Quality of Photos for Critique gone downhill??

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Pookeyhead said:
The problem is the rush to proceed that digital promotes. People dive straight in shoot a load of crap and then start processing it to death and they've not even thought about the basics. Most people on here don't even think about WHAT they're shooting... they think it's all capture and processing. When beginners post up images with problems more often that not someone will suggest how to correct it in post... and every time that happens a little piece of my photographer's soul dies.
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I'm speaking from experience on other forums here, so it may not apply to TP, but I've noticed that Photoshop "corrections" are the main focus of expected (and desired) critique. I've suggested that a different viewpoint would help on a couple of occasions (not here) and found that people want to know how to fix it in Photoshop. Comments that don't focus purely on the technical (and supposedly objective) side of photography are ignored or sidelined as "subjective" - no discussion :(. People seem to expect quick fixes post exposure rather than having it pointed out what they should have done before releasing the shutter. As George Eastman never said "you push the button, Photoshop does the rest".

When I first became active on this site, I looked regularly at the critique sections which interested me. I've more or less stopped looking now because so many people put up multiple images for critique in the same opening post, and I don't have the time (or inclination) to offer critique when the photographer is taking a machine gun approach and asking which is best. If they edited down to one and asked for opinions I'd be more likely to respond. Note that I'm not worried about sets or sequences that have to be taken together (although I can't recall seeing any of these).
 
Oxford_Matt said:
I have seen awful images being praised and better images being slaughtered. Just my view.
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That made me stop and think. I have a couple of rules that I apply when deciding whether to offer my opinions. I've referred to the first in my previous post (only one image at a time). The other is that I have to believe that the photographer shows promise. OK, I'll admit that this is arrogance on my part to think I can recognise this - would it help to put it that the photographer appears to be on the same wavelength as me? If I can't see much promise in either the image posted or others from the same photographer, then I'll pass over it. That makes for a natural selection of "adverse" comments from me on "better" images.
 
Oxford_Matt said:
Look I don't think you understand my OP. It may sound a bit harsh. But I was just saying how the quality has dropped. People on here are too worried about leaving negative critique because of the OP's reaction. I have seen awful images being praised and better images being slaughtered. Just my view.
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Critique Section(s) - I can see your point Matt as we have gone through it in the Bird Section, (it used to be a regular feature), where we are always trying to push standards higher, (and IMHO succeeding). I think generally we now take a little more time to get to know each other and especially any "new" poster and try to critique at the appropriate level...... and with some just not bother anymore based on past experience
New people come into the forum regularly and there are some who just want to receive positive comments and get upset with harsh Critique, in many instances because they do not understand what has been said.

I seldom post in other sections, but would think in general, because of negative reactions, people are now very careful about what they say, which IMHO is to the detriment of the Forum for some members at least, but perfectly acceptable for others.

there can be a view that unless you have something nice to say, don't say anything

Your point is a good one to discuss, as I believe that it is an integral part of what this forum is
 
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Oxford_Matt said:
What will me posting my images achieve?

Feel free to view them on here. Probably not to everyone's taste but I put time, though and effort into them and thats all that matters.
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As I said, I really can't be arsed to search.
You have no idea of the time and effort that has gone into images taken by others. All you've done is reach your own conclusions because they're not to your taste.
All your thread here will achieve, is to dissuade people posting images at all.
 
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viv1969 said:
You have no idea of the time and effort that has gone into images taken by others.
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The point that's being missed, is that the larger part of the problem is the time not being put into selecting the images being posted for critique. There are too many photo-dump threads apparently asking for critique. If the thread is along the lines of "Here's some photos of a waterfall I took" followed by twelve very similar images called DSC****.jpg then it's not really a critique request is it? Maybe they just want a pat on the back, in which case it should in Photos For Pleasure, but if you want honest critique you should make the effort of selecting your images and introducing them properly. Good critique of one interesting image can take 20 minutes plus, why the **** should someone take the time to do that for someone that didn't spend twenty seconds thinking about and submitting their thread?

Critique of the week/month worked well for a while, but it seemed to run out of steam - it needed the right material being submitted to work.
 
I can see that no time or no effort has gone into them.
My post will hopefully encourage people to take more time trying to achieve a better image before posting it.
Alastair said:
The point that's being missed, is that the larger part of the problem is the time not being put into selecting the images being posted for critique. There are too many photo-dump threads apparently asking for critique. If the thread is along the lines of "Here's some photos of a waterfall I took" followed by twelve very similar images called DSC****.jpg then it's not really a critique request is it? Maybe they just want a pat on the back, in which case it should in Photos For Pleasure, but if you want honest critique you should make the effort of selecting your images and introducing them properly. Good critique of one interesting image can take 20 minutes plus, why the **** should someone take the time to do that for someone that didn't spend twenty seconds thinking about and submitting their thread?

Critique of the week/month worked well for a while, but it seemed to run out of steam - it needed the right material being submitted to work.
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Very well put Alastair.
 
Photo forums are deeply flawed, how could they not be when populated by the human animal.

Sadly many (most) of us need our ego's massaging and the approval of our peers which results in a need to get our photo's viewed by others.
Photography is incredibly subjective and far better methinks if you can gain sufficient satisfaction from your own work without needing the approval of self styled experts.

Much like the original poster of this thread I am now ready to receive my punishment for daring to have a view.

Fire away :p
 
WingTsun said:
Maybe there should be a given format for how critique comments are structured and everyone follow that structure when posting? Something like:

1. Composition
2. Sharpness/DOF etc..
3. Post Processing
4. Overall success of the shot
5. Other comments

That was just shooting from the hip but you get what I mean. That would hopefully stop the meaningless comments and provide the photographer with what he or she is actually asking for?
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I once belonged to a forum that was just about criticism. The word 'nice' was banned unless you could offer a detailed analysis of why 'nice' was appropriate.
 
Ed Sutton said:
Therein lies the whole problem of seeking criticism on a forum such as this. There are too many wavelengths.
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More than about 250 members and any online group struggles to remain cohesive - and even within a group that size the 80:20 rule applies. Small groups can accommodate multiple wavelengths because it's easier to remember who's on which frequency.
 
Oxford_Matt said:
Look I don't think you understand my OP. It may sound a bit harsh. But I was just saying how the quality has dropped. People on here are too worried about leaving negative critique because of the OP's reaction. I have seen awful images being praised and better images being slaughtered. Just my view.
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I don't understand that, surely your contradicting yourself. You say people are too scared to give negative critique to crap photos but are happy to do so to good ones?

I've seen some poor efforts on here, and not just recently, but the poor ones I find usually receive the critique they deserve. If its poor there are usually members who will tell them so, but often will counter that with, '....this can be improved with....' type of advice
 
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Sejanus Aelianus said:
Perhaps because you wish to share your images with others?
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There are sections of the forum for sharing and sections for critique. These are different sections.

Perhaps this misunderstanding is widespread and lies at the root of the problem.
 
Ian W said:
I do agree that praise where it is NOT due is pretty pointless.
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Surely it's all subjective ... members all vary in experience, ability and genre.
I comment on a variety of genres but I don't profess to be proficient in all of them, if I feel I am not qualified to offer critique I may offer praise or some indication of how pleasing I find the image (which others may not find pleasing). Sometimes an encouraging comment can be more helpful than a mass of critique
 
Too many people like the perfect pretty picture, the technically perfect ( not sure there is such a thing?)
It's not always about perfection, it's the bigger picture, what you can see/evoke from an image.
 
Cg_Girl said:
Too many people like the perfect pretty picture, the technically perfect ( not sure there is such a thing?)
It's not always about perfection, it's the bigger picture, what you can see/evoke from an image.
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That sounds like Emotion and Art, those words will generally get you run out of town by the pitch-fork wielding mob on 'ere.. ;)
 
Alastair said:
That sounds like Emotion and Art, those words will generally get you run out of town by the pitch-fork wielding mob on 'ere.. ;)
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Cg_Girl said:
Hehe I know...I've just barricaded myself in the corner here as a precaution :D
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I'll be on the barricades, fighting off the philistine hoardes as long as I can...
 
Nawty said:
What a load of elitist sanctimonious claptrap. It's quite simple, if you don't like it move on.
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Leading by example? :D
 
Alastair said:
. If the thread is along the lines of "Here's some photos of a waterfall I took" followed by twelve very similar images called DSC****.jpg then it's not really a critique request is it?
.
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Then surely it's easy to move on to another thread rather than bleat about quality in another.
It's easily done.
 
Nawty said:
What a load of elitist sanctimonious claptrap. It's quite simple, if you don't like it move on.
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or, more productively, tell the person why in your opinion it doesn't work, how you feel it could be improved in the execution the next time, possibly how it could be rescued IF the shot was something that could never be repeated, and then sit and hope that the person posting for critique doesn't spit their dummy, but either takes onboard the critique - OR - as everyone is entitleed to do - replies with their reasons for making their decisions - be it an artistic choice, or simply that they didn't shoot from 4 feet to the left because they were on a rocky promentary, and 4 feet to the left was a 1000ft drop :lol:

Agreed, you'll get more dummy spits now than you'd have ever got when I first joined (not THAT long ago... there's plenty (13514 according to the numbers) of members who've been around longer than me...), and it COULD begin to feel a bit of a thankless task, but if you help one person along the road, it's a start... Journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step and all that sort of thing...

or are you telling the OP in this thread to "move on" ??? because, despite the fact that he feels the need to post a pretty damning opinion of the overall level of images posted on here, his opinion is welcomed, and we're all for hearing anyones thoughts on how to improve this... I'd love people to all be able to post "better" (in their own eyes, and of others) images - which is why I do occasionally take time to give my help and opinion where I think I can make a positive input... I do think that there are quite a lot of images posted purely "to share" and that it should be made clear that sharing needs to be done in the "for pleasure" bit, I'm hoping that something will come out of the massive "what can we do better" thread once Marcel's digested all the suggestions and formulated a plan of attack...
 
I don't really care about the quality of images posted, for me it's more about the quality of critique these images are given to help those that need and want it to improve, but for as long as we have people that just post empty platitudes or parrot what others have already said the critique sections will continue to go down hill, personally I'd advocate a minimum character counter that has to be hit before a comment will actually post, make it just enough that it forces people to either put a little thought in to what they say on an image or not post at all...I'd also restrict access to the sections to anyone who is found to be posting only or mainly platitudes
 
gramps said:
Surely it's all subjective ... members all vary in experience, ability and genre.
I comment on a variety of genres but I don't profess to be proficient in all of them, if I feel I am not qualified to offer critique I may offer praise or some indication of how pleasing I find the image (which others may not find pleasing). Sometimes an encouraging comment can be more helpful than a mass of critique
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I've learned much about critique and giving constructive comments from reading your posts, Roger, and encouragement is very welcoming.

Many/most photographs can have points that can be criticised and points that are very good. To me, the art is being gentle with the critical parts but also praising the better aspects of the image. Both are equally important but it would be a shame to be critical on a tiny detail to what is otherwise a great capture.
 
I wonder if part of the problem is that is when posting a photograph of say a bird, if you post in the "photos for pleasure" section it may not be seen but if you post in the "Nature Photos - Birds" you open yourself up for critique.
 
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Alastair said:
A lot of people are putting very little thought into self-editing or thinking about their images before posting for critique, and to that extent I can agree with Matt. A greater degree of self reflection before posting would improve the overall critique experience for everyone.
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+1 zillions!
 
A question people can ask themselves, "If I could only submit one photograph for critique this month would it be this one?"

If you need to think about it too long, the answer's "Probably not", which is as good as "No".

Critique forums/groups also tend to work best when they place just enough restrictions to force life's natural non-thinkers to pause a moment. By definition, 50% of TP members are less thoughtful than the average.
 
Oxford_Matt said:
Really!! I'm not joking when I say my 6 year old son could do better... So what does that tell you. Apart from he's pretty good tog for his age. :)
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Depends how you define 'better'. Can he take a photograph that is an incisive comment on the age of economic austerity? Or is it pretty sunsets with level horizons, no blown highlights and vibrancy and clarity pushed to eleven?

Just askin'. :D
 
Alastair said:
A question people can ask themselves, "If I could only submit one photograph for critique this month would it be this one?"

If you need to think about it too long, the answer's "Probably not", which is as good as "No".

Critique forums/groups also tend to work best when they place just enough restrictions to force life's natural non-thinkers to pause a moment. By definition, 50% of TP members are less thoughtful than the average.
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some bird/wildlife forums only allow you to submit one image a day, (I am not suggesting that this should happen on this forum)
 
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TheBigYin said:
or are you telling the OP in this thread to "move on" ??? because, despite the fact that he feels the need to post a pretty damning opinion of the overall level of images posted on here, his opinion is welcomed, and we're all for hearing anyones thoughts on how to improve this... I'd love people to all be able to post "better" (in their own eyes, and of others) images - which is why I do occasionally take time to give my help and opinion where I think I can make a positive input... I do think that there are quite a lot of images posted purely "to share" and that it should be made clear that sharing needs to be done in the "for pleasure" bit, I'm hoping that something will come out of the massive "what can we do better" thread once Marcel's digested all the suggestions and formulated a plan of attack...
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My view is that if you let things that don't appeal to your aesthetic or intellectual standards upset you then you will spend you whole life upset and angry and end up think yourself holier than thou. There's no need to get upset about it, no need to create a thread bitching about it, it hasn't actually done you any harm, move on.

FWIW I don't think there is anything wrong with the forum and what you are trying to 'fix' is behaviour, and that is a very different matter because societal expectations of behaviour change on a generation basis and there's little you can do to stop it, that doesn't mean you can't be civil and constructive about it though.

You see, this thread's already turned into a 'my dad's harder than your dad' argument and that is behavioural, nothing to do with forum per-se.

By the way, I am fully aware of the irony of my posts :D
 
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