Reliability - Nikon vs. Canon

[Anorakus]

The original 5D had an issue with the mirror coming unstuck.. Canon service centres would fit clips on either side of the mirror as standard when doing repairs/sensor cleans on 5D's.

You'd have thought Canon would have learned from this

Still, I assume that this is problem that's limited to Canon's amateur and semi-pro bodies, otherwise the pro's would dump Canon in droves and we wouldn't still be seeing a sea of white lenses at big sports events

A.

 

[Nod]

That's something that winds me up - cheaper to buy a new printer than new cartridges.

I have found a liquid that's more expensive than printer ink!!! (And it's 100% legal...) I've been diagnosed as having optical hypertension - a potential precursor to glaucoma - and have been prescribed eye drops to lower the pressure. 2.5ml (1/2 a teaspoon) costs the full NHS prescription levy of £7.85...

 

[redhed17]

I've seen students fitting lenses, and not even bother lining up the dots. They just mash the lens on, and rotate it using brute force until something seems to line up; They'll put a body with no body cap in their bag (not camera bag) with a load of lose change, pens, and other detritus; I've caught them cleaning sensors with the end of their t shirts while just using "B".. you name it.. I see it. I've seen tripods with D3s on them kicked over, 24-70 f2.8 rolling down stairs like Slinkys... it's

Are students shown how change lenses and look after the gear you give them? :shrug:

I'm surprised that you have so much equipment to give them. I would assume someone on a photography course would have a camera. I know there are other types of courses which may use cameras. High end gear I could understand people not having access to that, and you may supply that, but standard cameras.

It is interesting to see how the gear you have is standing up to the wear and tear of, by the sounds of it, not very careful use.

Maybe you should be the test bed for manufacturers, as your users will certainly find some design flaws or manufacturing defects.

Sponsor us and we'll use your cameras to destruction.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Did you watch Fawlty Towers one too many times when you were younger?

I suppose it did look a bit like when he whipped the Austin 1100 with a tree

Are students shown how change lenses and look after the gear you give them? :shrug:

LOL.. of course. The ones that listen are absolutely fine. Any student that damages a camera through neglect is cut off if we can prove it.

I'm surprised that you have so much equipment to give them. I would assume someone on a photography course would have a camera.

Around half do usually. While most have some kind of camera, they still rely on stores for higher end bodies, and almost all of them don't have a full compliment of lenses. Our equipment levels are one of our USPs... and for those that deserve it, it is a great thing to be able to offer.

I know there are other types of courses which may use cameras. High end gear I could understand people not having access to that, and you may supply that, but standard cameras.

We also run BTEC courses, where a great many students don't have a SLR, hence the larger numbers of lower end cameras vs. higher end ones.

It is interesting to see how the gear you have is standing up to the wear and tear of, by the sounds of it, not very careful use.

TBH, it's a great testament to how well put together ALL cameras are these days.

 

[AJQS]

Ooooh, have any of the D200s lost their pop up flashes yet? Every other Fuji S5 you come across has a duff one (including mine), not seen a duff D200 yet though. Would make sense that S5s were made from reject D200s!

 

[EspressoJunkie]

I've never had a problem with plastic cameras. I think people place far too much importance on "pro" build quality. Most people cosset and baby their equipment, yet extol the virtues of "professional" build quality. If the D800 was plastic, I'd have still bought it, and not given it a second thought. I don't plan on dropping it, and I'm not a press photographer, so what does it matter? My D600 is part plastic, and it will last as long as my D800.

This was one of my concerns when I decided to move to the D600 from a D700. Having actually got the D600 I realise that (for me anyway) it's really not an issue at all.

There's certainly a difference in weight but not so much in build, and the D600 is far from 'plasticky', it feels as solid as any other camera I've used. Pro build is clearly an advantage in certain situations, but I agree with you that it is much less of a factor than it's made out to be.

 

[omens]

I have found a liquid that's more expensive than printer ink!!! (And it's 100% legal...) I've been diagnosed as having optical hypertension - a potential precursor to glaucoma - and have been prescribed eye drops to lower the pressure. 2.5ml (1/2 a teaspoon) costs the full NHS prescription levy of £7.85...

Depending on the actual drug, the drops may well be cheaper than the levy. But remember, you're not paying for the medication, you're paying a prescription charge. FWIW, if you have to have more than 12-13 prescriptions a year, it will work out cheaper to buy a prepaid card.

 

[realspeed]

Simple answer. if students can afford to pay thousands of pounds to go to UNI then let them buy their own cameras they can afford it. Two big advantages the first being they get to know their own gear and second cut the Uni expenses and time doing repairs. If they want their own cameras repaired at uni then let them pay for it. It may also teach them to respect photographic equipment more.
if they want to go on a BTEC course then one of the conditions should be they use their own gear, if they don't have it then their commitment to photography hits zero.

 

[StewartR]

I'm sure Stewart from LFH has said he's had to repair Nikon lenses far more than Canon.

Doesn't ring any bells with me, I'm afraid. We have far more Canon lenses than Nikon, so in absolute terms the number of Canon repairs is almost certainly much higher. But the number of repairs per lens per year? I don't know. However, I'm sure the database will tell me. Stay tuned to this channel...

 

[Pookeyhead]

Ooooh, have any of the D200s lost their pop up flashes yet?

Not that I'm aware of, no. They don't get used much any more though. The D7000s seem to be the mid range camera of choice.. probably because of the greater res.

This was one of my concerns when I decided to move to the D600 from a D700. Having actually got the D600 I realise that (for me anyway) it's really not an issue at all.

Of course it isn't. It makes me laugh when amateurs decry plastic cameras, yet they cosset and care for them, and only use them carefully. Why would a plastic camera cause an issue under those operating conditions? It's a bit of a macho thing: People like "Pro" cameras.. makes them feel better

Simple answer. if students can afford to pay thousands of pounds to go to UNI then let them buy their own cameras they can afford it.

We advise them not to. Buy what camera? It's usually half way through level 5 when they decide what exactly they want to do within the industry. If they decide to be an architectural photographer, a DSLR will be next to useless for them. If they want to be a landscape photographer, they really should be using larger formats. If they work predominantly in a studio, they may want to consider medium format... and while they may not be able to afford such gear even after graduation, we are obliged to provide them with the gear to produce a portfolio ready for industry... which is why we also have medium format digital gear they can use too.

In this day and age of high fees... students feel that fee should include everything. That's just a fact. If YOU want to come into our uni and advise students that if they can afford fees they should buy their own gear... you are more than welcome. I'll make sure there's a talented paramedic on hand The fact is they CAN'T afford fees... it's a loan.

Two big advantages the first being they get to know their own gear

No offence, but a professional should be able to use ANY gear, and a wide range of gear.

and second cut the Uni expenses and time doing repairs.

Our brilliant facilities is one reason so many study here. Take that away and we'll actually lose out financially as student numbers drop. Each student pays £6500... each year (cheap compared to some), across all levels, we have close to 140 students across all three years... go do the maths In my head, quickly, that's around a million a year just for one course. If we only got 20 students per year because we're just average... we'll have only 60 students a year... what's that? 400K? We don't spend THAT much on repairs

If they want their own cameras repaired at uni then let them pay for it.

They pay £100 per academic year as a "hire fee". In reality, this generates a repair fund, which mostly covers it.. not always.. but usually. It actually, (see above) DOES make sense to let them use our gear when you view the big picture.

 

[Gary Coyle]

Of course it isn't. It makes me laugh when amateurs decry plastic cameras, yet they cosset and care for them, and only use them carefully. Why would a plastic camera cause an issue under those operating conditions? It's a bit of a macho thing: People like "Pro" cameras.. .

Ive owned the plastic mount D7000 and the D600 and neither of those Cameras gave me any confidence when attached to a Nikon 400mm f/2.8 AF-S with a t/con attached, using a monopod and turning the rig from landscape to portrait orientation put so much pressure on the lens mount that the D7000 mount buckled and had to go in for repair, the D600 fared a little better but was sent back as not satisfactory for the job, you could actually hear the mount giving in and i bet a full days use would also have seen this mount give up the ghost

 

[Pookeyhead]

Ive owned the plastic mount D7000 and the D600 and neither of those Cameras gave me any confidence when attached to a Nikon 400mm f/2.8 AF-S with a t/con attached, using a monopod and turning the rig from landscape to portrait orientation put so much pressure on the lens mount that the D7000 mount buckled and had to go in for repair, the D600 fared a little better but was sent back as not satisfactory for the job, you could actually hear the mount giving in and i bet a full days use would also have seen this mount give up the ghost

Something wrong there. Admittedly I don't use the 400mm 2.8, but the 70-200 2.8 rotates within the collar really smoothly and doesn't need much effort at all. I'm struggling to see how it stresses the lens mount. I had a D7000 for years and used with this lens quite a lot. I could rotate it within the collar using my little fingers!

Also, the force applied would be torsional stress not shear stress. I can imagine a plastic lens mount failing if it took the weight of 400mm 2.8 lens by not using the tripod collar mount and instead mounting the body on a tripod, yeah... but rotational stress?

I've just applied torsional stress to my D600 lens mount by fitting a lens, gripping that lens hard, and twisting really quite hard: Nothing. Are you saying the forces needed to rotate the lens within it's collar are greater than that?

I'm baffled. I'm not saying I don't believe you.. I'm just at a loss to see how it happens.


Also Gary.. you're not an amateur, and as a professional sports photographer, need pro gear, for a wide range of reasons I'm referring to amateurs who perhaps shoot twice a week... carefully place the camera on a tripod or carefully take it out of their padded camera bag, take a few landscapes, then go home to clean their equipment. A plastic camera would be no detriment to users like that, yet many still aspire to owing proper professional gear because if it's build quality... as if a plastic camera would be denying them something only a full metal chassis could provide.

 

[Deleted member 49549]

Not that I'm aware of, no. They don't get used much any more though. The D7000s seem to be the mid range camera of choice.. probably because of the greater res.






Of course it isn't. It makes me laugh when amateurs decry plastic cameras, yet they cosset and care for them, and only use them carefully. Why would a plastic camera cause an issue under those operating conditions? It's a bit of a macho thing: People like "Pro" cameras.. makes them feel better






We advise them not to. Buy what camera? It's usually half way through level 5 when they decide what exactly they want to do within the industry. If they decide to be an architectural photographer, a DSLR will be next to useless for them. If they want to be a landscape photographer, they really should be using larger formats. If they work predominantly in a studio, they may want to consider medium format... and while they may not be able to afford such gear even after graduation, we are obliged to provide them with the gear to produce a portfolio ready for industry... which is why we also have medium format digital gear they can use too.

In this day and age of high fees... students feel that fee should include everything. That's just a fact. If YOU want to come into our uni and advise students that if they can afford fees they should buy their own gear... you are more than welcome. I'll make sure there's a talented paramedic on hand The fact is they CAN'T afford fees... it's a loan.





No offence, but a professional should be able to use ANY gear, and a wide range of gear.



Our brilliant facilities is one reason so many study here. Take that away and we'll actually lose out financially as student numbers drop. Each student pays £6500... each year (cheap compared to some), across all levels, we have close to 140 students across all three years... go do the maths In my head, quickly, that's around a million a year just for one course. If we only got 20 students per year because we're just average... we'll have only 60 students a year... what's that? 400K? We don't spend THAT much on repairs





They pay £100 per academic year as a "hire fee". In reality, this generates a repair fund, which mostly covers it.. not always.. but usually. It actually, (see above) DOES make sense to let them use our gear when you view the big picture.

+1 to the macho thing, im amazed at the amount of photographers (particularly on dpreview) that have such big hands and say they can't use a d7000 or similar!

 

[Gary Coyle]

Something wrong there. Admittedly I don't use the 400mm 2.8, but the 70-200 2.8 rotates within the collar really smoothly and doesn't need much effort at all. I'm struggling to see how it stresses the lens mount. I had a D7000 for years and used with this lens quite a lot. I could rotate it within the collar using my little fingers!

Also, the force applied would be torsional stress not shear stress. I can imagine a plastic lens mount failing if it took the weight of 400mm 2.8 lens by not using the tripod collar mount and instead mounting the body on a tripod, yeah... but rotational stress?

I've just applied torsional stress to my D600 lens mount by fitting a lens, gripping that lens hard, and twisting really quite hard: Nothing. Are you saying the forces needed to rotate the lens within it's collar are greater than that?

I'm baffled. I'm not saying I don't believe you.. I'm just at a loss to see how it happens.


Also Gary.. you're not an amateur, and as a professional sports photographer, need pro gear, for a wide range of reasons I'm referring to amateurs who perhaps shoot twice a week... carefully place the camera on a tripod or carefully take it out of their padded camera bag, take a few landscapes, then go home to clean their equipment. A plastic camera would be no detriment to users like that, yet many still aspire to owing proper professional gear because if it's build quality... as if a plastic camera would be denying them something only a full metal chassis could provide.

David, you really need to get hold of the older 400mm f/2.8 AF-S and stick it on a D7000 and turn it to portrait orientation, thats a massive heft of weight to shift round with a plastic mount, the 70-200mm has no comparisson, bear in mind that i need to shift orientation of the camera pretty quickly to keep up and catch the action and i need to shift it back and forth on dozens/hundreds of occasions a game.

Nikon did also improve the 400mm lens collar on the never VR versions of this lens as users were reporting that even with the D series pro spec cameras they were noticing difficulty in turning the lens., the rollers arent user serviceable which is a pain

I seem to recall Canon had similar issues with the "rollers" within their 400mm f/2.8 collar, i think they changed from plastic to all metal rollers or from ball bearings to actual rollers

strictly speaking it's more of a lens issue than the D7000 mount issue but it does/did highlight the weakness in the D7000 mount.

 

[StewartR]

We advise them not to. Buy what camera? It's usually half way through level 5 when they decide what exactly they want to do within the industry. If they decide to be an architectural photographer, a DSLR will be next to useless for them. If they want to be a landscape photographer, they really should be using larger formats. If they work predominantly in a studio, they may want to consider medium format... and while they may not be able to afford such gear even after graduation, we are obliged to provide them with the gear to produce a portfolio ready for industry... which is why we also have medium format digital gear they can use too.

...

In this day and age of high fees... students feel that fee should include everything. That's just a fact. ... The fact is they CAN'T afford fees... it's a loan.

...

Our brilliant facilities is one reason so many study here. Take that away and we'll actually lose out financially as student numbers drop. Each student pays £6500... each year (cheap compared to some), across all levels, we have close to 140 students across all three years... go do the maths In my head, quickly, that's around a million a year just for one course. If we only got 20 students per year because we're just average... we'll have only 60 students a year... what's that? 400K? We don't spend THAT much on repairs

...

They pay £100 per academic year as a "hire fee". In reality, this generates a repair fund, which mostly covers it.. not always.. but usually. It actually, (see above) DOES make sense to let them use our gear when you view the big picture.

I've just got to say I'm impressed with the attitude and the setup you have there!

 

[Pookeyhead]

David, you really need to get hold of the older 400mm f/2.8 AF-S and stick it on a D7000 and turn it to portrait orientation, thats a massive heft of weight to shift round with a plastic mount,

Like I said Gary.. I would never doubt you... you're a sports photographer... something I've never done... nor have I used a Nikkor 400mm f2.8 lens.. not that I recall anyway. I am just surprised.... actually.. amazed. Having said that... I can only assume that most peopel with a D7000 will not be spending such a massive amount of money on a lens like that either. I'm surprised you were using it actually. Why was that? Crop factor magnification reasons? Anyway.. it would seem that my experiences with students, and yours with massive lenses DOES seem to indicate a weakness of the D7000's mount.

I've just got to say I'm impressed with the attitude and the setup you have there!

We're not alone in this attitude. The best degree courses will be well equipped.. even if not to the same level as our place. You can't turn out professional studio photographer who can't use MF gear and lighting.. and you can't turn out an architectural photographer who has never used camera movements. Just stands to reason really.

There are courses that aren't as diligent... but that's their problem

 

[srichards]

It also excludes the less well off from studying too if they have to pay a huge amount for equipment.

In my old department they were always on about getting rid of all the infrastructure we had and forcing students to buy laptops... forgetting that with several hundred students with different laptops, different versions of windows, updates etc then you'd just created a massive support problem compared to having a few labs with a standard set of software which was sufficient for all their needs.

 

[Pookeyhead]

It also excludes the less well off from studying too if they have to pay a huge amount for equipment.

^This... thank you. I forgot to mention that.

 

[redhed17]

I can understand that learning to use MF cameras and lenses could be beneficial, but you can be a Pro and never need to use a MF camera. Better to have that skill than not though.

I can also see that some exotic and expensive lenses could be useful, but I think everyone on a photography course should have a camera. :shrug:

Do you have a large range of lenses available for students as well Pookeyhead?

Having all the equipment for students to use obviously works for your university, and is even a feature that attracts more students, so obviously pays for itself.

 

[StewartR]

I'm sure Stewart from LFH has said he's had to repair Nikon lenses far more than Canon.

OK, some data.

We only started keeping a comprehensive log of all our repairs in August 2010. I'm sure I could reconstruct it all the way back to the founding of the business, because I have all the repair paperwork in the asset management file, but I can't be bothered.

Since August 2010 we've sent 285 Canon lenses off for repair, and 90 Nikon lenses. Almost exactly 3x as many Canon as Nikon. Wow! Does that mean Canons are more unreliable?

No. I also dug into the operational database to look at the number of hires. Over the same date range it's 12,585 Canon and 4,131 Nikon - again almost exactly 3x as many Canon.

If we count the number of hires per repair, it looks like this:

• Canon = 44.2
• Nikon = 45.9
• Sigma = 46.8
• Tokina = 39.9

The Canon/Nikon figures are so close, the difference between them is not statistically significant. And the Sigma/Tokina figures are based on smaller samples, so I don't think the differences there are statistically significant either.

 

[Xjacktar]

+1 to the macho thing, im amazed at the amount of photographers (particularly on dpreview) that have such big hands and say they can't use a d7000 or similar!

I think disliking the ergonomics of the smaller camera is a valid complaint, whatever your hand size.

Also ... on my D200 and D700, I like to use rear button focusing for BIF and macro, but I can't on the D7000. Since my right eye is weak, I must use the left eye at the viewfinder; then, using the rear button puts my thumb knuckle in my right eye socket - can't be done.

 

[treeman]

OK, some data............

Thanks Stewart, sorry for misquoting you, must have been somewhere else I read it.

 

[Deleted member 49549]

I think disliking the ergonomics of the smaller camera is a valid complaint, whatever your hand size.

Also ... on my D200 and D700, I like to use rear button focusing for BIF and macro, but I can't on the D7000. Since my right eye is weak, I must use the left eye at the viewfinder; then, using the rear button puts my thumb knuckle in my right eye socket - can't be done.

Hi david,

On my d7100 you can program the fn button on the front of the camera for af-on.

 

[maninsuitcase]

Like I said Gary.. I would never doubt you... you're a sports photographer... something I've never done... nor have I used a Nikkor 400mm f2.8 lens.. not that I recall anyway. I am just surprised.... actually.. amazed. Having said that... I can only assume that most peopel with a D7000 will not be spending such a massive amount of money on a lens like that either. I'm surprised you were using it actually. Why was that? Crop factor magnification reasons? Anyway.. it would seem that my experiences with students, and yours with massive lenses DOES seem to indicate a weakness of the D7000's mount.

I use a 300mm 2.8 VR II with a D7000, while not 400 big it's hardly small. The mount is always something I've worried about so I do have to pay attention to how I pick up that combo.

I don't baby the kit that much, the body has been bashed a fair bit now just walking about with it over my shoulder with a 17-55. The 300 has a cover to help protect it and I don't recall any knocks but it's not that old yet.

However the 300s AF failed at the end of last month (2 months old at that point) and one of the things Nikon said was basically I should be using a D3 or D4 camera with it. They then sent it back for it to last a whole 15 minutes before intermittent became all the time. It's currently back with Nikon (well Johnsons at Nikons cost) getting a better look.

Camera works just fine with the 17-55 ftw so I don't think I've broken the mount.

 

[Xjacktar]

Hi david,

On my d7100 you can program the fn button on the front of the camera for af-on.

Cheers for that Phil. Apparently you can on the D7000 as well. I did not know that. Have to try and see if it 'falls to hand' naturally.

Update:
Tried it; would not work. Obviously 'AF-Lock' is not the same as 'AF-On'.

 

[Pookeyhead]

I can understand that learning to use MF cameras and lenses could be beneficial, but you can be a Pro and never need to use a MF camera.

If you are serious about commercial studio work, you should really know how to use MF gear, as that's what is mainly used.

I can also see that some exotic and expensive lenses could be useful, but I think everyone on a photography course should have a camera. :shrug:

Quite a lot do, but many don't. It's a BA (Hons) Degree.. many come from a fine art background, and fell in love with photogaphy because there was a lens based module on their Fine Art foundation course etc.

Many DO have a camera, but perhaps only a low end one... an old D90 or something, so obviously would rather use a more modern camera with more resolution.

Do you have a large range of lenses available for students as well Pookeyhead?

Yep.. everything from full frame fish eye to 600mm monsters for both Nikon and Canon.

Having all the equipment for students to use obviously works for your university, and is even a feature that attracts more students, so obviously pays for itself.

Exactly. It's heart-breaking to see gear being abused, but it's not MY gear, and it does make financial sense to be able to say we're probably amongst the best equipped colleges in the country. They see the gear, they see the studios (bespoke studios for Still life, divided into bays, each one equipped with a Sinar P2), the fashion studios (air conditioned and equipped with changing room and 10 Bowens Gemini mono blocs in each.. all accessories from grids, snoots, beauty dishes, soft boxes) and also Broncolor packs and full size ring flash), they see the darkrooms, scanners, printers etc.. and they decide to come here. It also means they are conversant with the stuff they will actually be expected to be able to use when they get their first assisting job etc. It is a good thing to be able to say with confidence, "Yes, I have used Broncolor, and bowens lighting, Sekonic meters, Hasselblad and Phase One medium format gear. I have good colour workflow skills, and am familiar with large format printing up to and including Epson 9900s." That gets your foot in the door, definitely.

It really does make sense... plus I get to use it all too

OK, some data.
[*]Canon = 44.2
[*]Nikon = 45.9
[*]Sigma = 46.8
[*]Tokina = 39.9
[/LIST]

I've already said we have to repair as many Nikon Lenses as Canon lenses though

 

[redhed17]

I've already said we have to repair as many Nikon Lenses as Canon lenses though

And are you charged the fee to cover breakages? Not that you would ever do such a thing of course. It would be nice to have all those toys to play with though.

Seriously, thanks for replying.


Just a thought, with so much gear, and some people treating the gear badly, dirty sensors, would I assume, be a problem. Do the students clean them, does you establishment clean them, or do you send them out to be cleaned? :shrug:

 

[Gary Coyle]

Like I said Gary.. I would never doubt you... you're a sports photographer... something I've never done... nor have I used a Nikkor 400mm f2.8 lens.. not that I recall anyway. I am just surprised.... actually.. amazed. Having said that... I can only assume that most peopel with a D7000 will not be spending such a massive amount of money on a lens like that either. I'm surprised you were using it actually. Why was that? Crop factor magnification reasons? Anyway.. it would seem that my experiences with students, and yours with massive lenses DOES seem to indicate a weakness of the D7000's mount

Purely for the crop factor David, im one of those eagerly waiting the true replacement for the D300/300S, ive always owned a DX as well as an FX, the d300 while very good doesnt cut it in the high ISO stakes for me, well not for the last few years after being spoiled by the D700/D3/D3S cameras.

Seems Nikon arent bothered about the "semi pro" range of DX cameras aymore, was sort of hopng the D7100 might be of use but thats not got the pro spec built body the D300 had. Sigh.

 

[Pookeyhead]

And are you charged the fee to cover breakages?

No

Just a thought, with so much gear, and some people treating the gear badly, dirty sensors, would I assume, be a problem. Do the students clean them, does you establishment clean them, or do you send them out to be cleaned? :shrug:

We clean them and ask students not to unless they've been shown on a one to one basis, and use the correct gear. Usually though, they don't care if the sensor is dirty.

Purely for the crop factor David, .

I assumed that was the case. Thanks.