Reclaiming VAT

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samIOW said:
I thought it was being shut down at the end of the month, unless i misunderstood Matty, :) or just being moved here??
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The sub-forum setup specifically for Panamoz got shutdown today. Read back a bit to see Matty's posts.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
Yes he can, as stated (and ignored, seemingly) ad nauseum, he can register as a Non-Established Taxable Person (NETP) that would give him a UK VAT number....
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from the HMRC website

Definition of NETP
A non-established taxable person who is:

•not normally resident in the UK
•does not have a place of business in the UK
•is not incorporated under UK law but,
•makes taxable supplies in the UK
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as Ian doesnt make taxable supplies in the uk, and is ( I believe) usually resident in the UK- he isnt eligible. Panamoz are also based entirely in hong kong and thus don't make taxable supplies in the uk either and are similarly ineligible. So the reason its being ignored , apparently ad nauseum is because it isnt correct
 
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big soft moose said:
from the HMRC website

as Ian doesnt make taxable supplies in the uk, and is ( I believe) usually resident in the UK- he isnt eligible. Panamoz are also based entirely in hong kong and thus don't make taxable supplies in the uk either and are similarly ineligible. So the reason its being ignored , apparently ad nauseum is because it isnt correct
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Sorry, but it's you who is wrong and I'll quote from the HMRC website too...

What is a taxable supply?
The law defines taxable supply as any supply made in the UK that is not exempt from VAT whether you are registered for VAT or not.

For the purposes of VAT, all the goods you supply which are VAT rated - even zero-rated goods or services - are called taxable supplies, whether you are registered for VAT or not.
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Flash In The Pan said:
Sorry, but it's you who is wrong and I'll quote from the HMRC website too...
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sorry but no - what goods or services is ian or panamoz making in the uk ? - Kerso's services come from america and panamoz from HK - neither makes a taxable supply of any description in the UK

also as i said previously Ian lives in scotland and is therefore usually a uk resident (just one who runs a company based in the US) - so even if he did make a taxable supply in the UK (which he doesnt) he still wouldnt be eligible to be NETP
 
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matty said:
we didnt dump them because we dont think its a legit business. I cant go into detail but it was nothing to do with the service that they offer, or the products.
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In which case apologies for the misunderstanding! :)

I realise that you and Matty must feel as though you're between a rock and a hard place at times, but I think that you do a great job of keeping the balance ( ie advertising income v forum integrity) .
 
Zoomboxer said:
... And the thread starter has Suddenly gone very quiet...
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You spoke too soon, he posted immediately before you did :D

Personally I think this thread has gone on far too long. The OPs original question was answered by the Panamoz FAQ. I've suggested a number of times that he emails Panamoz for confirmation/clarification of the VAT receipt question, but he's already stated that he doesn't expect to get an answer from them.

Now it's turned into a "who can/can't be VAT registered thread" and quite frankly unless there's a well-versed lawyer here, this debate will just go on and on.....yaaaawwwwwwnnnnn.
 
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domino1999 said:
You spoke too soon, he posted immediately before you did :D

Personally I think this thread has gone on far too long. The OPs original question was answered by the Panamoz FAQ. I've suggested a number of times that he emails Panamoz for confirmation/clarification of the VAT receipt question, but he's already stated that he doesn't expect to get an answer from them.

Now it's turned into a "who can/can't be VAT registered thread" and quite frankly unless there's a well-versed lawyer here, this debate will just go on and on.....yaaaawwwwwwnnnnn.
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There are solicitors on these boards.
 
admirable said:
http://www.westone-business.co.uk/h...rwarding---9-months-plus-1-month-free-7-p.asp

:lol:
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common thing, if someone wants a uk address...one of my competitors at work uses one of those as he thinks it makes him look like a proper business man

samIOW said:
I thought it was being shut down at the end of the month, unless i misunderstood Matty, :) or just being moved here??
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no point keeping it open as...

Zoomboxer said:
... And the thread starter has Suddenly gone very quiet...
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... a good spot of ****-stirring has made its existence untenable.

DemiLion said:
In which case apologies for the misunderstanding! :)

I realise that you and Matty must feel as though you're between a rock and a hard place at times, but I think that you do a great job of keeping the balance ( ie advertising income v forum integrity) .
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thanks.. It isnt easy, when you have an advertiser come on board you have:
Members looking to nitpick
other advertisers looking to stop the competition(especially if they are a big threat)
more nitpicking
outraged nitpickers

rock and a hardplace.
 
matty said:
It isnt easy, when you have an advertiser come on board you have:
Members looking to nitpick
other advertisers looking to stop the competition(especially if they are a big threat)
more nitpicking
outraged nitpickers

rock and a hardplace.
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Indeed, you mods have my respect for that :thumbs:
 
Thanks for your reply Matty, I wasn't talking about this Thread, As I personally think this has run it course ( for me anyway) I was refering to anything Panamoz, I assume now that there is not going to be a dedicated option.but in Shopping, Suppliers, Bargains....
 
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all the threads are now in the main supplier forum. panamoz where paying for a dedicated forum, but not currently.
 
matty said:
common thing, if someone wants a uk address...one of my competitors at work uses one of those as he thinks it makes him look like a proper business man



no point keeping it open as...



... a good spot of ****-stirring has made its existence untenable.



thanks.. It isnt easy, when you have an advertiser come on board you have:
Members looking to nitpick
other advertisers looking to stop the competition(especially if they are a big threat)
more nitpicking
outraged nitpickers

rock and a hardplace.
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Hopefully I have not upset anyone or done the wrong thing. If I have I apologise. Still a newbie here who is finding his feet.
 
matty said:
did you ask for a UK address for warranty purposes or did it just come to you with the UK address?
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I did not ask for it, the pro-forma invoice came to me as it was and I assume as it did for everyone else. I had no knowledge of the VAT status of Panamoz and at the time (hindsight is a great thing) had no reason to question the invoice.
There are those who suggest that everyone dealing with them "must have known there was something wrong", but is that necessarily so?
 
there is nothing 'wrong'
they are a company based in HK, they dont have to have a VAT number.. they should declare the value of goods they send correctly to customs, and shouldnt be sending a UK based address for invoicing, that IS a bit naughty
 
tiler65 said:
Quite correct but if they were to say VAT included, in the goods sold, like Panamoz have.......
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Aaaargh!
please show where they say those words?
They don't, simples.
You may infer from their wording but the fact is they do not say inc vat nor should they as they clearly dont.
 
matty said:
threads will be moved yes, probably in photoshopping. panamoz were made aware already. We were told that they had a UK warehouse that they dispatched from(which isnt the case I dont think) but they do appear to use a UK address to bill from.
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Indeed that appears to be the crux of it, hdew do hold the stock before forwarding within the UK, panamoz don't.
 
tiler65 said:
3. Will I have to pay Import taxes?

No, all import taxes/duties/VAT are covered by us. We are responsible for all additional tax charges. The price you see when you place an order with us, is all you have to pay. The price displayed for items sold by Panamoz Electronics are inclusive. You will be able to see your final price before you confirm your order, when you have completed your order information (including your delivery address).

This assumes that they are collecting VAT.
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No it doesn't, you assumed that, they carefully avoid that claim.
If they actually said it they would be breaking the law just on that point alone regardless of the rest as you cannot claim "inc vat" if you are not vat reg.
I think matty and the mods have done exactly the right thing and as he has said it opens the question of other hk operations advertising here......
 
FourRingCircus said:
Just to add to this, I have my Panamoz invoice here in front of me and it's the same as gramps'. I didn't ask for this - it just appeard this way.

The invoice complies with all relevant statutory requirements for a UK business invoice in that it has the following information:

Invoice is stated at the top of the page.
Invoice Number
Date
Company Name (Panamoz Electronics)
Address Unit 36, 88-90 Hatton Garden, London, EC1N 8PG, United Kingdom
Invoice ValueThere is no VAT shown or inferred. This doesn't make it suspicious - it is perfectly correct for a company that isn't VAT registered.
Bank Payment Info HSBC Salford UK.

There are only two things which might seem unusual about this. The first is that there is no VAT shown and any reasonable person who has an inkling of the business turnover here would be suspicious of this. Also, the bank account name is shown as an individuals name (of Far Eastern origin).

These two issues aside, anyone with no idea about VAT would not have any reason to believe they were doing anything wrong in buying a product and expecting it to come from within the UK. As has been said before, unless you study the small print on the consignment itself (before ripping it open and discarding the packaging) you would not necessarily know that it came in under the radar as sample toy parts with negligible value associated to it.:|
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Although if the company is not a ltd (or plc etc) one then no requirement for invoice numbering ;)
Just in case outscored the sole traders thereabouts lol.
 
big soft moose said:
My understanding is that kerso/flash camera is an american registered company and therefore not able to register for VAT in the uk.

He's previously said that he'd love to be able to be VAT registered as it would get him loads more business, but he can't.

As far as the panamoz question goes we seem to be confusing paying VAT with being VAT registered. They arent charging you VAT (being an HK - ie Chinese- registered company they cant be UK registered in the same way as kerso can't), they are saying that if theres a vat liability on the import they will pay it not the customer.

Ergo if you are VAT registered grey imports may not be as good a deal as you can't reclaim VAT so an ex Vat purchase from a uk retailer may be nearly as cheap. However for those of us who arent VAT registered they still offer a good deal.

The dodgy thing that panamoz do (but Kerso doesnt to the best of my knowledge) is to misdescribe the packages being sent as 'toy parts' or similar in order to avoid charges on import.
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Hey don't shoot the messenger lol, I was replying to flash who said "also illegal" in regard to kerso, at least I think he did, life too short to go looking again, anyway my post was his chance to refute that meaning, he didn't so as he likes to say, make of that what you will ;) (no offence meant flash).
 
big soft moose said:
sorry but no - what goods or services is ian or panamoz making in the uk ? - Kerso's services come from america and panamoz from HK - neither makes a taxable supply of any description in the UK

also as i said previously Ian lives in scotland and is therefore usually a uk resident (just one who runs a company based in the US) - so even if he did make a taxable supply in the UK (which he doesnt) he still wouldnt be eligible to be NETP
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Ahh, I can see now where you are getting confused .....

What is a taxable supply?
The law defines taxable supply as any supply made in the UK that is not exempt from VAT whether you are registered for VAT or not.

For the purposes of VAT, all the goods you supply which are VAT rated - even zero-rated goods or services - are called taxable supplies, whether you are registered for VAT or not.
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you appear to be interpreting the phrase "any supply made in the UK" as meaning goods manufactured in the UK, that's not what it means at all. It is the "supply" that is made in the UK, not the actual goods. In other words the seller is supply goods in the UK, which applies to both parties named above.

Think about it, if the criteria for VAT was that the seller had to manufacture the goods in the UK then Canon, Nikon, Sony, Mercedes, Porsche, Apple etc, etc would have no VAT liability here, as none of these companies manufactures goods in the UK either.

As for Ian living in Scotland, afaik he lives in Maryland, which, unless you're using Apple's maps, is most definitely in the US ;)
 
B1ts said:
No it doesn't, you assumed that, they carefully avoid that claim.
If they actually said it they would be breaking the law just on that point alone regardless of the rest as you cannot claim "inc vat" if you are not vat reg.
I think matty and the mods have done exactly the right thing and as he has said it opens the question of other hk operations advertising here......
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It clearly states in their T&C's

No, all import taxes/duties/VAT are covered by us. We are responsible for all additional tax charges. The price you see when you place an order with us, is all you have to pay. The price displayed for items sold by Panamoz Electronics are inclusive.

The words inclusive and VAT in the same condition point.

So all they have to do is change their wording then and everything is hunky dory.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
Think about it, if the criteria for VAT was that the seller had to manufacture the goods in the UK then Canon, Nikon, Sony, Mercedes, Porsche, Apple etc, etc would have no VAT liability here, as none of these companies manufactures goods in the UK either.
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but all those companies have uk subsidaries which manage their trade in the uk, are uk based companies, and thus are registered for VAT.

there is no compulsion on a company based outside the UK to register for VAT just because people in the UK buy its goods
 
7 pages and going strong.
 
big soft moose said:
but all those companies have uk subsidaries which manage their trade in the uk, are uk based companies, and thus are registered for VAT.
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So do Panamoz and so does Ian. Both have UK addresses that appear on their sales invoices, therefore they are trading in the UK. Please explain how that is any different....
 
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do they ?

as far as I know panamoz are entirely based in HK , and Ian only has a handling facility here - you seem to be confused between a foreign company having an office/warehouse in the uk, and it having a uk subsidary company
 
big soft moose said:
do they ?

as far as I know panamoz are entirely based in HK , and Ian only has a handling facility here - you seem to be confused between a foreign company having an office/warehouse in the uk, and it having a uk subsidary company
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:bang: Honestly, are you deliberately trying to be obtuse or do you genuinely not get this? You can't have a "handling facility" or an office here without staff, if you have staff you have a business, if you have a business then there is a tax liability.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
:bang: Honestly, are you deliberately trying to be obtuse or do you genuinely not get this? You can't have a "handling facility" or an office here without staff, if you have staff you have a business, if you have a business then there is a tax liability.
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They are pixies......
 
tiler65 said:
They are pixies......
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I'd imagine even pixies would need to be paid and if you're employing someone to run an office or "handling facility" then I would tend to think that's a commercial operation...
 
tiler65 said:
It clearly states in their T&C's

No, all import taxes/duties/VAT are covered by us. We are responsible for all additional tax charges. The price you see when you place an order with us, is all you have to pay. The price displayed for items sold by Panamoz Electronics are inclusive.

The words inclusive and VAT in the same condition point.

So all they have to do is change their wording then and everything is hunky dory.
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Rather interestingly (or not) Panamoz have changed the wording on their FAQ page.

Up until yesterday it said: "All import taxes/duties/VAT are paid by us."

Subtle, but quite significant, difference.
 
big soft moose said:
do they ?

as far as I know panamoz are entirely based in HK , and Ian only has a handling facility here - you seem to be confused between a foreign company having an office/warehouse in the uk, and it having a uk subsidary company
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Perhaps if you read the entire thread, you might notice the odd post or two that have pointed to Panamoz having a UK based trading operation.

Not only are they evading VAT (which as a UK based seller they are beholden to collect), I'm fairly willing to bet that they aren't filing any tax returns for trading here.
 
DemiLion said:
Perhaps if you read the entire thread, you might notice the odd post or two that have pointed to Panamoz having a UK based trading operation.

Not only are they evading VAT (which as a UK based seller they are beholden to collect), I'm fairly willing to bet that they aren't filing any tax returns for trading here.
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There is actually a UK company called Panamoz Ltd of 6 WILDFELL CATFORD LONDON SE6 4HU, Company Registration No.: 07101986
but it's shown as being disolved.

No idea if it is related though.
 
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