400 in Auto ISO

I think you are expecting Formula 1 results from a Fiat 500

As a newbie please remember that you are getting some fantastic help here. Your camera will not be popular among the experienced posters here because it is not Pro spec, however they will still try to help.

Mike
Click to expand...

sk66 said:
It's "unique" to lower end cameras... it's not a "sony thing" either.
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PeterTheJet said:
An 8 year old entry level Fiat 500.

You have to learn to use it within the limits of what the camera will do,

Pete
Click to expand...

I think the low end gear is a red herring though, Auto ISO will never give us the results we want when shooting flash. Whether it's limited to a couple of stops of ISO or it'll allow stupidly high, it'll never know how much ambient we want yo let in (actually with a Nikon and EC you might get somewhere).
 
ISO affects flash and ambient equally. Auto ISO (with TTL) just keeps the ratio constant.
How you might be able to set that ratio (and if auto ISO will even work) will depend on camera model/brand.
 
I can only comment on Nikon iTTL as I've never used a Sony but when you use Nikon's TTL it works differently to the camera metering. the camera can meter across the while scene whereas the TTL meters the centre of the scene and sorts the flash out to expose that correctly. Someone posted a link a while ago to a really in depth explanation of Nikon's TTL but I can't find it at the mo. It explained why I've sometimes had some whacky exposures for subjects when I've set them off centre :(

I take it the OP doesn't do irony....asking for help on off camera flash and then when not getting what he wanted claiming that no-one obviously uses off camera flash!! Well why are you bothered about the answers then???? ;)
And FWIW I doubt anyone answering your questions uses ON camera flash more than off camera flash....
 
Kevjones said:
I can only comment on Nikon iTTL as I've never used a Sony but when you use Nikon's TTL it works differently to the camera metering. the camera can meter across the while scene whereas the TTL meters the centre of the scene and sorts the flash out to expose that correctly. Someone posted a link a while ago to a really in depth explanation of Nikon's TTL but I can't find it at the mo. It explained why I've sometimes had some whacky exposures for subjects when I've set them off centre :(
Click to expand...
Camera metering and TTL flash metering are always two different things... And they don't "talk" as much as one might think. Just like anything else automatic, they can get it wrong at times.
 
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