Private Security ordering deletion of images

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Weggy

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Yes
Not me thankfully, but saw a young lady this morning had been stopped by security here in Canary Wharf. I slowed down and heard the security guard was telling her to delete all her images. Can they do this? It was a camcorder and she had a tripod too. She wasnt in the way of people as she was right to the side, next to a hedge.

I know Canary Wharf is a private estate but obviously hundreds of people, if not thousands, come through the estate daily.
 
No they can't. All they can do is ask her to leave the premises.
 
They can tell you to delete them, but they can't make you. Forget the social pressure of being pleasant to people. Turn, and walk away, and don't look back.
 
Here we go again........
Appreciate that these guys have a job to do, and given that it's private property you should call ahead first to obtain permission to shoot etc. BUT there really has to be some clarification from above as to what these security firms and the police can or can't force you to do. If the Police are unsure as to the Law, what chance have the Private firms got? The latest Met Police anti terror campaign obviously doesn't help especially as we're all odd looking and carry cameras.

I used to be as accomodating (sp?) as possible when stopped but the more of these reports I see, the more I'm inclined to dig my heels in and not play ball......
 
I didnt think they could force her to delete, but everyone in the office disagreed! I know what I'd do and that would have been to walk away... she was right near the tube station, so that's where I would have gone!

As for me, I do ask permission first and as I work here I get a permit without any issues. However, I doubt the young girl knew that...
 
If it is a private estate then they can have a no photography rule. How they handle anyone breaking that rule is down to what is contained in their rules concering your entry.
Assault can happen when someone apprehends the use of unlawful force against them. Again it is a question of lawful force, if the rules state that equipment can be confiscated then she may have been treated correctly in being told to delete as opposed to confiscation of her equipment.

Looks like she's not the only one either.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=256164

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1522

I tried to find any published rules for photography at Canary Wharf and they are certainly not easy to find, perhaps if they were easier to work with there would be less of a problem, or is that being to blooming sensible?
 
AliB said:
I tried to find any published rules for photography at Canary Wharf and they are certainly not easy to find, perhaps if they were easier to work with there would be less of a problem, or is that being to blooming sensible?
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that's exactly why they have these issues. If there were signs up on entry to the estate (be that by road, the tube or DLR) then it wouldnt be a problem!
 
A while ago, I remember seeing the members of FredMiranda.com sharing a document file that could be printed out and folded into a wallet carry-on. Basically, the little document listed all the rights of a photographer -- you could either use this for your own consultation or to flash to others as 'proof' of your rights.

Unfortunately, this was a US thing and made reference to US Laws, but I remember people asking for similar cards for use in Canada and the UK. Do any of you know if there was ever such thing made for the British?
 
Doesn't matter. They can stipulate any conditions of entry, definitely.
However, they cannot stipulate what they are allowed to do once you break those conditions.

One of the conditions of entry onto the property, may be that you do not take any photographs. Once you breach that condition, then you are effectively trespassing. That is all (Im talking in a simple situation with no other factors).

They can't attach any conditions giving them carte blance to do what they like upon you trespassing. They still have to adhere to the law.

They can't force her to delete images, or confiscate her equipment.
 
Theo Moore said:
A while ago, I remember seeing the members of FredMiranda.com sharing a document file that could be printed out and folded into a wallet carry-on. Basically, the little document listed all the rights of a photographer -- you could either use this for your own consultation or to flash to others as 'proof' of your rights.

Unfortunately, this was a US thing and made reference to US Laws, but I remember people asking for similar cards for use in Canada and the UK. Do any of you know if there was ever such thing made for the British?
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www.sirimo.co.uk :)
Tis on there, the Photographers Rights PDF.
 
to be made to delete pictures from the card needs a court order, even the police need a court order.
 
Thanks Marcel and hotchef23. I didn't know that they could not make you delete. Very helpful.
 
I think I would politely, but forcefully, let them know that forcing me to delet the images counts as assault in the eyes of the law and then ask if they minded me calling the police to witness the assault for prosecution purposes. Of course I would also explain the alternative is for me to leave quietly and be on my way images in tact.

Pete
 
They cannot make you delete your images you have already taken, Or why not just take another SD Card and quickly change it over out of with when you see them coming? :P

Tony
 
icecavern said:
I think I would politely, but forcefully, let them know that forcing me to delet the images counts as assault in the eyes of the law and then ask if they minded me calling the police to witness the assault for prosecution purposes. Of course I would also explain the alternative is for me to leave quietly and be on my way images in tact.

Pete
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:agree: This would be my course of action too. :)
 
anyone who has never held a DSLR won't have the first idea how to check that the images have been deleted or how to delete the images themselves IF they managed to get their hands on the camera.

my answer, depending on their attitude would probably sway from 'up yours mister' to 'there you go squire, all deleted' to a guard thats being friendly. I wouldn't actually delete them though. ;)
 
I've worked in Canary Wharf, and I have had many customers there, and for the life of me, I cannot ever remember seeing a notice that says "no photography".

In which case, I'd quite happily say "thank you for informing me", and walk away. At which point they would have to use physical assault to make me do anything else.

The "no photography" policies need to be displayed, or how are people meant to know :shrug:

Steve
 
I had this issue on Sunday - I was after structure photo's for the comp so was taking pics of the Renault building in Swindon
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Security guard ran up, told me I couldn't be there, couldn't take pics and I had to delete them. I did question this as part of the building is rented out to the local Ford dealers and I was parked 10 yards from them.

"How about I just park down at the Ford dealers then?"

Not a happy guard, but I refused to delete the pics and left.
 
Sorry but I'm not deleting any of my pics for anyone, I'll go to jail first, and if a security guard wants to use minimum force then he better have a good lawyer :-)
 
Everyone that says they would "pretend" to delete them etc is missing the point. Nobody ( short of a courts decision which is hardly likely to order it ) is legally allowed to force you to delete, or themselves delete any of your images. By not sticking to your rights you are actually making the situation worse by giving the impression that you can be forced to do it.

If I was doing some street photography, and someone asked me politely to delete a photo of them, I'd be inclided to do it, but if anyone gets shirty because I'm taking pics anywhere, security, public, police, I'll be standing my ground and riding the publicity :D

Pete
 
icecavern said:
Everyone that says they would "pretend" to delete them etc is missing the point. Nobody ( short of a courts decision which is hardly likely to order it ) is legally allowed to force you to delete, or themselves delete any of your images. By not sticking to your rights you are actually making the situation worse by giving the impression that you can be forced to do it.
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Which is exactly what the girl yesterday did... If only I'd known the law better I would of stopped and backed her up.

Still, I know now and am very tempted to bring tripod and camera in tomorrow and have a session around the estate!
 
Weggy said:
Still, I know now and am very tempted to bring tripod and camera in tomorrow and have a session around the estate!
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If you want to be really conspicuous, I have some ideas... ;)
 
Yes, very good point. Never 'pretend' to delete photos. Stand up for rights. Nobody else is going to.
 
just to add some balance to this thread I was was out taking pics near my flat yesterday and there are some of those big round things that hold gas. was trying to get some images of the patterns while stood just outside the gate (which was open). when i was a member of staff walking towards me. At this point i though oh **** im in trouble. He walked up to me said "i hope you got its good side" and walked off.
 
I agree, don't delete, pretending to just makes them think they can. However.....if i was in a messing about mood i might tell them it is a film camera and i will cut them up when i get them back from the chemist.
 
All I have done is call the management company for the Wharf and asked for writen permission..

The manager inofrmed me that this was not required and to just visit the site with a copy of the email he sent me as proof that permission has been granted.

Arrange a TP meet I will turn up with email it will be a giggle..


Nigel
 
mattyh said:
I believe it's classed as assault believe it or not)
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An assault doesn't have to be a physical attack, it can be by way of words alone. There is case law to show that insulting words are not an assault. There has to be an intent to cause the victim to "apprehend immediate and unlawful violence".

Telling you to delete images won't be enough, threatening to take the camera by force and smash it if you won't delete might be enough.
 
Just turn, say "goodbye" and walk away.
 
havent ben stopped recently.
last time was taking a shot of a badly parked car at a site i was delivering to in the lorry.
security numpty asked me why i was taking a photo of HIS CAR?
i replied so i could report it to the management for appaling parking, on a box junction , in the entrance to an industrial estate.
he walked away.
strangely , it had moved when i came out again.
he was in his cabin looking down at the desk as i passed him.:)
 
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