Recommend me a non-DSLR

The23rdman

The23rdman

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Dean
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Guys n girls, after an initial period of enthusiasm my return to photography has floundered. I can't recall the last time I took my camera out of the bag and I think I'd do so more if it was easier to carry.

I got rid of my X-10 because I missed DSLR IQ and focus speed, but even having a smaller bodied D90 hasn't encouraged me to take it out with me.

To this end I'm looking at the possibilities in M4/3 and the like. IQ, focus speed and a hotshoe are the requirements and I'll be looking at a budget of around £400 (not, "oh, if you just stretch to £5-600...").

Thrill me with your knowledge because this is an area I know little in.
 
Focus speed is a combination of body and lens in u4/3. You're going to be stretching it at £400 to get lightning autofocus as it's the newer (and hence more expensive!) bodies that have great focus speed (at least in Panasonic it's the GH3/GH4/GX7 and 12-35 and 35-100 f2.8 lenses that are lightening fast).

As to IQ - that depends. Do you mean ability to take pictures at ISO 26400 and not fall to pieces? Sensor/pixel size are king there and any smaller sensor camera just won't stand up to a FF Canon/Nikon under the ultimate scrutiny. Having said that, take a look at G5/G6 with 14-42 kit lens in Panasonic. They are mini DSLR style cameras with viewfinder and hotshoe. Not sure what the equivalent is in Olympus, but make sure you are happy with shooting without a viewfinder before looking at the smaller rangefinder style bodies.
 
Just stumbled across this and was really surprised as I saw some of your previous work & it was really good!

I went to the X10 after a period of doubt & like you missed the IQ from DSLRs.

What is it you are shooting? It sounds almost like you're beating yourself up for not shooting & this should not be the case. We're all gear junkies at the end of the day, why not take some time out, go to galleries, write an inspiration diary for a few months. Consciously not shoot rather than worry about it?

Time out & reflection could be just the thing you need (but it might not) stressing about gear (as I do too) takes away from the fun & that's what photography should be...
 
Thanks for the replies, guys. A little more context then...

I shot professionally for a couple of years working in the family and kids market, but when I moved to a new town I CBA to start it all up again and lost my enthusiasm. As my son grew though I found myself increasingly frustrated with the IQ of X-10 at anything over ISO 400 and the low light focus speed. I guess it was partly GAS and partly a desire to do more creative stuff. Well, buying a D90 (accepting that it was a step up from the x-10, but down from my old D700's) and 18-105 allowed me to play around with lights a bit more again (I know the x-10 allowed this too), but after the initial fun shooting Noah and my guitars I've just had no desire to shoot. I hope that buying a smaller system will allow my wife to enjoy the camera (she has physical problems with big cameras) and give me the chance to play with it when the mood takes me.

I'm not expecting D4 IQ and don't tend to shoot uber high ISO anyway preferring to use lights off camera to maintain IQ. I accept that AF speed and accuracy may take a dive...

Maybe the answer is a smaller bodied DSLR and prime combo?

I'm not really worried about not shooting as much as not wanting to have an excuse. I guess I need to test the water to see if I still have any enthusiasm for this hobby.
 
Have you considered the sigma dp merrills?..They are quirky and best used at lower iso but the images they produce rival some dslrs with good glass on.
 
StuartH said:
Have you considered the sigma dp merrills?..They are quirky and best used at lower iso but the images they produce rival some dslrs with good glass on.
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Interesting thing, but I think the speed of the file writing would drive me insane.
 
Maybe..you can carry on shooting whilst its writing so if you dont chimp all the time after every shot its ok.
 
Lumix G3s go for very cheap now, you can get a refurb with the perfectly satisfactory 14-42 lens for £199. The 16MP sensor is a big step up in IQ from the 12MP one in the earlier models, particularly above ISO800. I find the IQ excellent, even at 1600 and RAWs at 3200 look fine, but a bit of banding creeps in at 6400 that's much harder to get rid of. Add support for legacy lenses and the ability to shoot very good video at 720p or 1080i and it's a bargain. G5 adds 1080p, more buttons and a bigger grip and G6 gives a lot more facilities (timelapse, intervalometer) and much more video functionality - each is a step up in money.

I'm very happy indeed with my G3 - std lens plus 20mm f1.7 and 45-150 tele zoom.
 
The23rdman said:
Interesting thing, but I think the speed of the file writing would drive me insane.
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its not as bad as made out to be, I can quite happily keep snapping on the street just as long as I don't want 8fps continuous.

Sigma is all about the IQ, everything else is secondary so if you are only after low/mid end DSLR IQ then look elsewhere, personally though I love how the DPs operate, if you are nearby Leicester I am always happy to meet and let you have a gander.
 
The Sony RX100 II might be worth a look - 1" sensor so better IQ than the X10 but still small overall. The only reason I don't have one is the lack of a built-in viewfinder which I can't do without.
 
paulevans said:
Lumix G3s go for very cheap now, you can get a refurb with the perfectly satisfactory 14-42 lens for £199. The 16MP sensor is a big step up in IQ from the 12MP one in the earlier models, particularly above ISO800. I find the IQ excellent, even at 1600 and RAWs at 3200 look fine, but a bit of banding creeps in at 6400 that's much harder to get rid of. Add support for legacy lenses and the ability to shoot very good video at 720p or 1080i and it's a bargain. G5 adds 1080p, more buttons and a bigger grip and G6 gives a lot more facilities (timelapse, intervalometer) and much more video functionality - each is a step up in money.

I'm very happy indeed with my G3 - std lens plus 20mm f1.7 and 45-150 tele zoom.
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Thanks, I'll check them out.
 
strumstrum said:
its not as bad as made out to be, I can quite happily keep snapping on the street just as long as I don't want 8fps continuous.

Sigma is all about the IQ, everything else is secondary so if you are only after low/mid end DSLR IQ then look elsewhere, personally though I love how the DPs operate, if you are nearby Leicester I am always happy to meet and let you have a gander.
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Thanks mate, might take you up on that.
 
Snapsh0t said:
The Sony RX100 II might be worth a look - 1" sensor so better IQ than the X10 but still small overall. The only reason I don't have one is the lack of a built-in viewfinder which I can't do without.
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Will manual flashes work on that though? I have both Canon and Nikon RF-602's - I assumed Sony would be a different system.
 
I have a GX1 for this sort of thing
decent quality, hotshoe, plus builtin flash, pancake lens option 20mm 1.7 is handy for small
compact zoom available as well as something tastier like a f2.8.
shoots raw, fairly solid and heavy but I didn't expect it to be as light as a compact.
 
Also have a look at the Fuji range again,you should be able to pick up an X-pro1/XE-1 with say an 18-55mm.

I have been trying an few out since giving up DSLR,and i found myself keep coming back to the Fuji range :)
 
I've been very impressed with the PenE-pl5 with 45mm 1.8. around £518 ,also includes 14-42mm kit lens.
 
new a6000 sony nex but stupidly renamed camera not quiet out yet might be one to look for.

or join the sigmafia :)
 
I've always fancied the Nex myself, and they're a really reasonable price now too. You can get the 3n and 16-50mm for around £250 brand new. Dinky little body but with APS-C sensor. Currys are doing the 5T with 16-50 for just £410 too (you'll have to forgive the £10 over :p ) Or the Alpha 5000 with lens for around £400 too. They don't have hotshoes though.

The Canon EOS M is another one, and can be had for around £300 new. This one does have the hotshoe, which is important for you :)

I don't own any of those by the way, but i've always been drawn to them as they seem a really good "compromise" :) (compromise is the wrong word, a good mix of sensor and size would be better)
 
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Be very sure you can do without the viewfinder if you go for the PEN system... (yes, I know you can add one, but it blows the budget)
 
Wilkinson and T4 have the Panasonic G5 + 14-42 lens for £250 or with the 45-150 lens thrown in as well, for £400:

http://www.t4cameras.co.uk/productdetails/panasonic-lumix-g5-with-1442mm-lens/1914/

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Panasonic-G5-14-42mm-45-150mm-Lenses-UK-DEALER-UK-STOCK-/261408819354
The G5 + 14-42 would leave you with £150 to buy a used Olympus 45mm f1.8 or a new Sigma 19mm/30mm/60mm f2.8 (£125) for low light stuff.


http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Panasonic_Lumix_DMC_G5/verdict.shtml


http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Panasonic_Lumix_DMC_G6/verdict.shtml

There is a used G6 at MPB for £269. The G6 has better low light AF than the G5 according to the first customer review here.

Or the Nex 6 (standard hot shoe) which is good value now at £350 body only - (half the £700 price it was launched at) if you can live with the more limited selection of decent lenses compared to m43. A Nex 6 and a Sigma 30mm f2.8 (around £70 used) would make a very nice combination if you don't mind the fixed focal length. The low light AF focus speed is not great though on my Nex 5 - and judging from the review below the Nex 6 is no better?

http://www.cameracentreuk.com/sony/sony-alpha-nex-6-black-digital-camera-body-1915-166-2104.php

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_NEX_6/verdict.shtml
 
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i think theres a reasonable e mount lens coverage, and u can stick a redicous amount of manual lenses on it too :D
 
The23rdman said:
Interesting thing, but I think the speed of the file writing would drive me insane.
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I don't think they're for everybody. Certainly not if you want video and flexibility.

But they are very remarkable.
 
I would like video. Looking further into the Sigma I can see that the limitations would drive me insane despite the incredible IQ.
 
arad85 said:
Be very sure you can do without the viewfinder if you go for the PEN system... (yes, I know you can add one, but it blows the budget)
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I can. :)
 
After some further research I think that I'm going to get a smaller DSLR. I can't see anything else in my price range competing when it comes to AF speed and accuracy and I'm mostly shooting a 3 year old who never sits still. I'm prepared to be wrong if you can convince me otherwise...
 
The23rdman said:
Will manual flashes work on that though? I have both Canon and Nikon RF-602's - I assumed Sony would be a different system.
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Yes, they should as the current Sonys have a standard flash shoe with the 'intelligence' on some extra contacts at the front.
 
Fuji hs50? Fits the budget, has insane focus, shoots RAW, has a hotshoe & viewfinder
 
they do do video, but it looks like vhs :eek: the sigmas i mean
 
HS50 does video too inc slo mo & HD
 
Dean, if your struggling to get your mojo back try something different... FILM ....
You can pick up a Nikon F100 for less than a ton which your lenses will work with, its digital equivalent is the D700, its af is super fast and it does everything perfectly. I was in a similar boat but the move back to film has really got me interested in photography again. I still shoot digital as well but in a more measured way eg a weekend in the Lakes I shot about 120 shots of which 10 were worth printing and about 30% I was pretty happy with, a much bigger percentage than in the past.
Give it a go the F100 keeps its value so you won't lose out if you don't enjoy it, pop over to the film and conventional section, its fun.:banana:

Cheers

Andy
 
Andysnap said:
Dean, if your struggling to get your mojo back try something different... FILM ....
You can pick up a Nikon F100 for less than a ton which your lenses will work with, its digital equivalent is the D700, its af is super fast and it does everything perfectly. I was in a similar boat but the move back to film has really got me interested in photography again. I still shoot digital as well but in a more measured way eg a weekend in the Lakes I shot about 120 shots of which 10 were worth printing and about 30% I was pretty happy with, a much bigger percentage than in the past.
Give it a go the F100 keeps its value so you won't lose out if you don't enjoy it, pop over to the film and conventional section, its fun.:banana:

Cheers

Andy
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:agree::plus1:

Just bought an AE1 , an A1 and a Pentax ME super, plus I have an Olympus 35 RC that i rescued from the loft. I can tell you that as far as I'm concearned Digital was a backwards leap for enjoying photography. Seems to me its just punishing your cranium trying to work out every single aspect of a cameras guts and settings potential, verses simply composing and taking your shot. Screw Digital, I won't go back apart from product photography.
The canon A1 is sheer porn, its the most gorgeous camera I've ever seen and it loves me back with simplicity and great street cred at a price that isn't silly.

As for the Adobe digital religion, I'm afraid I am a complete atheist, far too complex and contrived to hook geeks into becoming experts on vaguely pointless technology that corrects a lack of real skill.

We took fantastic shots with our 35 RC back in the day and I am going to do so again.

Just sold a poxy, nigh on mint 50d with a genuine battery grip and stuff that i paid over £375.00 for in the last six months for £ 208.00 on ebay today. Must be bloody mad to subscribe to the incremental tweaking of the modern DSLR model upgrades. I'm done with them now. I will get an iphone camerarse, use a 1000d for product shots but concentrate on film for anything i love or care about.

Just feels more creative and real to me.
 
The23rdman said:
Thanks, I'll check them out.
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One thing, the 20mm - whilst a great lens - is not a quick focusser.

Also an olympus em5 can go for around £400 on ebay. depends if your budget is body or body + lens.

the cheapest great lens on m43 is the 45mm, which could be a great lens for your portraits.
 
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