Professionals.

ConfusedChicca said:
See it's threads like this that sometimes I get a bit disheartened. Just because people don't have the most expensive cameras does not mean they're not talented photographers.
Can't say I think of myself as "professional" though, I enjoy my photography too much to think of it in job terms, even though I get paid for it.
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Errrr! the only reference I made to equipment was DSLR.
My thread was about the talentless promoting themselves as officionado's.
I have compared my pictures to those from the people I aspire to and almost every time my stuff looks sub standard.
Perhaps I set my sights too high, perhaps my stuff really is junk, either way, I do not want to fall into the ranks of the deluded believing my work to be pro.
 
To me, professional has nothing to do with the standard or type of the work, but just suggests the person does this as their job. Although I wouldn't say I'm a 'professional' software developer, there isn't really any need, as there probably aren't many 'amateur' ones!! I've been paid for photography work before, but have no desire to even try and make a living out of it. But I may still say I'm a photographer (i.e. someone who takes photos) if/when required, i.e. if contacting someone for permission to visit somewhere.

Regarding watermarks... yes, some are obtrusive and pointless. My own are usually a small discreet (size 8 Arial, bottom right) notification of the website they're hosted at. This is because many of my photos get linked (out of interest for their subject matter, not because they're particularly amazing photos), and I like people who see them to know where they're from. If I'm loosing bandwidth to remote linking, I'd like a bit of advertising in return.
 
Ian T said:
To me, professional has nothing to do with the standard or type of the work, but just suggests the person does this as their job. Although I wouldn't say I'm a 'professional' software developer, there isn't really any need, as there probably aren't many 'amateur' ones!! I've been paid for photography work before, but have no desire to even try and make a living out of it. But I may still say I'm a photographer (i.e. someone who takes photos) if/when required, i.e. if contacting someone for permission to visit somewhere.

Regarding watermarks... yes, some are obtrusive and pointless. My own are usually a small discreet (size 8 Arial, bottom right) notification of the website they're hosted at. This is because many of my photos get linked (out of interest for their subject matter, not because they're particularly amazing photos), and I like people who see them to know where they're from. If I'm loosing bandwidth to remote linking, I'd like a bit of advertising in return.
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You'd be surprised just how many amateur software developers there are! The game modding community is packed with them and so is the open source scene.

Excellent point on the watermarks, I can see the sense of a small indicator of ownership it's just when you see some slightly out of focus picture of a ford fiesta parked in an industrial estate with a giant watermark straight accross the middle you have to wonder why? It ruins an already ropey photo!
 
Matt Charlton said:
:agree: with awp

It doesn't matter what the equipment is, its what the end result is.

Attitude is paramount and I hope that I didn't come across as being arrogant or brash - I was just trying to put across the point that people should be allowed to call themselves photographers :(
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Calling yourself a photographer implies you have attained some level of proficiency which sets you aside from the happy snapper.
I have browsed many "Photographers" home pages and, to tell the truth, I am in hysterics at what people are brazen enough to display as art works.

I can see some mileage in large signatures and water marks as these tend to draw the viewers eye away from the detritus that lays behind!
 
Are you just going back through the thread to try and pick fights with people now?

If you feel so strongly about what people on this forum decide to call themselves and display as art or whatever else they want to call it then perhaps this isn't the place for you?
 
The truth is photography is getting easier with digital, you can get feedback of your mistakes immediately and learn from them and with the web you also have a market to promote yourself and sell your images.

As cameras continue to improve and the web develops further the situation is just going to become exaggerated further, at the end of the day quality and creativity are the only differentiating factors.

There is no way I would call myself a professional, but I am thinking about setting up a portfolio, just as a way of letting people see my photos (no matter how bad they may be :) ) I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
 
Matt Charlton said:
Are you just going back through the thread to try and pick fights with people now?

If you feel so strongly about what people on this forum decide to call themselves and display as art or whatever else they want to call it then perhaps this isn't the place for you?
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Perhaps I should have re-phrased that as, calling ones self a photographer as opposed to yourself a photographer, as the comment was not directed at an individual.
I will however, still contest what right people have to call themselves photographers.

I assume the "this isn't the place for you?" comment is written to make me look like the antagonist here!
 
To be fair, I don't see this thread as a problem. I think it's good that things are challenged. Otherwise we'd live in a patronising world where everything is just fine.

Still, from where would you obtain a seal of approval to call yourself a photographer? Surely a photographer is just someone who photographs things? Perhaps we're unclear on the exact meaning of the terminology?
 
Ian T said:
In fact, to be fair, it's how I started!!


Yes, perhaps it does. I like to think I've attained some level of proficiency.
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Well done, at leat you have attained a standard recognised by other professional bodies.
There is no shame in starting out as an amateur, my point is, some people appear to start out as professionals, and that is a somewhat dubious title for those without a proven track record.
 
Well to be fair most of your posts in this thread have been about how rubbish you find many people's pictures and websites. If you're not the antagonist then you're doing a very good job of pretending to be.

I apologise for that comment but do feel that you need to take stock of what you're actually saying.

Is proficiency using manual mode as opposed to full auto?

I really don't know what you're trying to say.
 
soupdragon said:
Well done, at leat you have attained a standard recognised by other professional bodies.
There is no shame in starting out as an amateur, my point is, some people appear to start out as professionals, and that is a somewhat dubious title for those without a proven track record.
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We were talking about software development, not photography!! But the same principles apply.

As far as photography goes, despite having work printed/paid for, I'd describe myself as very much an amateur, simply because I don't do it for a living.
 
And here you have it. it must be true wikipedia says so


A professional is a worker required to possess a large body of knowledge derived from extensive academic study (usually tertiary), with the training almost always formalized.

Professionals are at least to a degree self-regulating, in that they control the training and evaluation processes that admit new persons to the field, and in judging whether the work done by their members is up to standard. This differs from other kinds of work where regulation (if considered necessary) is imposed by the state, or where official quality standards are often lacking. Professions have some historical links to guilds in these regards.

Professionals usually have autonomy in the workplace—they are expected to utilize their independent judgement and professional ethics in carrying out their responsibilities.[4] This holds true even if they are employees instead of working on their own. Typically a professional provides a service (in exchange for payment or salary), in accordance with established protocols for licensing, ethics, procedures, standards of service and training / certification

Most commonly an amateur is understood to be someone who does something without pay or formal training. Conversely, a professional is someone who has received training in a particular area and who also makes a living from it. The word comes from French, and can be translated as "lover of", reflecting the amateur's motivation to work as a result of a love or passion for a particular activity.

 
Interestingly enough, here's what wikipedia has down for photographer

A photographer is a person who takes a photograph using a camera. A professional photographer uses photography to make a living.
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Interesting thread this. I think the real issue is over the word "professional".

I've worked in IT for over 20 years and even though i don't have any recognised qualifications I still regard myself as a professional, as this is my "profession", as in this is what brings the money in each month.

I also class myself as a photographer, as i take "photographs" that family/ friends / strangers appear to like and indeed have bought prints over the past few years. I'm not however a professional photographer as this isn't my profession.
 
Re Wikipedia... That's exactly what I'd have thought myself.

EDIT: Milestone - yes, just like me then!
 
I'm in the same boat as milestone and Ian T.

I agree the issue is with the use of the word professional that the OP has issues with but it's more "professional standards" rather than "profession".
 
The difference is this....

If I pay a professional (in any profession) I expect a particular level of quality. If you cannot deliver that quality you shouldn't class your self as a "professional".

I don't care how much experience you have, what qualifications you've obtained and what equipment you use.

It's a results driven business, and I expect a "professional" to act in a professional manner and deliver what I, as the paying customer, consider to be professional results.

End of really.

Me, well I have a 350D, some lenses, some other kit and some business acumen. Which is why I wouldn't ever class myself as a professional photographer. But a photographer I am, because I take photos....

.
 
Wow - this thread is almost worthy of a handbag, but not quite cos i dont think its got quite so irrational yet :D

Frankly, who cares? Really? I've read something about 'you're stealing work from a photographer'? Erm, stealing........?

My view, basically, if someone wants to buy what you're selling its because they want it. With a little work and application and understanding anyone can take good pictures. Does that make you a photographer? Maybe. Does it make you a professional? Not really.

But lets make one thing very clear - being called a professional doesn't make a photographer good in the same way that writing garbage doesn't make a journalist a Booker Prize Winner, or talking utter crap a nobhead a primeminister. well, maybe the first analogy had better legs :lol:
 
Marcel said:
The one thing that does make me cringe about the 'I've just picked a camera up, and I'm now a professional' brigade, is the prenetiousness that often accompanies it.
I've found that in this situation, the person will be taking snapshots of things without even giving the photo a second thought, and accompanying it with pretentious arty titles.
For example a bland photo of something like a shoe and giving it the title "In the face of adversity".

(God help me if someone actually did that...lol)
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rofl you really do see more of this happening than one would imagine, we should have some kinda competition to find the most inappropriately named shot on the web :-)
 
By the never in error wikipedia and by applying the same logic, I am a footballer, cricketer, astronomer....................
Ie, I've kicked a ball, swung a cricket bat and looked through a telescope.

Without refering to some standard the word photographer on it's own implies someone is experienced and/or qualified.
It is still misleading however without defining either keen/amateur or professional status.

Classic examples of which are, people with web sites calling themselves photographers where; their portrait gallery consists of people with washing lines or domestic equipment behind them as backdrops or, have obviously used the on board flash to cast attractive shadows around the sitter.

These are not the works of photographers just self made amateurs.
 
I would like to be a professional photographer, I don't care much for the qualifications, but believe it is the image that counts.
In this context I mean I want to make my living from my photography. I have a long way to go. I take many pictures, and am happy with few of them. I do learn from them though. I make less silly mistakes, like things sticking out of people's heads, and wonky buildings/horizons.
I saw my first published photograph today, almost half the back page of the student paper. I didn't think the pictures were wonderful when I'd taken them, but it was a grey miserable morning, and they served the purpose for which they were taken.
 
I'm glad that you took the time to look at my portrait gallery, I think these were some of the first couple of shots I took with the 350d within a few days of getting it. I haven't added to it for a few years now actually.

You're just trolling now, admit it.

And yes, I'm a photographer.
 
nutter426 said:
I would like to be a professional photographer, I don't care much for the qualifications, but believe it is the image that counts.
In this context I mean I want to make my living from my photography. I have a long way to go. I take many pictures, and am happy with few of them. I do learn from them though. I make less silly mistakes, like things sticking out of people's heads, and wonky buildings/horizons.
I saw my first published photograph today, almost half the back page of the student paper. I didn't think the pictures were wonderful when I'd taken them, but it was a grey miserable morning, and they served the purpose for which they were taken.
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You are correct in what you say, you start, learn, practice and with time will most likely acheive a level of proficiency,
but you don't start as a photographer.
 
Matt Charlton said:
You're just trolling now, admit it.

And yes, I'm a photographer.
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No I'm not trolling, and, you are kidding.

For all those who contributed, even though it was not worth it, many thanks for your varied and interesting opinions.
 
Great thread Tony. Really, very entertaining and illuminating.

What will be your next trick? Will i ever have reason to watch tv again?

Please tell us, please, please :clap::clap::clap:
 
Jonnyreb said:
Great thread Tony. Really, very entertaining and illuminating.

What will be your next trick? Will i ever have reason to watch tv again?

Please tell us, please, please :clap::clap::clap:
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PMSL :lol:
 
Ian T said:
I'm a professional layabout.
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i wanna be, but i'm worried collecting the paycheck might be, like, too much hassle man
 
Good thread - at least I now know if I’m a professional or not, where as before I just thought I may or may not be, this element of doubt towards or away from the primary or secondary consideration is now removed, until that is the next post, which of course may occur whilst I’m still writing this, and make the writing I have just written confusing to those who were not up to this point confused. :bang:

Clear as mud then :thinking:
.
 
sounds like everyone sits in a ring, one gets up and nervously looks around, then quietly announces; "Hi, I'm James and...and...I'm a photographer"

everyone else claps.

Surely the point of places like this isn't to worry who proclaims to be 'professional' or not but that we all learn from ourselves etc? yes, there's some shocking 'professional' photography about but regardless of the tags people use its the results that should speak for themselves, no? I think it would be apparent if they are worthy of the title or not given the evidence, similarly some photographers purely shooting for pleasure can far outshine those in it for the money (as it were). and where does the 'semi-professional' stand then? eh? murky waters indeed.
 
Oh blimey, lol...........:eek::lol:

I can understand what Tony has said in his post, and agree the same after viewing numerous sites. As for me though, I'm a mere beginner, taken photos since a youngster, (simple point and shoot), but just take pics for the fun and love of it. If they come out reasonably well, sobeit, but I have no intentions of progressing further with photography, as much as I like it, it's just a fun past-time for me. :)
 
soupdragon said:
Classic examples of which are, people with web sites calling themselves photographers where; their portrait gallery consists of people with washing lines or domestic equipment behind them as backdrops or, have obviously used the on board flash to cast attractive shadows around the sitter.
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OK, have an opinion, yes, but don't get personal.
Scouting through peoples websites looking for reasons to pick them apart isn't on.
 
An entertaining read over a cup of tea and a snack this was :popcorn:


Any person who is truly passionate about his activity, whatever it may be, will start off small-scale and often work for less than the going rate (other threads have endlessly covered this). Messrs Gates and Job started of in their spare time writing code for fellow students, Arnold Clark started off sourcing cars for friends and families, and no doubt many a pro photographer started off in a similar manner.

If we start talking commerce (which really is what i think this thread is about) then there is a buyer and a seller. Buyer beware, end off. If this is what you think people should call themselves then campaign your local MP and see if Trading Standards will support your petition.

Off to sell some more apples...... and the odd photae! :p
 
Matt Charlton said:
On a related note, my user title rocks \o/
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:thumbs: PMSL!!

hope the hamster didn't use up all his juice spinning the wheels for that one :lol:

EDIT - and Oh Dear Lord - LOVE the other one rofpmsl
 
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