Quick question for any sparkies about....

JonathanRyan

JonathanRyan

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I need to replace an electric hob (not cooker - just hob) in a rental property. I'll be doing a straight like for like swap.

I'm assuming it clips in and that there's a hardwired point under the counter somewhere.

1. Should it be as easy as unwiring one hob and wiring the new one? I.e. 3 wires and 5 mins with a screwdriver once I've turned the power off.

2. Can I legally do this? I know kitchens are covered by Part P but I've an idea swaps like this are allowed. Any difference for rental properties? (To be clear: I won the property and rent it out to tenants).

AO want 90 quid for installation and that seems a little spendy on a £99 hob.
 
1) Yeah it really is that easy, depending on the hob it might hardwire into the hop itself supposed to a unit elsewhere.

2) I don't think so no (buts that's just my opinion)
 
1) Should be pretty simple if you're handy with a screwdriver.

2) It COULD be as simple as just plugging in a 13 amp plug but could be more complicated. As for legality, I'm not sure. Your insurer might insist on a professional installer doing the work though.
 
1. Yes.
2. Yes, but you need to notify your local Building Control office if you don't employ a registered electrician. That might require the payment of a fee, which might be higher than the electrician's charges. Or not.

The rules for kitchens are tighter than for other parts of the house. If you're renting the property I think you need to be squeaky clean in things like this. (Well, I would. YMMV.)

http://electrical.theiet.org/building-regulations/part-p/faqs.cfm
 
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Yeah that's the bit that is confusing me. Question 5 says that replacing things may not be notifiable (though it's talking about sockets and light fittings). But then Q4 seems to suggest that the work is notifiable if you're not NIC/EIC.

I think I might just pay a local electrician the £60 he'd probably charge me.
 
Personally, no matter how easy it may seem, I would use the services of a registered electrician.

Since you are renting the property to others if anything went wrong, even if it wasn't your fault, you could be held liable.
.
 
petersmart said:
Since you are renting the property to others if anything went wrong, even if it wasn't your fault, you could be held liable.
.
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Yeah, there is that. But if it goes wrong and catches fire or something then they won't be suing me. I installed all the smoke detectors using some bits I got on eBay.......... :D
 
I think, as it's a like for like replacement, you'd be ok under the electrical regs to do it yourself. That certainly applies to changing out sockets, switches etc. But for peace of mind and especially as it's a rental property, I'd splash the cash for a sparky to do it.
 
It's an allowable expense for a rental property, so won't actually cost you the £90 :)
 
I'd do it myself, but there again I fit kitchens!
It may be as simple as unplugging, otherwise it will be hard wired to the wall.
Couple of safety points to consider.
The hob should switch off at the wall cooker socket, if not switch off at the mains.
I always check that there is no power to the wires. I have come across cases where wiring is not connected properly.
Invest in a tester like this one linky
 
KitsuneAndy said:
It's an allowable expense for a rental property, so won't actually cost you the £90 :)
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No. But it will cost me more than not paying it ;)

Also, it's a gray area. HMRC allow me to claim 10% of rent against wear and tear OR to claim for stuff that needs replacing. The 10% option works out (much) better for me. It will need a chat with my accountant about whether this is wear and tear or a repair. Tax on rental property is well complicated.
 
gramps said:
This might be helpful :)

http://www.niceic.com/Uploads/File1247.pdf

Though as others have said, as a landlord do you really want the buck to rest with you?
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Thanks. Another bit of scaremongering from the NIC/EIC :D They are usually OK but their stuff on PAT testing tends to be a bit alarmist.

Property gets an electrics check every 5 years anyway. But on this occasion I think I'll end up paying somebody to connect 3 wires.
 
Just as a suggestion - could you do it yourself and then get a sparky to verify it's OK? I assume they'd charge, but maybe less than the cost of actually doing it.

Then again - if it's only the 3 wires, it might be quicker for a 'fessional to do it himself than check someone else's work....
 
That's an idea Bob. But I can't see paying less than an hour's callout to check it. And if they can't do it in an hour they shouldn't really be a professional :)
 
So I got this done today. 30 mins for a couple of qualified electricians to do it - £70. I think they may have spun it out a bit to make it look like it was worth the money ;) They did relabel the fuse board though as it had the wrong label on the circuit they needed.

I asked if I could legally do the work myself and they said yes. Part P would only be an issue if they had to lay a new cable. Like for like is fine. But I was still happy to pay.
 
Only need part P for new circuits and work in special areas (which seems to be within a short distance of a bath or shower nowadays). The most recent BS 7671 a couple of years ago relaxed what is considered notifiable work.

Or you can just ignore part P as an iniquitous imposition by the state on the population. Because connecting a cable to an MCB in a consumer unit is not neurosurgery and doing diversity, grouping, correction factor etc calcs to ensure you use the correct cable and MCB is not rocket science.
 
onomatopoeia said:
Or you can just ignore part P as an iniquitous imposition by the state on the population. Because connecting a cable to an MCB in a consumer unit is not neurosurgery and doing diversity, grouping, correction factor etc calcs to ensure you use the correct cable and MCB is not rocket science.
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Sure. I'd love to. The whole prison thing, not so much.....
 
onomatopoeia said:
Only need part P for new circuits and work in special areas (which seems to be within a short distance of a bath or shower nowadays). The most recent BS 7671 a couple of years ago relaxed what is considered notifiable work.

Or you can just ignore part P as an iniquitous imposition by the state on the population. Because connecting a cable to an MCB in a consumer unit is not neurosurgery and doing diversity, grouping, correction factor etc calcs to ensure you use the correct cable and MCB is not rocket science.
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Just because you understand what is required to calculate the correct equipment rating doesn't mean that the vast majority of the public do, and regulation is basically to protect the rest of us from the lowest common denominator. And don't forget that good workmanship and practical skills are needed, not just knowledge.
It comes up in discussion at work fairly regularly that as a chartered electrical engineer I spend my days designing electrical circuits of voltages up to 1000V but still not allowed to do Part P works.

(I'm pretty sure that the scope of notifiable work is defined in the building regs rather than BS7671)
 
TopBanana said:
It comes up in discussion at work fairly regularly that as a chartered electrical engineer I spend my days designing electrical circuits of voltages up to 1000V but still not allowed to do Part P works.
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Just like Gas qualifications. As a commercial engineer I can work on gas up to 16 Bar pressure. When I went to do my domestic gas I had to provide a portfolio of work to prove I was competent to work at 0.0021 Bar pressure. Jonathan did the right thing, an MCB marked up incorrectly could have killed him if he had no means to test prior to work commencing. My former supervisor killed himself recently working in his parents house. He was a qualified electrician but tended to cut corners. Im not sure of the exact details of his death but maybe he cut one corner too many.
Shame, he was a nice guy..........
 
h14nha said:
Just like Gas qualifications. As a commercial engineer I can work on gas up to 16 Bar pressure. When I went to do my domestic gas I had to provide a portfolio of work to prove I was competent to work at 0.0021 Bar pressure. Jonathan did the right thing, an MCB marked up incorrectly could have killed him if he had no means to test prior to work commencing. My former supervisor killed himself recently working in his parents house. He was a qualified electrician but tended to cut corners. Im not sure of the exact details of his death but maybe he cut one corner too many.
Shame, he was a nice guy..........
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Wow, really sorry to hear that about your old supervisor. It really does highlight how dangerous electricity can be.
 
TopBanana said:
Wow, really sorry to hear that about your old supervisor. It really does highlight how dangerous electricity can be.
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I work with a young electrician now, he's part of the new generation of tradesmen who the ultimate goal is to get the job done quickly. He takes risks I wouldn't dream of. I just can't seem to impress on him to step back and take time :( Today, maintenance engineers have to be proficient in so many disciplines its scary. They cover more complicated pieces of kit, over a much bigger area.
Business demand better service for less money every year and firms cut each others throats to compete. Ultimately, no one wins..........
 
Slightly of topic, so technically if i was doing the following:

moving sockets & adding more sockets in my house ( the first and last socket on the ring are staying, so not touching fuse board) living room / diner only had 4 doubles now increased to 9 across the rooms.

moving and adding sockets in bedroom

Fitting 6 spots in kitchen in place of single light.

Wire in and fit extractor in bathroom and 3 spots

Pull cables back i diner from wall mounted lights to 2 X Ceiling lights.

Running unto the loft ready for when extension is done the cables for sockets and lighting ( this is part of upstairs ring main)

Should i have

a got a proper spark to do work
b done myself and get a spark to test after all work been done

if a slightly defeats object of me getting a house thats need work doing to save money then move it on again a a couple of years
 
c done it yourself, checked it was cool and moved on.

Actually, depending on the work in the kitchen and bathroom it's possible you should have got somebody to check it. Part P regs says that major work in kitchens and bathrooms is notifiable and also new circuits elsewhere but sticking your own lights in dry rooms in your own house shouldn't be notifiable. There's an easy to read version of the regs here - http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf
 
JonathanRyan said:
There's an easy to read version of the regs here - http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf
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Did you read it, Jonathan? Only it contradicts the IET FAQ which I referenced earlier. Check out sections 2.6 and 2.7: it says explicitly that fitting a new built-in cooker is not notifiable unless a new circuit is needed. The IET FAQ lumps kitchens in with other "special locations", but it's clear that the 2013 version of Part P doesn't include a kitchen in "special locations" unless it's got a bath or shower in it.

Looks like you could have saved yourself some money. Maybe the reference I found related to an earlier version of the regulations. That's the trouble with the internet - it's very difficult to know what information is actually reliable and current.
 
StewartR said:
Did you read it, Jonathan? Only it contradicts the IET FAQ which I referenced earlier. Check out sections 2.6 and 2.7: it says explicitly that fitting a new built-in cooker is not notifiable unless a new circuit is needed. The IET FAQ lumps kitchens in with other "special locations", but it's clear that the 2013 version of Part P doesn't include a kitchen in "special locations" unless it's got a bath or shower in it.

Looks like you could have saved yourself some money. Maybe the reference I found related to an earlier version of the regulations. That's the trouble with the internet - it's very difficult to know what information is actually reliable and current.
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I didn't read all of it @StewartR so I missed that bit. Apparently the regs were changed in 2013 to make (amazingly) LESS work notifiable. My link is the new regs (or an interpretation of them).

It's likely I didn't need to spend the money. However, as a technical point.....an electric cooker is often a 3 pin plug, hobs are higher rated and need a different circuit. The guys who fitted it kept muttering about "6 mil".
 
JonathanRyan said:
I didn't read all of it @StewartR so I missed that bit. Apparently the regs were changed in 2013 to make (amazingly) LESS work notifiable. My link is the new regs (or an interpretation of them).

It's likely I didn't need to spend the money. However, as a technical point.....an electric cooker is often a 3 pin plug, hobs are higher rated and need a different circuit. The guys who fitted it kept muttering about "6 mil".
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Our old cooker was a dual fuel gas hob/single electric oven and was wired to a 13A socket from a "normal" cooker point. The new one is also dual fuel but has 2 ovens so the possible maximum current is over 13A, so I got a suitable length of suitable cable from an electrician mate and hard wired it in. Works fine as long as you stay on the rubber mats and the floor's dry... Still had to get a suitably qualified plumber in to do the gas installation, even though it's on a bayonet. Luckily we have a tame plumber who turns up when he says he will and is very reasonable as far as cost goes.

BTW, just in case anyone actually believes the rubber mat thing, it was a joke. You need wellies on as well...
 
Nod said:
Our old cooker was a dual fuel gas hob/single electric oven and was wired to a 13A socket from a "normal" cooker point. The new one is also dual fuel but has 2 ovens so the possible maximum current is over 13A, so I got a suitable length of suitable cable from an electrician mate and hard wired it in. Works fine as long as you stay on the rubber mats and the floor's dry... Still had to get a suitably qualified plumber in to do the gas installation, even though it's on a bayonet. Luckily we have a tame plumber who turns up when he says he will and is very reasonable as far as cost goes.
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Regarding connecting a cooker to a bayonet, see this from the HSE : http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/landlords...g-and-reconnecting-gas-cooking-appliances.pdf

The disconnection/reconnection (at the same location) of a self-sealing appliance connector following installation is not deemed ‘gas work’ and therefore may be carried out by a non-registered person(s), for example when a home owner
temporarily removes the cooker when cleaning.

(there's a load of stuff about installation of the bayonet as well in that document)
 
The new cooker didn't have a bayonet hose fitted but the old did - it was the transfer of the hose from t'old to t'new that we got the plumber in for. He lives about 1/4 mile away and usually drops by for the occasional little jobs we need him to do on his way home in the afternoon/evening. He fitted a new boiler, bathroom taps and towel rail radiator while I was ill and I barely knew he was here apart from when HE brought ME the occasional cuppa if I was awake! I'm (now) confident in my capabilities as far as electrics go - it's pretty hard to do anything lethal with the breaker out and an RCD fitted but gas can make a rather large bang if it goes breasts aloft and while I'm pretty sure I'm competent enough to do the basics, I can afford to pay a certificated competent person to do it correctly so do!

Thanks for the link to the HSE PDF - never knew that I was allowed to do the unplugging/replugging myself. Not that we ever need to - the hose is long enough to get behind the cooker for cleaning.
 
JonathanRyan said:
They are usually OK but their stuff on PAT testing tends to be a bit alarmist.
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I do hate it when it's referred to as a PAT test. The T stands for test already so it must be a Portable Appliance Test Test!

Nod said:
Thanks for the link to the HSE PDF - never knew that I was allowed to do the unplugging/replugging myself.
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It would be ridiculous if you couldn't. That would be the equivalent of having to get an electrician in to plug in a 13 amp plug!


Steve.
 
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Nod said:
The new cooker didn't have a bayonet hose fitted but the old did - it was the transfer of the hose from t'old to t'new that we got the plumber in for.
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That explains it - the screwed end of the hose that attaches to the appliance is considered "gas work" and therefore needs a competent person.

I employed gas safe registered plumber on Monday this week to seal off a redundant pipe (I've gone over to an induction hob so the pipe to the kitchen was redundant and in the way). Happy to pay the sixty quid it cost me, I don't have the test equipment required to ensure the joint didn't leak for one thing, and as you say, gas can make a big bang.
 
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