Reliability - Nikon vs. Canon

Pookeyhead

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I've been doing some work on our stores audit, and have been looking at repair costs for the department. It makes interesting reading.

As you can imagine, if you want the reliability of equipment testing... just give it to a bunch of students. While professionals will use equipment VERY hard, especially press and sports guys... students always find the most creative ways to Abuse equipment :)

I'm only including digital SLRs in this, but, over the last academic year we had 18 Canon SLRs in need of repair (2x EOS 60D, 12x EOS 7Ds, and 4x EOS 5DMkIIs) vs. 2 Nikons (both D7000s).

Use between Canon and Nikon is around equal across the department and all academic years.

Out of the 18 canon repairs, 11 of them were reflex mirror replacement after the mirrors simply fell off the frame holding it (almost all the 7Ds and one 60D), 4 shutter needed replacing, and the remainder were cosmetic repairs due to physical damage.

Both Nikons were to repair physical damage (broken lens mounts in both cases - whacked against walls with heavy lenses attached). No Nikons were in need of repair due to operational issues.

Our lens fatality is equally high for both marques :)

Make of that what you will. However, it's logical to assume that:

  • Nikon D7000s have weak lens mounts
  • EOS 7Ds have a flaw in reflex mirror design (or at least that batch did)

That much seems apparent.

[edit]
I may edit this post as I turn up more surprising data, as I think this is probably the ultimate real world testing methodology. If it has a physical weakness... a student will find it.
 
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Maybe it's time the students supplied there own kit ;) they might look after it better :suspect: :rules:

That said its disappointing if the use is proportionate across both makes to see such a wide variance, it would be interesting to know other factors such as if bodies suffered multiple failures and how much use bodies had received, in this I mean how close to there expected useful life were these cameras
 
MWHCVT said:
Maybe it's time the students supplied there own kit ;) they might look after it better :suspect: :rules:
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Damned right they would!

MWHCVT said:
That said its disappointing if the use is proportionate across both makes to see such a wide variance, it would be interesting to know other factors such as if bodies suffered multiple failures and how much use bodies had received, in this I mean how close to there expected useful life were these cameras
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Like I said.. I'll keep digging. If I go further back I will find records of most marques having repairs. What I found interesting was the propensity for D7000 lens mounts to fail, and 7D mirrors to drop off!!!


Both those are worrying.

The D7000s were all bought at the same time, and are around 10 months old. The 7Ds around the same age.

The only problem with this data is that as the cameras were bought at the same time, there are a large amount of sequential (or close) serial numbers, and hence same batch examples.


Feel free to take all of this with a pinch of salt of course... I just thought it would make interesting reading.
 
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How many canon cameras are there altogether and how many nikons? If same numbers of each then it doesn't say much for canon reliability if equipment is a similar age/spec
 
srichards said:
How many canon cameras are there altogether and how many nikons? If same numbers of each then it doesn't say much for canon reliability if equipment is a similar age/spec
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Digital SLR inventory:

12x EOS 400D
13x EOS 60D
15x EOS 7D
10x EOS 5D
6x EOS 5D MkII
2x EOS 5D MkIII

12x D5200
14x D7000
10x D200
13x D300s
3x D800
5x D3

That's what there are invoices for.

treeman said:
Even if interesting reading, this is soooo going to end in tears. :)

I'm sure Stewart from LFH has said he's had to repair Nikon lenses far more than Canon.
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Can't comment on that, as all our lenses get smashed to **** :)


The MKIIIs and D800s are recent acquisitions... so discount those from the equation.
 
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I don't see that you can blame the D7000 for having a weak mount on just two data points, it could easily be coincidence. The mirror on the 7D is slightly more worrying...
 
Nawty said:
I don't see that you can blame the D7000 for having a weak mount on just two data points, it could easily be coincidence. The mirror on the 7D is slightly more worrying...
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True... but smashing lenses against walls while mounted to the camera seems to be the massive majority of lens failure reasons... and this is across the board, and we've only had lens mounts fail on D7000s which does point towards a lens mount weakness. I'm sure if you don't smash the lens/camera combo against walls.. it is not a problem :)
 
From that data it would suggest canon have a serious manufacturing defect present in the 7d!
 
srichards said:
From that data it would suggest canon have a serious manufacturing defect present in the 7d!
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POSSIBLY... as these were all bought at the same time... and could be a batch issue. Like I said... this is not definitive data.. just indicative.

[edit]

Also... please bear in mind that I am not exaggerating regarding the levels of abuse these camera get. Most of our cameras would consider 2 weeks with a top press photographer as a peaceful holiday :)
 
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That's fair enough, but I can't see that the mirror assembly gets directly impacted on by a muppet user - once the shutter button is pressed it just goes through an actuation process. Whether the user has pampered it or not, if the design/batch had a flaw it'll show up I guess. Even though I'm a Canon user, I've always had the impression Nikon are the more physically sturdy cameras. No idea why I've formed that opinion, it's just my impression.

A very interesting thread and observation, thanks for sharing.
 
Could be a weakness that's susceptible to high G shocks... not something any camera is really designed for.

This is a bit like deciding on a car's reliability based on data from car hire firms: Yes, the ones that can cope with that level of abuse are probably stronger, but it doesn't mean YOUR car will suffer the same fate if you chose a weaker one.
 
Always surprised me how few students who were studying photography at A level had their own reasonable kit. Maybe the course is seen as a doss so gets picked by wastrels (as well as those who may be more serious about pursuing it as a career)? The lack of care they seem to give the borrowed kit is also a worry - maybe they should have to leave a replacement cost deposit on any borrowed kit...
 
We're talking degree level here... and despite having gear, they'll still chose to abuse ours. If you have a D90, would you not want to use a D3 instead?
 
Not if I was responsible for taking care of it and replacing it if I broke it!
 
Nod said:
Not if I was responsible for taking care of it and replacing it if I broke it!
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Which they are.. assuming it can be proved it broke due to mistreating it. A mirror falling off, while we may suspect it was because of misuse, is hard to prove if there's no other evidence. All the cameras collect scuffs and scrapes... so it's hard to ascertain if any of those marks are the aftermath of the actual shock that caused the damage.

To document every mark like you do when you hire a car is impractical.

What we do is charge a yearly fee for all students, which goes into a repair slush fund. Usually we break even.
 
Are all cameras used the same amount ?

Do students prefer to use canon over Nikon thus much more wear, are newer sutdents picking canon but those with more experance chosing nikon, are sutter count comparable on both makes, surveys like this need to be very detailed.
 
Already covered that one: Usage is pretty even between both marques.


[edit] as for usage: We tend to equip the department with new cameras when they become available to market, so the older cameras such as the 400Ds and the D2/300s are the oldest. The 7Ds and D7000s are roughly the same age (3 months apart according to invoices), and considering the Canon/Nikon usage seems even, probably roughly equally used in terms of shutter count.

Lower end cameras are usually given to first year students who also tend to give the most abuse, so 400D, 60D and D5200s are given to BTEC and year 1 BA students. These are coping admirably it seems. It's the mid range stuff that seems to suffer most.

The higher end stuff is usually used by year 3 students, who usually have learned to respect the tools that will earn them a living.. plus they're pro spec, so they tend to have an easier ride... which is interesting because of the 5D issues (shutter problems).


I'm not sure what to read into this to be honest. Instinctively, I'm feeling that Nikons are more robust in the main... but D7000s seem to have a weak lens mount as their Achilles heal.
 
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People who choose Canon cameras are generally more careless people?

People who are using a Canon camera are only doing so because all the Nikons have gone and they are in a strop and don't treat it well?

Pretty conclusive :)
 
Allowing a lens to smack into something hard enough to break either the mount or the lens is pretty damn careless IMO! In 30 years of SLR use, I've yet to break a lens or body. Not sure about the mirror falling off though - IIRC Canon have done a LOT of repairs of that issue under warranty.

As for documentation of scrapes etc, can the students not use a camera to do said documentation? ;) (Could be part of any assignment!)
 
I do find it hillarious that people smashed the 60D for its plastic construction yet your batch appear to be coping well, but then again, Canon class it as a mid range semi rather than a Entry level so it should be made well.

The 7D problem could be said to be slightly concerning although like you say, it could be a batch problem.
 
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I've never had a problem with plastic cameras. I think people place far too much importance on "pro" build quality. Most people cosset and baby their equipment, yet extol the virtues of "professional" build quality. If the D800 was plastic, I'd have still bought it, and not given it a second thought. I don't plan on dropping it, and I'm not a press photographer, so what does it matter? My D600 is part plastic, and it will last as long as my D800.

The fact that the 60Ds are put through hell by irreverent 1st year students and just keep on going says it all really... you're right.

Nod said:
Allowing a lens to smack into something hard enough to break either the mount or the lens is pretty damn careless IMO!
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They are students... students who these days have the attitude "I'm paying my £6500 a year so I'll do what I damned well please, because I'm a CUSTOMER"... what else do you expect? They have the same attitude to learning too.. it's something you have to provide for them... nothing that they have to WORK towards :) That's what happens when you vote for a Tory government that sees the running of education as a business.... I'll not get into that though.. that's another thread... so moving along....

Plastic doesn't mean cheap, or inferior.
 
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Pookeyhead said:
I've never had a problem with plastic cameras. I think people place far too much importance on "pro" build quality. Most people cosset and baby their equipment, yet extol the virtues of "professional" build quality. If the D800 was plastic, I'd have still bought it, and not given it a second thought. I don't plan on dropping it, and I'm not a press photographer, so what does it matter? My D600 is part plastic, and it will last as long as my D800.

The fact that the 60Ds are put through hell by irreverent 1st year students and just keep on going says it all really... you're right.

Plastic doesn't mean cheap, or inferior.
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Good to hear someone with a opinion similar to mine!

The 60D to me, feels solid, extrememly solid and I although I take every care to not bash mine sometimes it happens when slinging the cameras behing my back and thankfully only once have I smashed it hard which it smashed the flash on the top onto a solid metal railing at fast walking pace and I nearly cried. haha

But a quick wipe and good scrub clean at home and it all works fine and looks fine again.

Plastic means nothing in my eyes like you say, plastic, metal, I don't care so long as the camera does what it has to do to get me paid.
 
it is interesting though that the Nikons do "appear" to be better built.
 
All this shows is that if you treat your camera like a student, it had better not be a 7D.

What would be more useful is repair rates from cameras used by pros (rather than students). A pro is more likely to look after their camera and use it takee photos rather than using it as a hammer to bash a nail in.
 
Can you imagine someone actually hammering a nail in with a camera, now that would be an interesting sight
 
omens said:
What would be more useful is repair rates from cameras used by pros (rather than students).
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I agree. However, I can only quote statistics for myself in that regard, and apart from owning a EOS350D and kit lens as a travel camera, have little experience with Canon.

The 350D was brilliant!! The Canon kit lens did develop a err99 message though. I got angry, and threw it in a river.

I'm sure that no camera is designed to be abused.. not sustained abuse, day in, day out, from September to July anyway. I wouldn't take this thread to seriously. There are thousands of perfectly happy professionals out there using Canon gear who would wonder what the hell this is all about, as they've probably had no issues with their gear.

Nikons do seem to be more robust on a like for like basis, but to say Canons are inferior is a bit like saying that your house is inferior because it couldn't withstand a direct hit from a crashing airliner. If an airliner crashes into your house... you've greater concerns I would imagine, just as if you handed your brand new D4 to a student... you'd probably have cause for concern - not because the camera is not well built, but because you know it's going to get abused in a way it wasn't designed to be abused in.

I've seen students fitting lenses, and not even bother lining up the dots. They just mash the lens on, and rotate it using brute force until something seems to line up; They'll put a body with no body cap in their bag (not camera bag) with a load of lose change, pens, and other detritus; I've caught them cleaning sensors with the end of their t shirts while just using "B".. you name it.. I see it. I've seen tripods with D3s on them kicked over, 24-70 f2.8 rolling down stairs like Slinkys... it's sickening.

Not ALL students are this bad... but there's a fair percentage every year who just don't give a stuff because it's not theirs.

Seriously... don't take this thread as a measure of how reliable your cameras are.. It's just an interesting read.. maybe :)
 
I think...... I would have to slap them. haha

And throwing a camera in a river from anger..... fantastic! :D
 
dalegt4 said:
I think...... I would have to slap them. haha

And throwing a camera in a river from anger..... fantastic! :D
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Just the crap kit lens went swimming.. LOL.

I thought the 350D was epic! Cheap, reliable, and very, very light. It was a great travel camera. I even used it on a professional jobs for Fast Ford (is that mag still going?) due to leaving battery packs for my D2Xs at home.

[edit] I replaced the EF-S Kit lens for a decent mid range zoom and used that 350D for around 6 years until I lost it :( As I said earlier.. I have no aversion to plastic cameras.
 
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Like I said... the whole consignment was bought in one go... with sequential, or very close serial numbers. There's every possibility it was a batch flaw. Still... what happened, happened... (shrug).

There's also a video where two guys trash a 5D MkIII by hitting it with a hammer and throwing down some stairs. Nothing is indistructable. In fairness, the only high G shocks that 7D in the video receives is being knocked off a tripod... once, and dropped down the stairs while in a padded camera bag.. once. Ours sustain worse than that, and they do it on a regular basis. As for freezing/burning... well.. that's not something useful I'd need to see camera's protected against :) On average I'd say most cameras in our stores get dropped at least once a week.
 
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Haha, superb none the less! :D

I can't think of anything i've ever thrown in anger, I have serious tight wallet syndrome in which even if I hate something at that moment my brain says.." This will cost you" and I just shout inside my head. haha

Yeah I have a 1100D for the Mrs and I think its great, its light, feels crazy light and the image detail captured is also good.

Not used it on any proper jobs so to speak as I have always used the 60D for the newspaper or Magazine and my own personal work but I would easily have confidence to complete a job with it. :)
 
dalegt4 said:
I can't think of anything i've ever thrown in anger,
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I have a terrible temper when devices don't do what they're designed to do. I once had a printer that was always jamming. I eventually just lost my rag, calmly carried it into the back garden, and hit it with a spade until it was unrecognisable. Childish.. but my God did I feel better afterwards. It also made me get off my arse and get a printer that didn't Jam instead of faffing around with a crap one just to save money.

Peace of mind and reliable equipment... two things you can't put a price on. :)
 
haha! even better!

I bet your neighbours thought you were totally nuts!! :D
 
Pookeyhead said:
I once had a printer that was always jamming. I eventually just lost my rag, calmly carried it into the back garden, and hit it with a spade until it was unrecognisable.
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Did you watch Fawlty Towers one too many times when you were younger?
 
ernesto said:
Did you watch Fawlty Towers one too many times when you were younger?
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I did this with an axe and a VHS recorder.

If anyone hasn't tried it they should. It feels... Good! :D
 
Pookeyhead said:
It also made me get off my arse and get a printer that didn't Jam instead of faffing around with a crap one just to save money
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Slightly OT... printers have fallen in price so much that they're almost disposable technology. When you can buy a new one for the price of a couple of ink cartridges, you might as well buy them in packs of two for when one dies :lol:

It's probably a case of the printer itself being a loss-leader for the cartridges, which are hideously expensive for what they are and where the printer manufacturer makes most of their profits :(

A.
 
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That's something that winds me up - cheaper to buy a new printer than new cartridges.
 
Pookeyhead said:
...
[*]Nikon D7000s have weak lens mounts
[*]EOS 7Ds have a flaw in reflex mirror design (or at least that batch did)
[/LIST]
...
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Mmm. This will make me look at the way I carry the camera with a long lens on it. I have come to and understanding with my D7000 with its autofocus issues, but I should remember that it is not a pro grade body.
 
omens said:
That's something that winds me up - cheaper to buy a new printer than new cartridges.
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I've always bought Epson ink cartridges for my R2880 but I recently bought some compatible cartridges from ebay. They were all between £1-2+change and they actually have more ink in them than the Epson ones. The Epson ones are £8-10+ from Amazon. Print quality seems to be just the same so I can't see myself buying the Epson ones again.
 
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