Practising Constructive Crit

[desantnik]

Thats very good Rob but not really saying anything about the social aspects, your shot needs a story, just like those stupid portrait prize shots.

So light the building from the flames licking from a burning cross stuck in the ground in front of the house.

Then you have social comment as well as nice light.

(tongue placed firmly in cheek before anyone gets their panties in a twist)

 

[Byker28i]

Sometimes people discuss the image, or offer an opinion, because they are trying to learn. So they offer what they think is their view of the image to add to the discussion and in doing so can often learn or have things pointed out they haven't realised.

Ed's crit is excellant, but I bet that took him sometime to write and in this busy society most are usually grabbing some forum time during the working day, or evening downtime, so perhaps haven't the time for a fully comprehensive review, so pick on the few items that they can quickly comment on.

As for the picture, I've seen much worse in photography exhibitions but they are usually accompanied with 2000 words describing why it's such an important image, the frame of mind of the photographer at the time and how it's relevant in todays modern society etc

 

[joescrivens]

As it stands, it's a fairly ok but boring photo of an ok but boring building.

Go back and re-shoot, but this time do it at a different time of day to capitalise on the more dramatic lighting that early morning or late afternoon offers - late afternoon would be better.

Nothing wrong with that comment. Blunt and to the point without being rude and also a suggestion on how to improve. Anyone getting offended about a statement like this is in the wrong not the person doing the crit.

 

[Wail]

I think for me to give good feedback I'd need to know a bit more, and better, about the photographer.

Let me take two examples, if I may.

Scenario 1

If this picture was shown to me by my wife, having taken it herself, I'd simply ask if she'd suffer from "temporary blindness" (no offence to anyone blind); but a blind person may have been able to get something better by just waiting for a different time of day. It would be rude of her to waste my time by looking at something so rubbish, and rude of her to perform this badly with her camera given that I've been teaching her for 6 years and seen some of her outstanding results. So, for me to tell her to f-off and stop insulting me with such rubbish is not rude.


Scenario 2

If this was taken by my eldest son who has no interest in photography, never cares about shooting anything; then I'd simply ask him what's so important about the house that provoked his interest to shoot it. Based on his feedback, I'd give him some constructive input on the picture and may be something on the house too.



So, how do we critique others on a forum of this nature? It's hard; and to want us all to be sterile and polite is unfair, perfect it would be .. but unfair, as sometimes posting these shots is an insult to the viewer, more so when we know the OP has much better capabilities and in such a case the rubbish posted is an insult to the OP's capabilities and to the viewer.

My point is, to give constructive critique, the person doing the critique needs to know a bit more about the OP so as to qualify the critique with a certain ability and expectation.

Generally speaking, on a photography forum of this type, someone who's gone out of their way to spend some good money on a camera kit, it ought to be expected that the very little basics about composition and exposure should be self-taught; and if that person can't see the faults themselves then they're going to need a kick in the rear-end to motivate them and stop them from posting such rubbish.

In such a case, I'd suffice to say that your picture must have been taken while you were sneezing (eyes closed, your mind concentrating on protecting your eyeballs from falling out of their sockets and fingers going weird on you in that split second that you pressed the shutter release).

 

[joescrivens]

I think for me to give good feedback I'd need to know a bit more, and better, about the photographer.

Let me take two examples, if I may.

Scenario 1

If this picture was shown to me by my wife, having taken it herself, I'd simply ask if she'd suffer from "temporary blindness" (no offence to anyone blind); but a blind person may have been able to get something better by just waiting for a different time of day. It would be rude of her to waste my time by looking at something so rubbish, and rude of her to perform this badly with her camera given that I've been teaching her for 6 years and seen some of her outstanding results. So, for me to tell her to f-off and stop insulting me with such rubbish is not rude.

You can't use this technique here, your wife is someone who knows you, and you know her so you can speak frankly with people like this and you will know the effect. If I ever told my wife to f off no matter what the context, she'd slap me in the face. Yours maybe different and thats for you to know

So, how do we critique others on a forum of this nature? It's hard; and to want us all to be sterile and polite is unfair, perfect it would be .. but unfair, as sometimes posting these shots is an insult to the viewer, more so when we know the OP has much better capabilities and in such a case the rubbish posted is an insult to the OP's capabilities and to the viewer.

I disagree, there is nothing unfair about being polite. It costs nothing

Generally speaking, on a photography forum of this type, someone who's gone out of their way to spend some good money on a camera kit, it ought to be expected that the very little basics about composition and exposure should be self-taught; and if that person can't see the faults themselves then they're going to need a kick in the rear-end to motivate them and stop them from posting such rubbish.

There are plenty of people here who haven't spent money on kit, they are starting out with the basics, or the kit has been bought and the stuff you mention above is exactly why they are here. To learn.

Your comments about posting poor photos being an insult to the viewer is over the top. Someone's photo might not meet your cup of tea but it isn't an insult that you clicked on it and looked. If this is really how you think then you should probably stick to only clicking on posts from people who you know you will not be insulted from their efforts.

In such a case, I'd suffice to say that your picture must have been taken while you were sneezing (eyes closed, your mind concentrating on protecting your eyeballs from falling out of their sockets and fingers going weird on you in that split second that you pressed the shutter release).

Poor example of crit. You haven't said why you didn't like it and you haven't suggested any ways to improve. You've also posted a rude comment (albeit amusing in this thread, probably not if it were a real photo posted for crit though)

 

[EdBray]

It's funny you should say that, there is some absolute ***** posted on this 1DsMk3 thread.

Just goes to show really it's not the quality of the equipment that matters but the few inches behind the camera.

 

[Wail]

You can't use this technique here, your wife is someone who knows you, and you know her so you can speak frankly with people like this and you will know the effect. If I ever told my wife to f off no matter what the context, she'd slap me in the face. Yours maybe different and thats for you to know



I disagree, there is nothing unfair about being polite. It costs nothing



There are plenty of people here who haven't spent money on kit, they are starting out with the basics, or the kit has been bought and the stuff you mention above is exactly why they are here. To learn.

Your comments about posting poor photos being an insult to the viewer is over the top. Someone's photo might not meet your cup of tea but it isn't an insult that you clicked on it and looked. If this is really how you think then you should probably stick to only clicking on posts from people who you know you will not be insulted from their efforts.



Poor example of crit. You haven't said why you didn't like it and you haven't suggested any ways to improve. You've also posted a rude comment (albeit amusing in this thread, probably not if it were a real photo posted for crit though)

I am most impressed by your tactfulness, I seriously am , and for the time you're taking on this matter.

 

[Wail]

It's funny you should say that, there is some absolute ***** posted on this 1DsMk3 thread.

Just goes to show really it's not the quality of the equipment that matters but the few inches behind the camera.

It is never about the equipment, never.

Not very long ago there was a thread here, in TP Glamour and Nude, where the OP used an iPhone for his work. It blew my mind how he could get such outstanding results from a smartphone.

 

[legarm]

Fantastic shot. I love they way you have captured the power lines!! lol

 

[tirc83]

Shooting into the light has caused problems with loss of detail in the shadows and the wide angle chosen has led to some distortion of the verticals.

Both these problems can be addressed (somewhat) in post processing.

The verticals can be corrected to a more acceptable level using Photoshop's Transform -> Perspective feature.

The shadows are best dealt with beforehand by shooting a bracketed series of shots and blending them with HDR software. It is also possible to do this with just the one exposure but for best results you should work on the original raw file (and not the reduced sized jpeg as I have). Then depending how much you 'love' the image, you could spend time cloning out the unsightly wires.

Anyway, this is just to illustrate what can be done and is not in any way presented as the finished article.

 

[joescrivens]

great example of crit

 

[POAH]

its a snap shot nothing more - sure you could get more perpindicular to the subject but other than that.

and what makes you so high and mighty that you can crit the crit

Ok, so it seems some people can't see the difference between a rude piece of crit and a constructive one. So let's have a little practice for those people who struggle to see the difference. Below is a photograph that certainly could do with improvement.

Take a look at it and give us your attempt at crit and i'll advise you whether it was constructive or not and advise you how to adapt it

 

[joescrivens]

its a snap shot nothing more - sure you could get more perpindicular to the subject but other than that.

i'd say this is borderline.

you haven't said at all why it's a snap shot to you. No comment on what makes it poor in your opinion.

You did add a suggestion on how to improve the verticals but the rest of that sentence goes on to indicate that even if this was done it would still be a snap shot. You need to say why you didn't like it, and how to turn it from a snap shot to a better photograph

and what makes you so high and mighty that you can crit the crit

Read the whole thread and you'll see, and don't be so arrogant.

 

[POAH]

i'd say this is borderline.

you haven't said at all why it's a snap shot to you. No comment on what makes it poor in your opinion.

You did add a suggestion on how to improve the verticals but the rest of that sentence goes on to indicate that even if this was done it would still be a snap shot. You need to say why you didn't like it, and how to turn it from a snap shot to a better photograph



Read the whole thread and you'll see, and don't be so arrogant.

My point is that it is a snap shot and as such does not require crit.

I never said to improve the verticals


how is questioning why you can crit the crit being arrogant :shrug:

 

[specialman]

I'm struggling with this.

It's great trying to get people to crit more constructively, with more detail and without being rude - very honourable and constructive to the development of TP as somewhere to show your images and learn from others.

I agree that it's a snap shot and suspect that this shot was chosen because it's such a difficult image to crit without looking at it in the first place negatively. I can talk about correcting vertical, cleaning ups the CAs and putting a moody sky in there, but that's glossing over the fact that it purely serves to show a house in disrepair without any back story or context.

It's interesting that there seems to be two trains of thought here with regard to crit; the first is to correct the obvious and make the shot 'passable' with reference to those points. the other is to re-shoot, and then it's not the same shot so it's then down to critting the re-shoot.

Are you proud of this shot? I ask because one of the things I've always said on here is that photos submitted for crit should be ones you are proudest of and want to show off. Whether or not the shot is perfect, then that's for the crit to decide, but if you are posting an image for the sake of it and it means nothing to you then crit is pointless.

I remember commenting on some car images a while ago where the OP had taken some snapshots of a few exotic supercars but he had no control over lighting, people getting in shot and he was working in a tight space. He openly admitted that he's taken them in a hurry and couldn't get the angles he wanted. People were gushing over the desirability of the cars involved but not offering real crit - it was more of a love-in for car nuts. I suggested they were simply holiday snaps and he got the hump (we later kissed and made up). This was/is no way an isolated case; have a look through most of the image sections and you'll see some car porn or a series of images where the photographer has clearly gone mad with the shutter and hasn't been brutal enough to slim down to the key story-telling elements of what he was photographing.

It's an interesting thread but I honestly thing you're trying to lead people into some form of argument and not a constructive debate.

 

[joescrivens]

My point is that it is a snap shot and as such does not require crit.

a snap shot to you, but perhaps not to the taker

I never said to improve the verticals
how is questioning why you can crit the crit being arrogant :shrug:

It's the "high and mighty" bit. Very arrogant way of asking something.

 

[joescrivens]

I agree that it's a snap shot and suspect that this shot was chosen because it's such a difficult image to crit without looking at it in the first place negatively. I can talk about correcting vertical, cleaning ups the CAs and putting a moody sky in there, but that's glossing over the fact that it purely serves to show a house in disrepair without any back story or context.

this was why I chose it, yes. Some people claim that you can't say things matter of fact or to the point without offending. I wanted to deliberately put up an image that needs lots of work and is basically 'a snap' (it was for sure a snap, before I even knew anything about photography) so that people could show how to be very to the point on a poor image but show them they can do so without being rude. Kind of like an extreme scenario to explain that negative and direct crit can be given without the rudeness.

Are you proud of this shot? I ask because one of the things I've always said on here is that photos submitted for crit should be ones you are proudest of and want to show off. Whether or not the shot is perfect, then that's for the crit to decide, but if you are posting an image for the sake of it and it means nothing to you then crit is pointless.

No, I'm not proud of this shot at all. But as I said above, the point wasn't to actually get crit on this it was to show people how a very poor shot can be critiqued negatively and to the point, being very direct and not dancing around the bushes BUT!!!!!! - without being rude, which is what some people seem to claim can't be done, or they don't get. That was the point in the exercise.

It's an interesting thread but I honestly thing you're trying to lead people into some form of argument and not a constructive debate.

so far off the mark. Like I said at the beginning this started off as a bit of banter in the off topic section but the mods moved it and people took it serously so I said I would too.

 

[Byker28i]

Are you proud of this shot? I ask because one of the things I've always said on here is that photos submitted for crit should be ones you are proudest of and want to show off. Whether or not the shot is perfect, then that's for the crit to decide, but if you are posting an image for the sake of it and it means nothing to you then crit is pointless.

An interesting point but I'd disagree with this.
If I was asking for Crit, it may be on something I've not tried before and I'm asking if it's acceptable or ways to improve it.

 

[specialman]

An interesting point but I'd disagree with this.
If I was asking for Crit, it may be on something I've not tried before and I'm asking if it's acceptable or ways to improve it.

Of course, there are instances when shots are taken from an experimental view (i.e. trying out a processing or photographic style) but then generally the poster will say so. If it's a "Look at my photograph"-type post where the poster has put up an image for people to view then i think it applies. But point taken

Personally, I'm less concerned about rude crit and more bothered by the sheer volume of work being uploaded that has resulted in good images going unnoticed. We've had it time and again on TP, threads asking for people to be more involved in offering advice, especially to newcomers who are posting for the first time (and wish for as much assistance as they can get). When we have people uploading sets of 10+ images of a procession of cars, planes (or whatever), all taken from the same viewpoint, then it dilutes the forum's ability to give out useful advice and ultimately leaves people bored of trying to search for something worthwhile to crit.

 

[Byker28i]

I kinda see what you are saying but then this is a photography forum. It's not an exact science but one judged by artistic merit.

I think there's things to be learnt in poor shots as well as good ones.

 

[String]

I honestly can see the point of this thread, but unfortunately I had a really late night last night, there was a great film on TV. Then I got up this morning, had a cup of cofee and

 

[joescrivens]

and .... decided to post something pointless

 

[String]

No fell asleep.

I'm never rude in C&C. I always work on the principal of good bad good. To be honest, its quite often the reciever of the crit that spits the dummy. And if someone is determined to be rude about a shot, he will be. On that basis, it seems rather pointless

 

[joescrivens]

No fell asleep.

I'm never rude in C&C. I always work on the principal of good bad good. To be honest, its quite often the reciever of the crit that spits the dummy. And if someone is determined to be rude about a shot, he will be. On that basis, it seems rather pointless

Actually its more often the other way around. IT happens less often that someone gets acceptable crit and spits the dummy than someone posting rude crit causing the dummy spit. In my observations anyway.

If someone is determined to be rude, then the mods will put them in their place. Nothing pointless about the thread, it's to prove to those people who say you can't be direct without being rude are actually wrong

 

[CT]

Ok, so it seems some people can't see the difference between a rude piece of crit and a constructive one. So let's have a little practice for those people who struggle to see the difference. Below is a photograph that certainly could do with improvement.

Take a look at it and give us your attempt at crit and i'll advise you whether it was constructive or not and advise you how to adapt it

(First the good) It's quite well exposed, I'm not seeing any loss of shadow detail as someone said earlier, in fact I think it might stand a touch more contrast if anything .You've exposed well for the house, which is the main subject but there wasn't much you could do about that featureless sky with a single exposure. You could have taken a separate exposre for the sky and blended the shots later in processing.

(The not-so-good, but hopefully not a put down either)

It's probably an interesting old house standing there looking at it in the flesh, but the problem we have as photographers is commmunicating that in the shot. A different time of day perhaps morning or early evening, or better light could make all the difference, but it looks a bit flat and uninspiring as it stands. There look to be lots of interesting textures you could capture without the light coming from behind the house.

The distortion is due to you not standing centrally in front of the house, although I can see why that telegraph pole on the right would stop you doing that and the power lines are a real problem you can't overcome from that angle anyway. Perhaps a more distant shot showing the house in context to it's surroundings would have been a better bet and avoided your distortion issues?

Try shooting it again and look for different angles to try. You obviously saw something of interest in this house - it just hasn't translated into the shot.

 

[joescrivens]

(The not-so-good, but hopefully not a put down either)

not a put down at all. Very well written.

 

[TheBigYin]

I really do not think that I will ever be tactful enough to critique any shot of this nature in a manner you would find acceptable Joe... I'm amazed at the ability of some of the members here to be able to do so, but i'm just not tactful enough - if I think something is completely awful, then i'll do what my Granny recommended "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything" Frankly, I consider the picture to be at best a record shot, and at worst a waste of server space. However, your thread has at least taught me one thing - that I'd better not bother with giving critique again, as i'm not up to the standard you deem acceptable.

 

[CT]

I really do not think that I will ever be tactful enough to critique any shot of this nature in a manner you would find acceptable Joe... I'm amazed at the ability of some of the members here to be able to do so, but i'm just not tactful enough - if I think something is completely awful, then i'll do what my Granny recommended "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything" Frankly, I consider the picture to be at best a record shot, and at worst a waste of server space. However, your thread has at least taught me one thing - that I'd better not bother with giving critique again, as i'm not up to the standard you deem acceptable.

The thing you have to remember Mark is that the person who posts the shot may well be clutching his new camera, not knowing a from a bulls foot about photography or composition, but fired with an enthusiasm which most of us have probably forgotten, if indeed we ever experienced it. Rude crit which comes across as being from a know all redneck who's completely forgotten he was once there himself can be completely damaging to that enthusiasm. Don't just tell him or her what's wrong - tell 'em how to approach fixing it.

Above all think how you'd feel on the receiving end. If people can't do that then they probably shouldn't be doing it anyway.

Anyway Mark havin read many of your internet witterings I don't see you lacking the tact.

 

[joescrivens]

I really do not think that I will ever be tactful enough to critique any shot of this nature in a manner you would find acceptable Joe... I'm amazed at the ability of some of the members here to be able to do so, but i'm just not tactful enough - if I think something is completely awful, then i'll do what my Granny recommended "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything" Frankly, I consider the picture to be at best a record shot, and at worst a waste of server space. However, your thread has at least taught me one thing - that I'd better not bother with giving critique again, as i'm not up to the standard you deem acceptable.

I don't accept this.

Why can't you say:

"I really don't like it, there are lots of things I don't like about it, for example ........ (fill in two or three things here)....... in order to improve on those things I would recommend ........(add two or three suggestions to improve on what you didn't like)"

Job done. How can you not write something as straightforward and simple as that?

 

[CT]

What's with the house being taped off anyway Joe- I take it it's not a crime scene -birthplace of someone famous -Davy Crockett?

 

[joescrivens]

It's the birthplace of Martin Luther King actually in Atlanta, Georgia

 

[CT]

I was close then?

 

[joescrivens]

well they are both american!

 

[TheBigYin]

I don't accept this.

Why can't you say:

"I really don't like it, there are lots of things I don't like about it, for example ........ (fill in two or three things here)....... in order to improve on those things I would recommend ........(add two or three suggestions to improve on what you didn't like)"

Job done. How can you not write something as straightforward and simple as that?

Joe - frankly, if you accept it or not means nothing to me. If I can't say something positive about a shot (in amongst the things I'm less than positive about) I'm going to stay schtum - that's all there is to it.

 

[joescrivens]

Joe - frankly, if you accept it or not means nothing to me. If I can't say something positive about a shot (in amongst the things I'm less than positive about) I'm going to stay schtum - that's all there is to it.

well thats your prerogative.

But so long as the only reason you aren't saying anything is because you don't like saying negative things and not because you think that saying a negative thing can't be done in any other way than in a rude way. Because as has been proven here in this thread it can.

In your first post you claimed it was because you couldn't be tactful, which I think is bull. You don't need to be tactful, you can be direct, without being rude.

 

[TheBigYin]

I don't mind saying negative things - I just believe that if you're actually going to help someone - which giving critique is supposed to be about - then it's always better to say something positive amongst all the other comments. Sadly, I don't always have the time, energy or tact to find something positive to say about a shot that is as unremittingly awful as your test piece. I am in awe at the standard of crit. provided by EdBray, CT and Sara for example - and I am sure I could learn a great deal from their feedback had I taken the shot.

My honest approach would have been to ask the person posting what they were thinking at the time they took the shutter. Not in a "what were you thinking taking a shot as awful as that" but in a "Why did you choose to take this shot - it's obviously a record shot rather than anything scenic - is there some reason WHY you took a off-centre, converging verticals shot of a tatty old building, obscured by poles and wires."

(I did read the line that it was where MLK grew up, but that information wasn't proferred at the initial posting, and without this context the shot really is a waste of time and space!)

 

[joescrivens]

I don't mind saying negative things - I just believe that if you're actually going to help someone - which giving critique is supposed to be about - then it's always better to say something positive amongst all the other comments. Sadly, I don't always have the time, energy or tact to find something positive to say about a shot that is as unremittingly awful as your test piece. I am in awe at the standard of crit. provided by EdBray, CT and Sara for example - and I am sure I could learn a great deal from their feedback had I taken the shot.

You don't have to provide the extent of crit that others have done for it to be worthwhile crit.

There's also something different happening here.

The point of this thread is in response to people claiming that they can't give direct and negative crit without being rude. That is what we are disproving here.

Your reasons are personal choice. In your eyes you can't give negative crit without also saying something positive and as such since you can't find anything positive you then wouldn't give the negative. Personally I disagree with that, I think you can just say something negative as long as you say WHY, how to change and don't be rude about it. But each to their own opinion - it's a different problem than what this thread is designed to address.

 

[Vantage]

Ok, so it seems some people can't see the difference between a rude piece of crit and a constructive one. So let's have a little practice for those people who struggle to see the difference. Below is a photograph that certainly could dth improvement.

Take a look at it and give us your attempt at crit and i'll advise you whether it was constructive or not and advise you how to adapt it

Well played JOE. Not a great photo but, you know that. I wouldn't in my heart of heart post a pic that needed to be massaged by other tp's just because you had a question of rude vs a constructive one. If i posted that pic up i would be looking for construction, design, elements, composition....blah, which it would get trounced. 've had many-a-photo- that looks ******. As for the question being rude...I cant wait before i reach a million posts so everyone will love my pics.............

 

[Vantage]

Joe you are an fliaslfaslghasdhas. crap photo!

 

[EdBray]

I am in awe at the standard of crit. provided by EdBray, CT and Sara for example - and I am sure I could learn a great deal from their feedback had I taken the shot.

Bleddy hell, my head will be as big as my belly soon

There are lots of good examples of criticism across many threads, but as someone else said "in depth crit takes time", I like giving in depth criticism but do not always have the time to do so, unfortunately, due to my being off sick last week, I had more time on my hands than usual so was able to offer some in depth crit not just in this thread (where it was given for effect) but in others too.

The biggest issue I have is with those that post many images in one thread and want crit on all of them.

Authors should become their own biggest critic, and use some discretion and choose what they believe is the image that they feel would give them the greatest chance of improving their technique through the critique received rather than posting a number of images and receiving few if any useful tips for improvements.