Printing black and white with a consumer Canon printer...

ChrisR

ChrisR

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Hi, I'm taking almost exclusively black and white photos currently, on 35mm film (lovely pro grade cameras and lenses at point and shoot prices!). I've got a Canon MG5250 5-ink consumer grade printer. I've had some success with Kodak Glossy Premium Plus paper using the Photo Paper Plus Glossy II media type (presumably profile?) that comes with the MG5250 driver on my Mac. There's sometimes a bit of colour creeping in, but it can be quite good.

I thought I'd have a go with some lustre paper, and bought a pack of Harman Crystaljet Elite Luster. There isn't a corresponding media type so I picked Photo Paper Plus Semi Gloss. Other options included Photo Paper Pro Platinum, Glossy Photo Paper, Matter Photo Paper, High Resolution Paper, four types of Hagaki, various T-shirts and discs, and Other Photo Paper. The result is very warm! There's a distinct browny-reddish tint to the greys. It's a bit better as it dries, and the effect can be less pronounced in some light. It's not entirely unpleasant, but not what I'm after. However, I do like the luster paper, and would like to be bale to print a bit blacker on it.

My aim in printing is for personal pleasure, but also often to compare candidate shots for various challenges I enter to improve my photography.

Can you advise me on how to get better black and white prints with this printer? Thanks
 
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Thanks @Box Brownie , that's a couple of useful links. I might have a go at the process in the first one, though I'd have to work out how to save a curve adjustment in Aperture first! I couldn't quite work out if you absolutely have to be able to do a print with black only for his process to work; sadly the Canon won't allow me to do that.

"Sufficiently high quality" is of course a variable quantity, my standards are almost certainly much lower than yours. I'd be pretty happy if I got most of the colour shift out of my black and white prints. For high quality I'd send it off elsewhere, but I can't afford (the money or time for) that for test and comparison prints.
 
I haven't tried profiles for the paper; I couldn't find them for the Kodak, and I've only used the two sheets of Harman so far. The MG5250 has 5 inks: CMYK and a pigment black. I know it's not the best printer, but it's what I've got and I just want to get the best from it I can. I sometimes have access to a Canon MG6350, which has an additional grey ink; the one shot I printed on that came out quite well.
 
I've just printed the shot referred to in the last post on the MG6350 (6 inks including one grey). Came out of the printer with a noticeable colour cast; I'll try to compare it with the other printer's results when it's dry.
 
ChrisR said:
I've just printed the shot referred to in the last post on the MG6350 (6 inks including one grey). Came out of the printer with a noticeable colour cast; I'll try to compare it with the other printer's results when it's dry.
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You aren't going to get a good result using non manufacturer paper without having the profiles. The issue is that you're probably not going to find downloadable profiles for this kind of printer as they're usually made for common professional grade printers. The option option is to profile yourself.

Another point worth making is that some printers have a "black and white photo" option. Try selection to the print preview option in properties then when the preview window opens see if you can find such a setting. This should eliminate a good proportion of casting.
 
Thanks @connersz . I'm aware (now) that I'm on a hiding to nothing in terms of getting quality results in black and white with these printers. My aim is to get a reasonable result for comparison purposes, then send off for a pro result. I bought the 6350 some time ago, thinking the extra (grey) ink cartridge would give a better result; not true so far.

I've explored the printer driver settings fairly thoroughly, and will have another look again for a "black and white photo" option, but I don't remember seeing one. There is a "grayscale printing" option which I have usually checked. Not sure whether this helps or not.
 
connersz said:
You aren't going to get a good result using non manufacturer paper without having the profiles. The issue is that you're probably not going to find downloadable profiles for this kind of printer as they're usually made for common professional grade printers. The option option is to profile yourself.
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I realised I had a couple of test 6*4 packs of Canon Photo Glossy II, and printed a test image last night using the best settings I could manage, and the appropriate canned profile that comes with the driver. I was quite hopeful when I took it off the printer. Sadly, overnight it has dried with a significant colour cast, yellow this time. Not sure this shows it as strongly as it appears in real life:

 
ChrisR said:
I realised I had a couple of test 6*4 packs of Canon Photo Glossy II, and printed a test image last night using the best settings I could manage, and the appropriate canned profile that comes with the driver. I was quite hopeful when I took it off the printer. Sadly, overnight it has dried with a significant colour cast, yellow this time. Not sure this shows it as strongly as it appears in real life:

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To tell the truth I tried the Canon paper when starting out and found they came out with a red cast. The problems went when I started using other paper but I can't recommend profiling the paper enough.
 
connersz said:
To tell the truth I tried the Canon paper when starting out and found they came out with a red cast. The problems went when I started using other paper but I can't recommend profiling the paper enough.
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My understanding of this is pretty weak, as you can see, but a source I've just been reading seemed to suggest that profiles made most difference when colours involved are out of the colour space involved ("out of gamut"?). So does this still apply for printing black and white?

I've been trying to follow the Northlight pseudo b&w profiling mentioned in post 2 above, without a great deal of success so far. I'll write more on that later.
 
This may be a complete non-starter but years ago when I first tried printing black and white on an inkjet, the results were terrible with colour casts. My solution was to change to a printer that could handle black and white, but before I did, I found that the best black and white prints were produced on standard photocopier paper. I know that this is a far cry from the type of paper you've been trying, and that there can be problems with over inking; but you might like to try it and see how it goes.

What works with a Lexmark may not work with a Canon of course.
 
StephenM said:
This may be a complete non-starter but years ago when I first tried printing black and white on an inkjet, the results were terrible with colour casts. My solution was to change to a printer that could handle black and white, but before I did, I found that the best black and white prints were produced on standard photocopier paper. I know that this is a far cry from the type of paper you've been trying, and that there can be problems with over inking; but you might like to try it and see how it goes.

What works with a Lexmark may not work with a Canon of course.
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Since I was printing a pic just now I tried that. But first I had two prints that accidentally got printed 4*5 on A4 paper. Both were printed with the nearest profile I could get from the small list of photo papers that Canon present, and with the greyscale printing box checked in the printer driver. When I finally worked out how to get my 4*5 ratio image printed as large as it would go on the A4 paper, I decided to print that with the greyscale box unchecked. The two with the greyscale box checked are considerably warmer than the one without. I guess this might change a bit overnight as it outgasses.

So then I tried the same image on plain paper, using an uncoated paper profile. The result did surprise me. I do think it is more neutral (again I'll check again tomorrow), although I don't really like the look of the image as much (and hate how it handles, or doesn't!). Interesting, I clearly need to explore further. The trouble is, paper is really expensive!
 
It seems a bit quirky that you're paying a small fortune for nice paper then throwing it through a poor printer. You're better off biting the bullet and investing in a decent pigment ink printer if you want to print at a decent enough quality to display, even if the display is 'only' for yourself. It's just about impossible to judge composition and lighting from your print if it's poor quality.
I buy A3 or A3+ paper and at anywhere from £40-£60 a pack of 25 it's a false economy if I'm wasting 5 or 6 sheets trying to sort out the settings for a B&W print, because I can guarantee that as soon as you want a colour one there's another half a dozen sheets wasted.
Speak to your local camera clubs, there is usually someone looking to sell an 'old' priner because they've upgraded and as long as the print heads are still ok and the ink is available these can be a cracking bargain. And in the mid to long term it'll save you money instead of burning through expensive inkjet paper just to get one good print.
I nearly cried because I wasted a sheet of Canson Baryta Photographique because the print profile provided by Canson wasn't any good and it failed to print deep blacks....and that was just one sheet!!! But then I am a tight git ;-)
 
Thanks Kev. I'm only printing A4 at the moment and have no space to display anything bigger. I can't find an A4 printer so far that will use better technology like ABW for example. I did buy the MG6350 (6 inks, one of which is grey) expecting it would be better, but I haven't had much of a chance to get used to it yet. The bigger printers are much more expensive, and TBH I could waste an awful lot of paper before making that investment up! Most of my paper has not been expensive; 25-sheet packs of Kodak's best glossy A4 that I got in a WHS sale at about the quarter their normal price. I just bought one pack of a better paper online, also in a sale. What did upset me recently was wasting 2 (TWO!) sheets because I got the wrong settings and printed 4" by 5" on my A4, TWICE! It's a bit of a steep learning curve, printing, particularly black and white (I've been pretty pleased with many of my colour results so far).
 
The trouble with A4 printers is that they are generally aimed at a different market to photographers and printing photo quality off your iphone is somewhat different to a DSLR!!
I had a HP printer for years that did photo printing but after 12-18 months the prints have faded and you can't get the profiles for the nice paper (and by default anything that WHS knock out is at the lower end of inkjet paper). It did proper photo prints but there's always that knowledge that the prints will start fading and for really nice b&w fine art work you struggle to get the quality you want. To get really good prints that will last years before fading then you need to invest in an A3+ pigment printer. Epson and Canon are the default and their inks are better than the stuff you get for A4 printers because they are aimed at professional photographers or artists and this market demands quality.
I've spent a small fortune over the years on my camera kit and invested many an early start to get the shots I'm after and travelled miles to get them, so why waste all that time and considerable effort by using a printer that's not up to the job?
No-one sees the great b&w on the computer but they do see the print. It's the culmination of all that effort, all that time and expertise so I like to try and do it justice if I print! And I don't care if no-one other than me sees it, when I look at my print I want to see my photo as good as I can get it.

And try satin or satin matte paper for b&w, I think you get a better print without the shiny surface of gloss prints :-) and once you go big on your prints you start having to find wall space because you want everything big!! I've had to downsize to A3 because I've run out of walls to hang 12x18's ;-) But god they make a statement when mounted!!!
 
Chris, You're all over the place

A number of printers, a number of papers. and then upset because you lose two sheets of A4 photo paper. Why am I not surprised.

You don't need to buy a ridiculously priced printer or one with pigment inks, or silly priced papers. You just need to understand and match the sundries with the printer and stick with what works.
 
dcash29 said:
Chris, You're all over the place

A number of printers, a number of papers. and then upset because you lose two sheets of A4 photo paper. Why am I not surprised.

You don't need to buy a ridiculously priced printer or one with pigment inks, or silly priced papers. You just need to understand and match the sundries with the printer and stick with what works.
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Yup, you're right! Learning is what this thread was always all about!

Oh btw I wasn't that upset about wasting a couple of sheets, at least not about the first one. Second one was a silly error and I do get upset (with myself) about that. And there's so much contrary advice around. I was hoping folk might be able to point me in a direction to get better black and white prints from a printer that gives me pretty reasonable colour prints.

I'm beginning to understand better how black and white printing works, and why printing black and white on a printer with one pigment black and one ordinary black (sorry, forgot the type) but no lighter blacks or greys will always probably give colour casts. That's useful, as it helps me deal with the compromises I'm making (sometimes, as should be clear, without knowing).

Anyway, I'll keep experimenting, and if I make any improvements I'll let y'all know. And if any TPers have ideas that might help, I'll be grateful. Thanks, folks.
 
ChrisR said:
I'm beginning to understand better how black and white printing works, and why printing black and white on a printer with one pigment black and one ordinary black (sorry, forgot the type) but no lighter blacks or greys will always probably give colour casts.
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Because the printer uses the pigment black for text only and the photo black along side the other colours for photos regardless of the output desired. You need to look for a reasonably priced nano porous paper, something like Fuji, Jessops or Black Diamond.
Stick to it and have a profile made as suggested previously.
It will never be perfect but from experience I'll just say don't waste you're time trying.

Dave
 
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Hmm, I've got a Canon MG5650 which is capable of decent quality prints, when it works (paper feed is a p*** poor design and generally requires doing manually). Not had any problems at all with casts on B&W printed on Canon paper, there was a slight green cast when printed on some £1 shop A4 Gloss which was TBH expected. You are using genuine ink I trust?
 
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