Profoto, worth it?
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Garry Edwards
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Like most things, they have their good points but have major weaknesses too - design faults that you wouldn't expect with such expensive products, but the quality of the light is excellent and they are well made.
I agree with Kris on this - try before you buy.
I agree with Kris on this - try before you buy.
POAH
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unless you need small light lights I'd probably not bother with them
gman
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Sounds like you've already made your mind up.
Unless you absolutely need something and only if it will pay for itself and more, then I'd say that in this current financial climate it's better to go with what will simply do the job and keep the rest of your cash in the bank - in case things go pear shaped.
itsdavedotnet
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https://BANNED/#!/CalumetPhotoUK/status/7463725153910784 if you're *very* quick, 25% off rental for this thurs->mon weekend from Drummond Street Calumet... 
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treeman
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Whilst googling around for info about Profoto lights, I keep seeing statements about the quality of the light, and they don't just mean in terms of temperature and consistency. I've seen more than one statement saying some togs can tell when a Profoto light was used, I find that very hard to believe. :shrug:
As for hiring, to see for myself, I'll look into it, but last time i wanted to hire something from Calumet, (a digital Hassey) they wanted a full value deposit and I'd have to arrange my own collection and delivery!
As for hiring, to see for myself, I'll look into it, but last time i wanted to hire something from Calumet, (a digital Hassey) they wanted a full value deposit and I'd have to arrange my own collection and delivery!
Garry Edwards
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So do I.
It's the use of light that makes the difference, and any light of any brand can produce any result provided that
1. The colour temperature is consistent
2. The flash energy is consistent.
I don't see how anyone can possibly identify the equipment used just by looking at a photo. What people can do however is to identify the photographer, and if the photographer is known to favour a particular brand...
I think it's just marketing hype. You get that with the Leica/Zeiss crowd. I've heard numerous claims that they can tell the image quality difference between a Canon/Nikon lens and a Zeiss one. Even funnier, some even claims to be able to spot the difference in IQ between German-made Zeiss glass and Japanese made ones!
That is IMO fanboi cult going to the extreme. With the Profoto claim, it's probably more of a marketing message than anything else.
itsdavedotnet
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I think that it may well be that anything /very/ good.... will most likely either be bron, briesse or profoto... because anyone /very/ good can justify using these tools, and also need to use this level of reliability of tools...
JonathanRyan
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Lights are like a lot of things (hifi, cars, wine etc) - to get 80% of the way to "perfection" is pretty cheap and easy. To get 90% there is at least double the cost. 95%? Double again. And so on. Down to the bit where your oxygen free interconnect costs more than my entire stereo system.
What's happened recently is that the quality of the mid range/budget kit has improved and some really cheap stuff has come in at the bottom. 3 - 4 years ago a decent pair of Elinchroms cost about £1K. Now you can get the very nice D-Lite 4s for £220 each.
Top end has stayed the top end though. Even the entry level Acute Value kit will cost you £2,500 + vat for a pack and 2 heads. But go in any top end fashion studio and I'll lay money that you'll see Pros or Brons. Very fast flash duration, high speed recycling and build quality that means it will flash all day every day for years.
But unless you're doing a LOT of shooting, need absolute colour accuracy or shortest possible flash durations it's kind of hard to justify for personal use.
Interestingly, the only head I've ever seen with smoke coming out of the back of it was a ProFoto mono. But then it was this guy using it at the time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxAZFUfsyLM
What's happened recently is that the quality of the mid range/budget kit has improved and some really cheap stuff has come in at the bottom. 3 - 4 years ago a decent pair of Elinchroms cost about £1K. Now you can get the very nice D-Lite 4s for £220 each.
Top end has stayed the top end though. Even the entry level Acute Value kit will cost you £2,500 + vat for a pack and 2 heads. But go in any top end fashion studio and I'll lay money that you'll see Pros or Brons. Very fast flash duration, high speed recycling and build quality that means it will flash all day every day for years.
But unless you're doing a LOT of shooting, need absolute colour accuracy or shortest possible flash durations it's kind of hard to justify for personal use.
Interestingly, the only head I've ever seen with smoke coming out of the back of it was a ProFoto mono. But then it was this guy using it at the time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxAZFUfsyLM
David Hobby chose Profoto, as do many photographers whose work I admire.
His thoughts are here:
http://strobist.blogspot.com/2010/05/follow-up-choosing-big-lights.html
His thoughts are here:
http://strobist.blogspot.com/2010/05/follow-up-choosing-big-lights.html
Garry Edwards
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Basically there are 2 types of photographers who 'need' very fast recycling - complete beginners who think that if they use their camera like a machine gun they're bound to get some good shots, and fashion photographers, who really do need to take loads of shots.
It's the high end fashion smudgers who really need gear like Profoto because they need the very short flash durations, the very fast recycling and the very consistent colour temp. IMO anyone who doesn't need these qualities doesn't need to spend that much money, although of course there's no reason why people shouldn't spend more than they really need to on equipment, just as there's no reason why people shouldn't buy supercars even though the car can travel at 3 x the speed limit
Top level lighting such as Bron and Profoto has always been expensive. 2nd tier stuff like Elinchrom & Bowens was always the gear of choice for most of us, and was still very expensive for what it was - but now there are real alternatives and this competition has driven prices right down and value right up, making the price gap between mid range and top range even greater, and even harder to justify in terms of value.
For people who haven't done fashion...
Before digital, when I was always shooting 6 x 7 on a RZ67 with 10 shots to a roll, there would always be 2 assistants whose job it was just to load film into the backs and to have a loaded back always ready to hand over - and they couldn't always keep up. Now, shooting on digital, it's the camera that can't keep up
It's the high end fashion smudgers who really need gear like Profoto because they need the very short flash durations, the very fast recycling and the very consistent colour temp. IMO anyone who doesn't need these qualities doesn't need to spend that much money, although of course there's no reason why people shouldn't spend more than they really need to on equipment, just as there's no reason why people shouldn't buy supercars even though the car can travel at 3 x the speed limit
Top level lighting such as Bron and Profoto has always been expensive. 2nd tier stuff like Elinchrom & Bowens was always the gear of choice for most of us, and was still very expensive for what it was - but now there are real alternatives and this competition has driven prices right down and value right up, making the price gap between mid range and top range even greater, and even harder to justify in terms of value.
For people who haven't done fashion...
Before digital, when I was always shooting 6 x 7 on a RZ67 with 10 shots to a roll, there would always be 2 assistants whose job it was just to load film into the backs and to have a loaded back always ready to hand over - and they couldn't always keep up. Now, shooting on digital, it's the camera that can't keep up
JonathanRyan
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Not the first time I've read that and I respect his opinion very much - but I'm surprised to see he's going for the party line and saying "The quality of light pushed into those tools is legendary, too."
Before he made his choice, I sat in a room where he said that the modifiers don't really care what produced the light - there is basically no such thing as "quality" of light.
Also worth remembering that the eye watering prices he's quoting are roughly half UK ones and that the outstanding rental network only extends to very selected areas if you're outside the M25
[On a shoot in Hampshire I got quoted £350 rental and £1,000 delivery]For people who haven't done fashion...
Before digital, when I was always shooting 6 x 7 on a RZ67 with 10 shots to a roll, there would always be 2 assistants whose job it was just to load film into the backs and to have a loaded back always ready to hand over - and they couldn't always keep up. Now, shooting on digital, it's the camera that can't keep up
Yeah I can tell when I'm "working" hard because the Hasselblad actually heats up - and that's at a very modest 1.2 seconds per frame
I dont regard Elinchrom as second tier whatsoever.
I first got turned on to Elinchrom seeing Bob Carlos Clarke in his studio. Other world renowned photographers use Elinchrom through choice as well.
I like David Bailey's stance on this.
he was lecturing in London once many years ago and a photographer was trying to get Bailey to tell him what kind of lights he was using.
"Available light" quipped Bailey
and his inquisitor kept on about what kind of lights did he use.
"Look, I use any f***ing light that's available!"
It's not about what name it has on it but how you use it. You could take £5K of profoto gear, stick two softboxes on them light a subject flat as a fart and the "quality of light" would still be pants. It's not going to get good just because it's got a profoto badge on it
When buying lighting, personally, I think it's a case of looking at build quality, availability and pricing of modifiers and access to spares. If it ticks all of those boxes it will do nicely.
he was lecturing in London once many years ago and a photographer was trying to get Bailey to tell him what kind of lights he was using.
"Available light" quipped Bailey
and his inquisitor kept on about what kind of lights did he use.
"Look, I use any f***ing light that's available!"
It's not about what name it has on it but how you use it. You could take £5K of profoto gear, stick two softboxes on them light a subject flat as a fart and the "quality of light" would still be pants. It's not going to get good just because it's got a profoto badge on it
When buying lighting, personally, I think it's a case of looking at build quality, availability and pricing of modifiers and access to spares. If it ticks all of those boxes it will do nicely.
mho
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When i got my profoto gear, the criteria i had to fill was: -
1. It had to be within my budget (advised of budget from accountant etc)
2. it had to be well made
3. Have the appropriate light modifiers available i wanted
4. spares would be available world wide
5. major hire companies would hold stock world wide in case i needed anything extra.
Everything was OK apart from i couldn't get what i needed for my budget, so i decided to look at used gear and again it was too high price. then out of chance i stumbled across and ad a studio had put up saying they were going out of business and all their gear was for sale, luck was in for me as it was profoto and 95% of what i was looking for, appointment booked and off i went, well to my surprise all they had been using it for was studio portraits, everything was all ok, receipts provided for original purchase and for my purchase, the best thing for me was the price 1/5th the price of it all new.
I was well chuffed, the packs and heads went for a service all was OK so now i have my dream lighting kit for a price me and my accountant was well chuffed at, and it has left me enough money over to buy some extra lighting gear etc.
It pays to not rush into these things and keep all your options open.
1. It had to be within my budget (advised of budget from accountant etc)
2. it had to be well made
3. Have the appropriate light modifiers available i wanted
4. spares would be available world wide
5. major hire companies would hold stock world wide in case i needed anything extra.
Everything was OK apart from i couldn't get what i needed for my budget, so i decided to look at used gear and again it was too high price. then out of chance i stumbled across and ad a studio had put up saying they were going out of business and all their gear was for sale, luck was in for me as it was profoto and 95% of what i was looking for, appointment booked and off i went, well to my surprise all they had been using it for was studio portraits, everything was all ok, receipts provided for original purchase and for my purchase, the best thing for me was the price 1/5th the price of it all new.
I was well chuffed, the packs and heads went for a service all was OK so now i have my dream lighting kit for a price me and my accountant was well chuffed at, and it has left me enough money over to buy some extra lighting gear etc.
It pays to not rush into these things and keep all your options open.