Qualifications

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Ian
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Hi Everyone,

I'm just after a bit of advice on qualifications.
I've been a full time pro-photographer for about 7 years. I've decided that I'd like to work towards some sort of official qualification. The bulk of my work is sports and events, Kids portriats, Occasional wedding, Occassional glamour.
I've a full range of Pro spec canon equipment.
I've looked at BIPP, SWPP, etc etc

any advice greatly appreciated
 
To be honest- don't bother none of the societies you mention matter at all. Your work is your qualification.
 
I was working as a tog for 8 years and had quals. But it was getting harder going for jobs as I had shed loads of experience but companies wanted the bit of paper.

So I went for a HND at a college up North. They let me skip the first year and I did the rest part time in 9months with my portfolio. just went in once a week and did evening work to keep up. which was great as I kept my job at the Sports agency I worked at.

I was well chuffed. Got the paper and did it in under half the time a full time student would.

Oh I had to pay for it myself. which was not a prob. No grants and stuff.

Most employers would like at least City N Guilds 747 Pt 1 & 2. Do they still do those ????
 
Lindsay D said:
The qualifications matter a great deal to the people who have spent years building their skills and putting their Panel together.
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Unfortunatly you are right... But it matters nothing to anyone else.. I would ask the OP (who seems to be doing well enough as a 7yr full time pro) how many times when sorting a job out have you been asked what qualifications you have and if any job ever relied on your answer?
 
KIPAX said:
Unfortunatly you are right... But it matters nothing to anyone else.. I would ask the OP (who seems to be doing well enough as a 7yr full time pro) how many times when sorting a job out have you been asked what qualifications you have and if any job ever relied on your answer?
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A while ago I was contacted regarding a corporate assignment but in the end the client eventually decided only to shortlist those photographers with a formal distinction - specifically from the MPA/BIPP. Of course, basing his choice on that tells him nothing about that photographer's customer service or ethos and so forth. But my point is that some clients do place a lot of weight on formal achievement.

I have very mixed feelings about the whole qualification process and chose not to become involved with it - but if clients repeatedly start to raise it then I may have to reconsider.
 
Lindsay D said:
A while ago I was contacted regarding a corporate assignment but in the end the client eventually decided only to shortlist those photographers with a formal distinction - specifically from the MPA/BIPP. Of course, basing his choice on that tells him nothing about that photographer's customer service or ethos and so forth. But my point is that some clients do place a lot of weight on formal achievement.

I have very mixed feelings about the whole qualification process and chose not to become involved with it - but if clients repeatedly start to raise it then I may have to reconsider.
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One in how many over how many yrs? and does the years taken to gain those qualifications make it worth it to get 1 job in 500 that may ask?

I still bet the OP hasn't seen it as a problem :) because if he had then he wouldnt be posing the question..
 
I'd always ask for the paperwork as well as the experince. I don't want to train someone up from scratch. I'd like to think I could through any job at them and they would cope with any situation. I look at the paper work as being grounded in the basics. Then they just just learn the job you are in.

Any one can show a portfolio of work. did they do it over a year or can they produce the same high standard a 100 times a day with the commercial pressure of deadlines?

Proper qualifications are fine... But joining a group like SWPP or AOP isis daft.

Im a member of PMA and all they wanted was the fee. Like SWPP.

If it is an acciation with said group then go for one that you submit work too. Then you know they have a standard of membership. Like the Royal photograpic that sort of thing.

It's far to easy to go and join some groups.

I would love the German system where you can not even advertise as a tog unlees you have a formal qual and have a proven record as well studied a bit about business studies. You certainly would not get the amount of people claiming tobe togs as we do now.

There is more to the way the Germans do it. but that explaination would go on for ages.
 
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These qualifications are of no use whatsoever when it comes to getting work, but as far as personal goals go they have their place. Of the various associations only the RPS and BIPP seem to have much integrity when it comes to qualifications, the rest are really only out to take your money IMO.
 
Daryl said:
I'd always ask for the paperwork as well as the experince. I don't want to train someone up from scratch. I'd like to think I could through any job at them and they would cope with any situation. I look at the paper work as being grounded in the basics. Then they just just learn the job you are in.

Any one can show a portfolio of work. did they do it over a year or can they produce the same high standard a 100 times a day with the commercial pressure of deadlines?

Proper qualifications are fine... But joining a group like SWPP or AOP isis daft.

Im a member of PMA and all they wanted was the fee. Like SWPP.

If it is an acciation with said group then go for one that you submit work too. Then you know they have a standard of membership. Like the Royal photograpic that sort of thing.

It's far to easy to go and join some groups.

I would love the German system where you can not even advertise as a tog unlees you have a formal qual and have a proven record as well studied a bit about business studies. You certainly would not get the amount of people claiming tobe togs as we do now.

There is more to the way the Germans do it. but that explaination would go on for ages.
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Lots of very good points in there Daryl, but I need to correct you on one thing - you can't just join something like the SWPP and automatically get some kind of qualification or letters after your name - I'm not sure who told you that. The membership fee simply grants you access to the forum, a very good magazine, the chance to network with other photographers, and some mentoring which most people find very valuable (I have no personal experience of it). The difference between SWPP and MPA/BIPP is that qualification is not mandatory to membership. If you want qualifications however you have to go through the whole long and arduous process of putting a panel together which is judged by a group of Fellows (often the same Fellowship who judge on RPS panels, amongst others) before you can obtain any kind of distinction. Incidentally SWPP standards have ramped up to the most ruthless degree - it's now harder to get an SWPP Licentiate than it is an MPA one for example. I saw some SWPP Licentiate panels at their convention in January - I was blown away by the quality of the work. At Associate and Fellowship level the standards are equally high across all the bodies. There's no doubt that there must be a sense of personal achievement for the recipients. However panels are more about pleasing the judges than demonstrating your own style of photography.
 
My point being, Stay away from Acciate sites/membership. The ones that count are City n Guild 747 Pt 1 & 2. A HND or a Degree in photography.

Anything to with BIPP, SWPP etc the general public to not have a scooby or careless.

Only ones that count for getting jobs are One of the above and a show of experience.

Associate with an organisation is a personnel thing. That will be down to the tog.

When I have ever taken any one on we have wanted a recognised National qualification.
From college or UNI. We want to train togs/lab technicians who know the basics so they can adapt to the job required.
 
Daryl, I've met many photographers with HNDs, and even Degrees in Photography - who would not have been competent enough to complete the most straightforward assignment. My view is that such qualifications are most definitely not important. I think what really matters is experience and a strong and relevant portfolio. That doesn't mean that qualifications shouldn't count in principle - the point of them is that they should - but the problem is that the content of most courses doesn't prepare a photographer for the job in hand, let alone give them a grounding on the realities of the business.
 
As an employer as was my father before me, I would sooner employ someone with experience and recommendations over qualifications every time.

Realspeed
 
True, but what if two people apply, both have equal experience and a good portfolio but one is qualified with industry recognised certifications? Even better if the person employing knows of the associations (the real ones that is).

I agree that they are not they are not necessary in anyway, but sometimes it can give you the edge over your competitors. I know it has for me more than once.
 
I have never really been asked if I had any qualifications. Maybe in passing on an application form thing to be put on the books, but it's never made a difference and most of the time it's never been brought up in meetings either.

The only time i've ever found it to matter is if you're applying to work in the NHS/forensics etc.

I never finished my degree, but sometime in future (when i'm not changing cities every other month) even if i'm 60, i'd like to do the final year. Not because it matters, but because i'd like to have a degree in something. One of those 'to do in life'.

Everyone I know from years ago from 3 different degree classes who all finished the degree (bar 2 people) are now all working minimum wage jobs/non photography related jobs.

Swings & Roundabouts.

I always say if you can actually start working as a photographer (assistant, temp or whatever) go for it, because 3 years good experience > 3 years degree. If you can't get work and have no clue, then degree will help your knowledge base get going.
 
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Lyndsey, depends on the HND oe Diploma... If it is an arty farty one agreed.

City n Guilds 747 pt 1 & 2 is professional competant.

Mine was done in every didsapline as a job. You had produce the job to the brief and bill the client. It taught you to work out the shoot, perform it and work out time and costs.

some we have had where they shoot a section of peeling wallpaper and then spend over a month to produce a print. Total B"""""ocks those.

But I defy anyone to say the C&G 747 is not worth doing. Is it still done now?

Nope it's called an HLQ 4448
What are the qualifications about?
Learn essential and specialist photography and business skills with the Higher Professional Diploma in Photo Imaging.

Who are they for?
For a Diploma in Photo Imaging you'll ideally be working in photography or have access to a work experience setting.
The qualification is designed for anyone who's serious about a career in things like:
- Photography general
- fashion photography
- portraiture
- laboratory management

Why any one wants todo arty farty course must have the 'X Factor EGO'
 
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Bits of paper open doors that might otherwise be closed, sad but true.

The bit of paper shows a level of knowledge, technically understanding, ability to learn and dedication. In turn this does not necessary mean you area a better then someone without a qualification.

Being at the top of ones profession requires many skills such as flare, eye for detail, hands on experience, knowledge of what works, time management, client management, interpersonal skills to name but a few. Some of these skills are very hard to teach in an academic environment.

Colleges and Uni’s are hit and miss even know they teach the same course and curriculum your learning out comes can verily wildly. The teacher is the key if you get a poor one the course can be a waste of time and money.

Normally the more effort you put into a course the more you will learn and develop, some people just turn up and do the minimum required to pass just to gain the paper.

Just my thoughts.
 
[[http://www.photoanswers.co.uk/Advic...ucation/City--Guilds-various-courses--levels/ level1]]

The City and Guilds Level 1 course is 7511.

I am taking it, it is basic, but for a total beginner, thats a good thing!!!

I am only taking it to give me some structure and get me out of the house really. I am not expecting it to open any doors, Im not even sure I want it to. I would love to do some work experience with some photographers though, is that something that is likely to be possible (I am 40 btw not a school leaver).
 
Hi. A RPS distinction is not a qualification, but it seems to be well regarded. The difference with a RPS distinction is it is awarded by peer review. If its not good enough, your panel will not be accepted.
 
Photodiva said:
Hi. A RPS distinction is not a qualification, but it seems to be well regarded. The difference with a RPS distinction is it is awarded by peer review. If its not good enough, your panel will not be accepted.
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True but not strictly true unless I'm mis-interperating the word peer. It is marked by other members of the RPS but only members with a higher qualification than the one your trying to attain.

Would be interesting to see the people who think it's not worth the paper it's written on actually reach a standard to get one!
 
My view on the L A and F thing is that it is a thing for a photographer to do to for themselves for their own reasons. Some it will be ego, some it will be pride, some it will be about achievement or challenge. Ultimately it means nothing to customers, yes a businessman can use it as a sales tool but in reality by the time a B&G / client sees you it is about personality not photography IMO.
 
MartinH32 said:
True but not strictly true unless I'm mis-interperating the word peer. It is marked by other members of the RPS but only members with a higher qualification than the one your trying to attain.

Would be interesting to see the people who think it's not worth the paper it's written on actually reach a standard to get one!
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I guess that's true, but they are members of the RPS and photographers. And I agree with your second part, too :)
 
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