Professionals.

soupdragon

soupdragon

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What is it with people these days starting a blog and then claiming to be professionals?
How much of a persons annual income must come from photography before they can call themselves pro's?
If there is one thing digital cameras have done, then it's allowed any "Joe Shmoe" to tout their tireless snapping as professional.
I find myself grinding my teeth when I see monstrous signatures across prints advertising "Fred Blogs Photography" or whatever!
 
>>How much of a persons annual income must come from photography before they can call themselves pro's?

All of it would seem reasonable to me. My profession supplies all of my income so why should a 'tog be able to claim that s/he is professional until the same is true for them?

I have to say that I agree with your sentiment; but it is not just the world of photography that suffers from the "got a website therefore I am a professional" syndrome :(

B.
 
Ha! Seems like photography is going through the same thing web design has for decades. Everyone thinks they can set themselves up as a web designer, yet many of them have the same design abilities as a retarded snail.

At least with photography, the clients often have enough of a clue to realise when it's a bad photograph. The people who put up with bad websites is quite stunning.
 
It's highly likely I'm just having a bad day but, I visited two sites where the owner was claming to be "Professional" and I was dumbstruck by the truly amateurish efforts obscured mainly by copyright marks.
I feel even more sorry for anyone stupid enough to employ these people and/or buy their work.
One place was claiming "Beautiful Original Landscape Art" but to be entirely honest I've seen "Noobies" with P&S cameras do better.
If you want to see professional landscape art, visit sites owned by the likes of Joe Cornish.
 
I'm not sure why you're allowing yourself to be rattled by this. Such people are deluding nobody but themselves... :shrug:
 
My profession supplies all of my income so why should a 'tog be able to claim that s/he is professional until the same is true for them?
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The question for me is why would you want to. I'm a working snapper and I don't recall ever using the word professional. Hmmm, that could be taken several ways. :lol:

Seriously, anyone that tags themselves as a "professional photographer", probably isn't one. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say I'm a professional plumber, professional pilot, professional doctor.... you get the picture. ;)
 
It's just what happened to TV in the 1990's. I used to be a Lighting TV camerman for 15 years and just the same happened there. Prices of 'broadcast' cameras dropped ('real' camera kits cost £50,000, almost-real cost £5,000, with operators with rates to match.....guess who got the work on all but top programs?)

Give it ten years, and the non-pros will get all the 'cheap' photography work, and they'll charge a 1/10th of what a 'real' pro will, plus give their copyright away with their photographs too, making it all but impossible for others to keep their copyrights.

*sigh*
 
brianfarrell said:
I'm not sure why you're allowing yourself to be rattled by this. Such people are deluding nobody but themselves... :shrug:
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I have never considered myself to be professional and I can prove that just by looking at my success rate (pictures taken vs pictures kept).
I just get annoyed because I take inspiration from many other good photographers but of late, have seen nothing but cringe worthy snaps on so called pro sites.

The forums are riddled with self appointed artiste's and critics who probably can't find their way out of an empty room with one door.

I'd be lying if I said this was the only site I frequent and on one of the other sites I read the likes of:

"Hi, I'm a newbie to photography and got my first DSLR last week"
"I'm shooting a wedding this weekend and wondered........."

Aaaaaaargh! DID THEY REALLY BELIEVE THE JESSOPS ASSISTANT WHEN HE SAID "YES YOU'LL GET PERFECT PICTURES FROM THIS CAMERA".
 
brianfarrell said:
I'm not sure why you're allowing yourself to be rattled by this. Such people are deluding nobody but themselves... :shrug:
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Sadly, this statement isn't true in my experience. There are lots of people will employ these self named 'professionals' because they tend to be a lot cheaper than the real pros. Weddings being a good example. There are loads of people around these forums and elsewhere who think they are competent to take on paid work because they have a DSLR and a kit lens. If the 'employers' then have a bad experience it can reflect badly on the whole profession.
 
>>The forums are riddled with self appointed artiste's and critics

That is true of the whole interweb. Everyone is an expert and unfortunately nobody can tell that you are a dog!

>>can't find their way out of an empty room with one door.

That can actually be quite hard when one is in communication with the Green Fairy! :)

>>"Hi, I'm a newbie to photography and got my first DSLR last week"

To which the response should be - go and take 3-4000 photographs, then see if any are worth printing. I now get a strike rate of about 10% good pictures in a session. Hopefully that will improve.

>>"I'm shooting a wedding this weekend and wondered........."

At this point one ought to be looking for the sanity certificate. Weddings must be the most stressful line of photography that I can think of. Would I shoot a wedding? Not on your (or my) life.

>>"YES YOU'LL GET PERFECT PICTURES FROM THIS CAMERA"

Someone somewhere has a sig. line which reads something like "you get better through experience not equipment" Perhaps Jessops could include that in their training scheme? oh, hang on, they are just box shifters not a local Camera shop!

B.
 
I don't think it says professional anywhere on my site. I don't understand what the big deal is though - these people aren't affecting you other than you "having" to read their signatures when they post. You don't "have" to click their links and visit their sites.

If people proclaim to be something they aren't they'll get found out soon enough.

Can't we all just be "photographers"? That's one of the best things about this place, doesn't matter if you have a point and shoot or a 1DMKIII, we all love taking photos and like the friendly attitude here.
 
It does have the word 'professional' on your menu. You also state that photography is a hobby and you are touting for business. So you are trying to take business from full time photographers.
 
>>Can't we all just be "photographers"?

Well then you get into the realms of what is a photographer? is anyone with a camera a photographer?

I know I don't class myself as a photographer - I am just someone who takes pictures.

It is the same as any field of work I guess - anyone can call themselves anything and caveat emptor.

B.
 
awp said:
It does have the word 'professional' on your menu. You also state that photography is a hobby and you are touting for business. So you are trying to take business from full time photographers.
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The professional link was there long before I picked up a DSLR, it was there more for technical support services. I expanded on it to include photography when I made a few tweaks last year, my bad.

Do full time photographers have exclusive rights on all things paid photographic wise?

I'm not entering into the argument - as far as I'm concerned the word "photographer" can be used by anyone with a camera.
 
It does anoy me, you often see pictures posted with copyright notices and water marks that to be quite honest nobody would want to 'steal' and it seems anyone with a 350D and a kit lens can be a weddin photographer these days!

Sadly it's the same with any job that can also be a hobby the number of people I meet who think they could do my job in IT because they've hada PC at home for years is staggering they all think they are pro's because they know where to find the defrag tool. I describe myself as an IT profesional but thats because it's my sole source of income I'm qualified to do what I do and I'm a member of a professional body.
 
Just looking at my menu actually - I was talking about the services button.

The CV/Professional button was for my CV and my CV alone - again nothing to do with photography.

There was an edited copy of my CV there until a few weeks ago. The only reference to photography was in the hobbies. Its purely a technical CV to go with the 8 years of experience I have working in IT.
 
Matt Charlton said:
Can't we all just be "photographers"?
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No, I don't think we can!

I have borne witness to the difference between people taking pictures and photographers taking pictures.

I'll go back to my original comments where I casually threw in the name Joe Cornish.
Compare his work to that of someone who was carrying a camera whilst walking along the coast and you'll see what I mean!
 
Well I have a 350d and kit lens (til I get my nifty fifty in March.. or maybe the 17-85) and I have taken pics at a few weddings, and will be doing so again this year.
Surely it's more about the pictures than the kit??
 
Matt Charlton said:
The only reference to photography was in the hobbies.
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...but you are asking people to give you assignments.

PHOTOGRAPHER - Someone who takes photographs, especially as a profession. It could be said that a good photographer is a combination of an artist, craftsman and scientist, since knowledge and skills from all three professions play a part in good photography.
 
a1ex2001 said:
It does anoy me, you often see pictures posted with copyright notices and water marks that to be quite honest nobody would want to 'steal' and it seems anyone with a 350D and a kit lens can be a weddin photographer these days!
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I could not have put it better myself.
Sadly, unless they are "accidentally talented" they are doing neither themselves or their clients (or us hobbyists for that matter) any favours.
 
I think anyone can be a photographer, and that's what good about places like this. I consider a member no better if they earn 100000's from photography with a 1D, than if they take really good pictures with a 350D and the kit lens.

I do agree with the OP's sentiment. Not about having it in their signature or on their website, that's not the point.
The problem I have is the scenario that someone just picks up a camera, then the week after is doing a paid wedding shoot.
The same happened in the PC industry. I've been with computing since I was a very small boy in the lat 70's early 80's. I was one of those very few geeky kids at school who enjoyed computing. When I left school, I went to college to do a BTEC in Computing, after college, Uni to do a degree.
Then boom. The world and his wife suddenly learnt how to plug a P200 in and were declaring themselves computer repaires, system builders and experts, and the market just got saturated. Too many people jumping on the bandwagon.

Thats not to say its a snobbish attitude of "My talent, I want to be special", it's just that I think we should learn the basics and get some experience before we call ourselves "Professional" and take on paid commissions etc.
I think awp words it better. Yes, someone who has no idea of what theyre doing will be 'outed' I suppose, but for someone to pick up a DSLR for the first time and class themselves as 'professionals' does undermine the whole industry to an extent.
 
awp said:
...but you are asking people to give you assignments.

PHOTOGRAPHER - Someone who takes photographs, especially as a profession. It could be said that a good photographer is a combination of an artist, craftsman and scientist, since knowledge and skills from all three professions play a part in good photography.
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The information is there that I'll be willing to listen to a proposal, not to necessarily take on.

I don't consider myself a professional photographer - I do consider myself an amateur photographer.

The description you've posted there states "especially as a profession" not "exclusively". I do employ artistic skills when I frame a shot, craftsmen when I manipulate it in photoshop and scientist from knowing about the light, exposure and shutter speeds.
 
See it's threads like this that sometimes I get a bit disheartened. Just because people don't have the most expensive cameras does not mean they're not talented photographers.
Can't say I think of myself as "professional" though, I enjoy my photography too much to think of it in job terms, even though I get paid for it.
 
Nooo I don't think thats what he's saying Chicca.......

It's not those that have a passion for photography. It's the ones that pick up a camera and call themselves a professional, without even a thought to the consequences of what that brings.

I don't think anyone cares what we take a picture with (I know I certainly don't) :)
 
soupdragon said:
I find myself grinding my teeth when I see monstrous signatures across prints advertising "Fred Blogs Photography" or whatever!
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Saying that though, I have that in my signature (Or at least I did...lol).

It's me, that's my name, thats my photography.

I'm a photographer. I take photographs, and I enjoy taking photographs, therefore I am a photographer. Plain and simple.

I am amateur, yes, but I am a photographer, therefor I will call myself one.
 
The term 'profession' implies to me at least that whoever earns a high proportion of their income from photography.

However, profession does not necessarily equate to artistic talent. There are many professionals churning out distinctly amateur grade work, and many amateurs who have the photographic skills to class themselves as professional if they were prepared to jack in their day job. However, they are skilled in marketing themselves and the business side of being a professional photographer.

Now, using the term 'working to professional standards' or something along those lines could be used by an amateur supplementing their income who cannot or doesn't want to make the leap into full time photography.
 
agree.

...and yes, agree 100%, it is not the equipment it's the image - and the attitude.
 
For me, it took me ages to be able to say to people "I am a photographer", I used to prefer to skirt the issue by using phrases like "I dabble in photography" or "I enjoy taking photographs".

I didn't feel good enough to be able to say "I'm a photographer" until I realised, what the hell was I worried about? I take photos! Im a photographer!

However, no way would I call myself a professional photographer. I think to callyourself a professional, you need to be taking on paid gigs, which I don't do.
I've done things that *could* be paid for friends and family, but I refuse payment, and do it for the experience, which they are fully understanding of.

I did do some paid work a couple of years ago with my G3. I took some photos for a friends business, and she paid me...Does that make me a professional? Nope. It makes me an amateur who got paid.

The one thing that does make me cringe about the 'I've just picked a camera up, and I'm now a professional' brigade, is the prenetiousness that often accompanies it.
I've found that in this situation, the person will be taking snapshots of things without even giving the photo a second thought, and accompanying it with pretentious arty titles.
For example a bland photo of something like a shoe and giving it the title "In the face of adversity".

(God help me if someone actually did that...lol)
 
:agree: with awp

It doesn't matter what the equipment is, its what the end result is.

Attitude is paramount and I hope that I didn't come across as being arrogant or brash - I was just trying to put across the point that people should be allowed to call themselves photographers :(
 
ConfusedChicca said:
See it's threads like this that sometimes I get a bit disheartened. Just because people don't have the most expensive cameras does not mean they're not talented photographers.
Can't say I think of myself as "professional" though, I enjoy my photography too much to think of it in job terms, even though I get paid for it.
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Fortunately talent has nothing to do with earnings or equipment if that were the case Van Gogh would not be classed as a genius as he only sold one picture while he was alive and often re-used old canvases as he couldn't afford new. A 1Ds MKIII will not give you talent or the right to call yourself a pro it's more likely to give you back ache and a headache if you don't know what your doing!
 
At the risk of being flamed untill the cowes come home, I really do think you all need to take a long look at this thread and wonder... Why on earth do I care so much about what others do? If someone wants to call themself a professional, let them! They'll get found out soon enough, and the stupid clients that hire them will soon learn.

As for amatures taking business away from professionals, that's a load of old tosh. If someone wants to hire an amature, let them! Perhaps the client isn't loaded enough to hire most pro's if they charge too much. And as said, no one has exclusive rights to take photos, so get over it.

If people go round looking at other peoples' web sites and they have crap images on them, perhaps just move on? If they take crap photos, then instead of getting miffed about it, go take some better ones yourself if you think you can and be happy with knowing you are better than them. If they want to call themselfs pros for what ever reason, let them, because it really doesn't matter. Yes they might be talking a load of rubbish, and yes I kinda see where the OP is coming from, but ultimatly, who really gives a turd! Better things to worry about surely?


Aaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnndddddddd......... Let the flaming begin :D
 
That ^^ is hitting the nail on the head. I've had this rant before, because it can apply to many fields (DJing, in my case). You are a professional if you do something to a standard to allow it to be your primary source of income, and earn enough to live on, ie. it is your 'profession'. Someone being a professional is by no means a guaranteed indication of quality.

That said, I see no problem with amateurs touting for business. Punters, if they have an ounce of intelligence, will do their research and decide whether they want to pay a lot for a professional, or a small amount for an amateur. Someone mentioned websites... I've been paid for a couple of websites, many years ago now. I built simple, clean, functioning websites for half the price of a 'professional'. Is that bad? I don't think so.

Edit: Damn right, Woodsy
 
I suppose it all depends on how pretencious(sp) you feel like being on a given day. After all, I could declare myself a professional student. Not. Its a word, people throw descriptors like that in to make themselves feel important.
A client can obviously make out crap photos from superb photos, although if you're follwing me, I believe Monet painted drunk with a brush far too big for his project.
On that note its all about interpretation.

I want to be a pilot - I am attending university to help me get closer. I'll call myself a pilot when I have a JAR ATPL.

I want to be a photographer - I'm carrying my camera around with me like a newborn. I'll call myself a photographer when I'm taking regular photographer. I'll never be a professional no matter how good my images are.
 
I think of it in these terms - the more "professional" you are the less time you spend holding a camera. Honestly, it makes sense. As you climb the ladder the jobs get bigger and take longer to plan until it gets the point where a single job takes months of planning for maybe a few minutes shooting. So the really top pros don't take any pictures at all :lol:
 
Woodsy said:
At the risk of being flamed untill the cowes come home, I really do think you all need to take a long look at this thread and wonder... Why on earth do I care so much about what others do? If someone wants to call themself a professional, let them! They'll get found out soon enough, and the stupid clients that hire them will soon learn.

As for amatures taking business away from professionals, that's a load of old tosh. If someone wants to hire an amature, let them! Perhaps the client isn't loaded enough to hire most pro's if they charge too much. And as said, no one has exclusive rights to take photos, so get over it.

If people go round looking at other peoples' web sites and they have crap images on them, perhaps just move on? If they take crap photos, then instead of getting miffed about it, go take some better ones yourself if you think you can and be happy with knowing you are better than them. If they want to call themselfs pros for what ever reason, let them, because it really doesn't matter. Yes they might be talking a load of rubbish, and yes I kinda see where the OP is coming from, but ultimatly, who really gives a turd! Better things to worry about surely?


Aaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnndddddddd......... Let the flaming begin :D
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A fairly long response from someone who has "Better things to worry about."
 
To be honest I can see both sides of the coin, but I can really understand why it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth of the guy who is putting food on the table through his photography.

In my industry (Nails) a huge proportion of people train to very high standards through college and respected product companies to be able to call themselves nail technicians, to get insurance and practice their skills on the paying public.

In the last couple of years weve seen a huge increase in what we term Non Standard Salons setting up. Products that are banned in other countries (except good ole UK) are rife, because they are cheap, most these people are self taught, using drills for speed... even on natural nails. Theyve brought the cost of a set of nails right down to peanuts, and so its becoming increasingly difficult to make a living as a nail technician.
The reputation of our industry is in tatters as everyone believes that acrylic nails should be as hard as rocks with and worn at the cost of damaged nails, thanks to NSS.

If it seems Im raving over something entriely different then its because you havent lost your income to ameteurs who enjoys calling themselves 'professional'.
 
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