Rear curtain sync with wireless

Mangelwurzel

Mangelwurzel

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I've been enjoying my cheapo ebay trigger set for months without problems until tonight i wanted to use rear curtain sync and quickly realised - no way is it possible :bonk:
I've had a look at the pocketwizards and the lower range models don't seem to support RCS either. The only ones that seem to are the top of the line MultiMax (although i read on flickr that the Plus II's support RCS on Nikon but not Canon - can anyone confirm this?).

Without spending £600 on MuliMax PW's, anyone know of an alternative to achieve off camera RCS?
 
Can't you control Canon flashes wirelessly (that's if you are using two or more)? I'm sure it's very much like Nikon's Creative Lighting System where a 550EX (for example) can control other Canon flashes, therefore giving you full control and RCS.
 
specialman said:
Can't you control Canon flashes wirelessly (that's if you are using two or more)? I'm sure it's very much like Nikon's Creative Lighting System where a 550EX (for example) can control other Canon flashes, therefore giving you full control and RCS.
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Sorry i should have mentioned not all of my flashguns are Canon. That was the attraction of the cheap radio triggers.
I've looked at the Canon transmitter but the cost of this and another Canon speedlite is getting close to what the PW's cost.
 
I think you're stumped then. I suppose that's the limitation of cheapo triggers.

One way around it is with Nikon's SB26; it has an optical slave and manual settings and also has a delay setting, firing it a small amount of time after the master flash. The SB26 will fire off any master flash through the optical slave and it's quite cheap - I bought one for £35 that works brilliantly with my SB800 and SB28.
 
my pw II's suport rear curtain, thats all i shoot in but its with nikon. Dont know about Cannon but i'm sure it should.
Mart
 
I had never even thought about this tbh, is there no work around for the cheap cactus type triggers? I have used rear curtain using my sb-600 with cls, but had grand plans for larger scaled setups using the cactus triggers, guess that's out the window now then? I have an Sb-25, Sb-26, SB-80dx, Sb-600

I'm a tad annoyed with myself for not even thinking about this before:bang:
 
id have thought this would be down to the camera more than the triggers:shrug:

since the camera will be telling the flash when to fire, so as long as the camera tells it with enough time for the trigger to actually activate the flash before the shutter closes but i haveno idea:shrug:
 
Might have to play with it when I get home, guessing they trigger at the start of the frame and then at the end again? I would have thought that the camera would only fire the triggers at the end of the exposure?
 
I can only get them to fire on the first curtain. Since there's no TTL support there are no in-camera settings to change as far as i can see.
 
you should be able to change the camera to rear curtain. If you put the flash on the camera hot shoe how do you set it for rear curtain? I'm not familiar with Cannons.
Mart.
 
fletch5 said:
id have thought this would be down to the camera more than the triggers:shrug:

since the camera will be telling the flash when to fire, so as long as the camera tells it with enough time for the trigger to actually activate the flash before the shutter closes but i haveno idea:shrug:
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On my Canon 400D you set the rear-curtain sync in the camera in the custom settings - it tells the flash to fire at the end of the exposure so I can't see how that would change when telling a trigger to fire rather than a camera-mounted flash?

The trigger doesn't need to send ttl info, just the command to fire the flash.

I suppose if you've got a flash/camera combo where you set the sync on the flash you might have trouble when using off-camera flash since it would send the trigger signal at the start of exposure but no exposure time information so it wouldn't know when to fire.
 
Mangelwurzel said:
I can only get them to fire on the first curtain. Since there's no TTL support there are no in-camera settings to change as far as i can see.
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Just seen what camera you're trying to use - if it's like my 400d then check your custom functions which are hidden away inside another settings screen. It's something like Fn7 on mine but will display the setting as you scroll through, just change it from a 0 to a 1.
 
The problem is most likely the delay in sending/recieving the signals in the cheap triggers. They just don't process them as quick as the expensive ones. Cactus have always AFAIK had a sync speed limitation meaning they wouldn't work anywhere near 1/500 on D70 cameras because of the signal delay.

They'll probably fire the flash on 2nd/rear curtain sync but the delay will be such that the 2nd curtain has already moved across the sensor.
 
incapete said:
On my Canon 400D you set the rear-curtain sync in the camera in the custom settings - it tells the flash to fire at the end of the exposure so I can't see how that would change when telling a trigger to fire rather than a camera-mounted flash?

The trigger doesn't need to send ttl info, just the command to fire the flash.

I suppose if you've got a flash/camera combo where you set the sync on the flash you might have trouble when using off-camera flash since it would send the trigger signal at the start of exposure but no exposure time information so it wouldn't know when to fire.
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The problem the OP has is that his wireless triggers do not support any kind of TTL command from the camera - they fire purely via an optical slave triggered by the flash of the flashgun. :)
 
Marvin d martian said:
you should be able to change the camera to rear curtain. If you put the flash on the camera hot shoe how do you set it for rear curtain? I'm not familiar with Cannons.
Mart.
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You can only set rear curtain on the camera if the flash is in the hotshoe. If the transmitter is in the hotshoe you can't even access the menu.
If you select rear curtain on the flash it makes no difference, the trigger fires it at the start of the exposure because there is no TTL info being sent to the flash.
 
specialman said:
The problem the OP has is that his wireless triggers do not support any kind of TTL command from the camera - they fire purely via an optical slave triggered by the flash of the flashgun. :)
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Are you sure about the optical slave bit? He didn't mention that. I assumed he was talking about something similar to the Cactus triggers which sit on the hotshoe and send to a receiver on the flash - no TTL is sent and it doesn't need to be since it's the camera is controlling the firing of them not their power. The flashes are on manual since they're off camera.

Kev's got an interesting point about sync speed though.

Mangelwurzel said:
You can only set rear curtain on the camera if the flash is in the hotshoe. If the transmitter is in the hotshoe you can't even access the menu.
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That's odd - on mine you can access the custom menu all the time and I leave it on rear curtain permanantly. Must have changed things in the version changes.
 
I had the same problem.

There are several options:

Use a 580 (or earlier) set to master (but not to fire) to fire 430's (or earlier)
Use a 580 or 430 on a ttl cord, and have the other flashes fire with cheap optical slaves or via canon wireless if you have all canon flashes.

The ebay triggers dont fire the flash on second curtain - even if you set the camera to 2nd curtain the flash still fires on 1st curtain.

If that makes sense :shrug: It took me ages to get this to work :bonk:
 
Ste Manns said:
I had the same problem.

There are several options:

Use a 580 (or earlier) set to master (but not to fire) to fire 430's (or earlier)
Use a 580 or 430 on a ttl cord, and have the other flashes fire with cheap optical slaves or via canon wireless if you have all canon flashes.

The ebay triggers dont fire the flash on second curtain - even if you set the camera to 2nd curtain the flash still fires on 1st curtain.

If that makes sense :shrug: It took me ages to get this to work :bonk:
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Thanks that makes perfect sense. I think my best (and cheapest) option is to get the ST-E2 and a second 430EXII.
Thanks everyone for your help.
 
So is this the case with nikon equipment too? If is set the body (D80) to rear curtain with the wireless transmitter attached does it fire on first, first and second, or just second as requested? Might have to try it when I get home
 
However they're being fired (sorry, misread the bit about chapo ebay triggers) there's no information from the camera, other than the signal to fire the flash, in order to tell the flash what it should be doing. Unless it's a TTL-enabled trigger that transmits all of the info regarding the exposure (like with the Multimax triggers do), you're effectivly jusy sending a message to the flash to say 'fire' and that's what it does. Without the extra info it will never know what the user wants.
 
Ok just got home;

Got out the D80, cactus transmitter on the hotshoe.

Did a couple of longer shutter speeds which as normal just triggered the flash at the start of the exposure.

I then held in the button for the flash and changed it to rear (which makes the D80 builtin flash pop-up, I then closed the built-in flash, and rear still remains on the LCD display. Low and behold the flash fires at the end of the exposure, and certainly does fire in time to have full effect on the exposure. Tried it on some longer 10sec exposures too. Works fine. So as long as rear is selected on the body, it will fire the remotes at the end of the frame if that makes sense?

Well I'm happy now as that would have ruined some of my upcoming ideas.

Canon users I'm not sure how you will fair, but for Nikon (D80) it works fine!
 
I use second curtain sync with fleabay triggers and it works fine... But thats with both the 5D and flash menu settings on second curtain sync.
 
Are we missing something then? I'm happy it works for me and a couple of others, but I would have thought this would be fairly standard across bodies?
 
Thank you! I said it should work and everyone was saying it didn't/wouldn't.

Like I said before, the trigger just sends a command to fire the flash, nothing else is needed. So if the body sends a flash signal at the rear curtain sync then that will be sent by the trigger at the rear curtain sync.

:thumbs:
 
n30_mkii said:
Ok just got home;

Got out the D80, cactus transmitter on the hotshoe.

Did a couple of longer shutter speeds which as normal just triggered the flash at the start of the exposure.

I then held in the button for the flash and changed it to rear (which makes the D80 builtin flash pop-up, I then closed the built-in flash, and rear still remains on the LCD display. Low and behold the flash fires at the end of the exposure, and certainly does fire in time to have full effect on the exposure. Tried it on some longer 10sec exposures too. Works fine. So as long as rear is selected on the body, it will fire the remotes at the end of the frame if that makes sense?

Well I'm happy now as that would have ruined some of my upcoming ideas.

Canon users I'm not sure how you will fair, but for Nikon (D80) it works fine!
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Interesting.
It's just not possible on my Canon set-up (450D with 430EXII with CTR-301 triggers).
There is no way to set 2nd curtain sync in the menu without a flash sitting in the hotshoe and if you set it on the flash it makes no difference.
I wonder if it's worth trying the Cactus triggers :thinking:
 
I found this thread on flickr which sort of backs up my problem:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/strobist/discuss/72157600176928366/

Also this is stated in the pocketwizard FlexTT5 and MiniTT1 reviews:

"What Canon features are not available through the ControlTL system at this time? Rear Curtain Sync, FEB, stroboscopic, adjusting flash settings via the camera’s menus, individual manual control of slave groups without using Canon’s ratio system, FEC set on the flash, and other features not expressly mentioned. These features may be implemented soon so be sure to check www.PocketWizard.com for future firmware updates."
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I guess it's not just the cheapo triggers that have problems with the Canon system.
 
works with my 50d try sitting a flash on the shoe setting it up then taking it off and test, I have been using a flash on shoe and a trigger on the pc port though
 
david1701 said:
works with my 50d try sitting a flash on the shoe setting it up then taking it off and test, I have been using a flash on shoe and a trigger on the pc port though
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Tried that. Doesn't work. Seems some Canons do some don't. The 450D definately doesn't, although the 400D and 5D seem possible.
I found a thread on flickr a few days ago where a bloke from pocketwizard confirmed the only way to achieve RCS on some canon's were to use a Multimax delay plus another PW reciever on the flash.
 
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