Practising Constructive Crit

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joescrivens

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Ok, so it seems some people can't see the difference between a rude piece of crit and a constructive one. So let's have a little practice for those people who struggle to see the difference. Below is a photograph that certainly could do with improvement.

Take a look at it and give us your attempt at crit and i'll advise you whether it was constructive or not and advise you how to adapt it

:D

5223404762_b8e7b589b8_b.jpg
 
ok, so where you went wrong was by not saying what you didn't like, instead you just used a rude term.

Try pointing out some of the things that you didn't like, but for at least half of them say how you could change them.

So, with this in mind ... try again :D
 
Nice shot .... (have I got enough posts to sell stuff yet :D )
 
It's an interesting and thought-provoking concept which strives to show the defects of modern living when viewed from behind the bushes of community order. The angular effect of the telephone lines supports the diverse direction of travel amongst different groups of society and the yellow kerb edging reminds one of the enforced standards of living in an ordered society.
The railings across the front steps superbly illustrates the taboos in society, whilst the sunlight around the bush shadows denote how those taboos are forcefully being brought into the light and exposed.
The pole on the right clearly indicates the way society today is in desperate need of support, however the looming red brick building to the right conveys the despair over this support being lacking.
The sky is quite novel at this particular time, reminding one of the situation of many who are stuck in the snowdrifts of life.
All in all a very thought provoking image, which deserves to be viewed in the context of modern society and its varied and often conflicting demands.
 
I like No. 1, No. 1, No, 1, No. 7 and No. 22
 
gramps said:
It's an interesting and thought-provoking concept which strives to show the defects of modern living when viewed from behind the bushes of community order. The angular effect of the telephone lines supports the diverse direction of travel amongst different groups of society and the yellow kerb edging reminds one of the enforced standards of living in an ordered society.
The railings across the front steps superbly illustrates the taboos in society, whilst the sunlight around the bush shadows denote how those taboos are forcefully being brought into the light and exposed.
The pole on the right clearly indicates the way society today is in desperate need of support, however the looming red brick building to the right conveys the despair over this support being lacking.
The sky is quite novel at this particular time, reminding one of the situation of many who are stuck in the snowdrifts of life.
All in all a very thought provoking image, which deserves to be viewed in the context of modern society and its varied and often conflicting demands.
Click to expand...

Close.

It's where Martin Luther King grew up :lol:
 
gramps said:
It's an interesting and thought-provoking concept which strives to show the defects of modern living when viewed from behind the bushes of community order. The angular effect of the telephone lines supports the diverse direction of travel amongst different groups of society and the yellow kerb edging reminds one of the enforced standards of living in an ordered society.
The railings across the front steps superbly illustrates the taboos in society, whilst the sunlight around the bush shadows denote how those taboos are forcefully being brought into the light and exposed.
The pole on the right clearly indicates the way society today is in desperate need of support, however the looming red brick building to the right conveys the despair over this support being lacking.
The sky is quite novel at this particular time, reminding one of the situation of many who are stuck in the snowdrifts of life.
All in all a very thought provoking image, which deserves to be viewed in the context of modern society and its varied and often conflicting demands.
Click to expand...

So it's you who's been teaching all these photography students :)
 
So what makes you think you are qualified to advise me on how to adapt my criticism?

But I will play your little game and give an in depth critique as I used to for local photographic clubs and societies.

The image is well exposed and is reasonably sharp, although could probably do with a little extra sharpening using USM.

As shot the image is a little static and has nothing really dynamic to lift it from a standard snapshot into an interesting image. The light is not the best for that subject from that angle and the image itself is flat and uninspiring, although it may well still be perfect as an 'aide memoir'

So how could I improve upon it?

I am not a fan of converging verticals and in this case as the main subject is the building I would have preferred to have seen them straightened. Had you moved a little closer and had the ability to use a wider focal length or perspective control lens then you would have been able to avoid getting the telegraph pole, telephone lines and the edge of the buildings and roof on the LHS of the image in the shot and this would have concentrated more on the subject itself, had you also moved a little to your right (if possible) then the subject would have been more central and had a better visual perspective which then being more symmetrical would have given a more artistic feel to the image, although this may have brought the telegraph pole back into the shot..

The lighting is not really in the optimum position to give good definition and form being high, slightly backlit and from the side which, whilst excellent for portraiture is not so good for bringing out detail in a relatively flat subject such as architectural images, as the flat light does not give good highlights and shadows and thus create depth.

If I had been taking this image I would perhaps of shot the front facade of the house more dynamically, by shooting at a different time of day (when the light is striking it), from a more obtuse angle (depending on where the light was coming from) perhaps at about 60 degrees from the front at either side, my preference would have been from the left as we look to minimise the impact of the tall red brick builing on the RHS. This would have brought out the small details and given a more interesting and visually appealling subject, bt the main problem to overcome with the shot is the direction of the light.

If you do need to have converging verticals then it is usually best to emphasise them for effect rather than just have them look as if it was an unfortunate problem that could not be overcome.

Marks out of 10, 5.
 
OK - How's this.

Theres a couple of things with this shot that it would be beneficial to think about, especially if you can go back and retake it. I'll look at a couple of things as I'm sure others will be along to give some more advise.

The sky has got really blown highlights and is lacking in almost all detail. You could have spotted this was a problem quite easily if you had your 'blinkies' enables in your camera menu. This would have meant that all the white and blown highlights were flashing, so you could have made a decision from there about how to try to retake the picture. Did you want the sky to have some detail? If so, you needed to expose on the sky and probably consider some sort of exposure blend as there's a real difference between the sky and foreground. If you have some bracketed shots, that would be great.

It's very cluttered with wires and poles (Not the EU ones :D) and so perhaps a different angle would have helped with this. Alternatively the cloning tool in PP is your friend to try to clone out what you can of those distracting wires.

There is a bit of an overall lack of contrats in my opinion and the picture is looking a little on the flat side. Boost the contrast in PP and see the difference.

It's worth thinking about the time of day you take pics like this as well. The light is very harsh, you'd get better light and colours if you concentrate on taking these pics during the early morning of late, about an hour before the sun sets.

Here's my attempt at some C&C. I try to give solutions to what I see as issues. I am a realtive amatuer though, so would really welcome a comment on whether this is constructive crit. Am I now qualified to give crit? Is it helpful? :shrug: As an aside, it would have helped to have some info from the poster with this shot. What did they have in mind when they took it? WHat did they want to achieve?

** Edit added ** Blimey ED - That's great, wish you'd crit more often - I think I'll get my coat.
 
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TBH I wouldn't normally bother to crit a shot as, errm, "challenging" as this one, but as an exercise and as a way of postponing a boring job I should be getting on with, here goes.....

[CRIT]
This is an interesting building and I can see why you have been attracted to it. I like patterns formed by the white pillars and the narrow slats of the balustrade, and the subdued shades are pleasing.

There are quite a lot of distracting elements, though. I know that in an urban situation it can be difficult to get the best viewpoint and avoid all the junk, but you could improve this quite a lot simply by cropping in on the house to lose the lamp post on the right and the bits on the left, and most of the pavement in the foreground. It could do with a bit of a straighten, too (do this before cropping, of course). Then a bit of cloning to remove the wires at the top - Wireworm is a free plug-in for Photoshop/Elements which does this quite easily.

The subject has a lot of potential - would it be possible to go back for another try, at another time of day? For instance, sidelighting would give you interesting shadow patterns. I think it may always be difficult here to avoid unwanted elements - that gate across the front looks pretty shut to me - so try zooming in on smaller details and from different angles. I think you could find lots of interesting images in peeling paint, repeating patterns and shadows. You could even try some dramatic B&W conversions.

All just my opinion, though. :)
[/CRIT]

What do you think? I've tried to be tactful, but it took quite a bit of time.
 
I like it, at least its not a photo of a baby :-P
 
gramps said:
It's an interesting and thought-provoking concept which strives to show the defects of modern living when viewed from behind the bushes of community order. The angular effect of the telephone lines supports the diverse direction of travel amongst different groups of society and the yellow kerb edging reminds one of the enforced standards of living in an ordered society.
The railings across the front steps superbly illustrates the taboos in society, whilst the sunlight around the bush shadows denote how those taboos are forcefully being brought into the light and exposed.
The pole on the right clearly indicates the way society today is in desperate need of support, however the looming red brick building to the right conveys the despair over this support being lacking.
The sky is quite novel at this particular time, reminding one of the situation of many who are stuck in the snowdrifts of life.
All in all a very thought provoking image, which deserves to be viewed in the context of modern society and its varied and often conflicting demands.
Click to expand...

Lol....with waffle like that, you could easily get a job as a tutor on one of those crappy art college courses!
 
EdBray said:
So what makes you think you are qualified to advise me on how to adapt my criticism?
Click to expand...

I would say, what makes me qualified, is that I can tell the difference between rude crit and constructive crit and this thread is for people who can't. It was originally posted in out of focus as a bit of banter but since the mods moved it if people want to take it seriously then I'll play along.

Your crit was excellent by the way have been lots of others posted here. Unfortunately I would say that most people don't have the time to post the crit as detailed as lots have done here so a message to all is that crit doesn't have to be this detailed to be useful. If it is then thats excellent but this thread is to indicate the difference between constructive and rude comments rather than differentiate between what is really in depth crit and what isn't :thumbs:
 
swag72 said:
OK - How's this.

Theres a couple of things with this shot that it would be beneficial to think about, especially if you can go back and retake it. I'll look at a couple of things as I'm sure others will be along to give some more advise.

The sky has got really blown highlights and is lacking in almost all detail. You could have spotted this was a problem quite easily if you had your 'blinkies' enables in your camera menu. This would have meant that all the white and blown highlights were flashing, so you could have made a decision from there about how to try to retake the picture. Did you want the sky to have some detail? If so, you needed to expose on the sky and probably consider some sort of exposure blend as there's a real difference between the sky and foreground. If you have some bracketed shots, that would be great.

It's very cluttered with wires and poles (Not the EU ones :D) and so perhaps a different angle would have helped with this. Alternatively the cloning tool in PP is your friend to try to clone out what you can of those distracting wires.

There is a bit of an overall lack of contrats in my opinion and the picture is looking a little on the flat side. Boost the contrast in PP and see the difference.

It's worth thinking about the time of day you take pics like this as well. The light is very harsh, you'd get better light and colours if you concentrate on taking these pics during the early morning of late, about an hour before the sun sets.

Here's my attempt at some C&C. I try to give solutions to what I see as issues. I am a realtive amatuer though, so would really welcome a comment on whether this is constructive crit. Am I now qualified to give crit? Is it helpful? :shrug: As an aside, it would have helped to have some info from the poster with this shot. What did they have in mind when they took it? WHat did they want to achieve?

** Edit added ** Blimey ED - That's great, wish you'd crit more often - I think I'll get my coat.
Click to expand...

spot on crit for me, nothing rude in there at all and you went about it in a superb way. But me thinks you don't need lessons on how to differentiate rude crit from constructive
 
Tracer said:
TBH I wouldn't normally bother to crit a shot as, errm, "challenging" as this one, but as an exercise and as a way of postponing a boring job I should be getting on with, here goes.....

[CRIT]
This is an interesting building and I can see why you have been attracted to it. I like patterns formed by the white pillars and the narrow slats of the balustrade, and the subdued shades are pleasing.

There are quite a lot of distracting elements, though. I know that in an urban situation it can be difficult to get the best viewpoint and avoid all the junk, but you could improve this quite a lot simply by cropping in on the house to lose the lamp post on the right and the bits on the left, and most of the pavement in the foreground. It could do with a bit of a straighten, too (do this before cropping, of course). Then a bit of cloning to remove the wires at the top - Wireworm is a free plug-in for Photoshop/Elements which does this quite easily.

The subject has a lot of potential - would it be possible to go back for another try, at another time of day? For instance, sidelighting would give you interesting shadow patterns. I think it may always be difficult here to avoid unwanted elements - that gate across the front looks pretty shut to me - so try zooming in on smaller details and from different angles. I think you could find lots of interesting images in peeling paint, repeating patterns and shadows. You could even try some dramatic B&W conversions.

All just my opinion, though. :)
[/CRIT]

What do you think? I've tried to be tactful, but it took quite a bit of time.
Click to expand...

awesome crit, again very detailed and you wouldn't be able to put this amount of detail in every time, like you say - it took a long time. The point is you said what you didn't like and said why and it was perfectly tactful. It needn't have even been as tactful as it was. Theres a very big difference between to the point and straightforward crit and rudeness. It doesn't have to be massaged with praise in order for it to worth posting, just doesn't need the blunt rudeness of a "I think it's ****"
 
Worse than "I think its a steaming pile of whatever" is the wall of silence.

The silence that means either:

1) My photographic genius has slamdunked you all into awed silence

2) You can't find the words to describe just how awful it is.

#1 usually applies to my threads, or maybe its #2 :D
 
desantnik said:
Worse than "I think its a steaming pile of whatever" is the wall of silence.

The silence that means either:

1) My photographic genius has slamdunked you all into awed silence

2) You can't find the words to describe just how awful it is.

#1 usually applies to my threads, or maybe its #2 :D
Click to expand...

but this is the point. If you feel like the photo is really poor why don't you have the vocabulary to express it in a way that isn't just being outright rude.

What's wrong with:

"I really don't like this photo. It doesn't have anything of any interest in it to me. It needs something to grab the interest of the viewer. For example, take the photo at a different time of day when the light is more interesting and the sky isn't blown out."

it says the same thing as "I think its a steaming pile of whatever" but it is constructive - how can you not understand that?
 
joescrivens said:
Ok, so it seems some people can't see the difference between a rude piece of crit and a constructive one. So let's have a little practice for those people who struggle to see the difference. Below is a photograph that certainly could do with improvement.

Take a look at it and give us your attempt at crit and i'll advise you whether it was constructive or not and advise you how to adapt it

:D

5223404762_b8e7b589b8_b.jpg
Click to expand...

It works both ways. Any critique can be interpreted positively or negatively by anyone seeking it.

If something is crap, its crap.

I suppose the key is reasoned criticism, not a mere statment/phrase whether somone likes it or not
 
good_fella7777 said:
It works both ways. Any critique can be interpreted positively or negatively by anyone seeking it.

If something is crap, its crap.

I suppose the key is reasoned criticism, not a mere statment/phrase whether somone likes it or not
Click to expand...

not just that, it's the phrases used. Why does the phrase have to be an emotive one like crap?

Saying something is crap immediately belittles the poster, if you know people then you can use terms like that. Saying "I don't like it" is the same message without the insult. but then like you say, add a reason why or how to improve it
 
joescrivens said:
but this is the point. If you feel like the photo is really poor why don't you have the vocabulary to express it in a way that isn't just being outright rude.

What's wrong with:

"I really don't like this photo. It doesn't have anything of any interest in it to me. It needs something to grab the interest of the viewer. For example, take the photo at a different time of day when the light is more interesting and the sky isn't blown out."

it says the same thing as "I think its a steaming pile of whatever" but it is constructive - how can you not understand that?
Click to expand...

Agreed but most folks don't like to cause offence so it's easier to say nothing rather than post negative feedback. I think most forum users have seen even the best intentioned crit end up with internet war.

Personally I only comment on photos that interest me, sometimes the crit is positive and other times it's not. But if I'm ambivalent towards the image then I'm hardly going to bring myself to type something about it - and I would expect people to react the same way to mine.

It would be great if everyone got feedback on how to improve their images, however not everyone wants to hear what's wrong with their photo.
 
joescrivens said:
don't worry I deliberately put up a poorly taken photo. A snap with my compact before I even realised what photography was :D
Click to expand...

"Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" :D
 
joescrivens said:
not just that, it's the phrases used. Why does the phrase have to be an emotive one like crap?

Saying something is crap immediately belittles the poster, if you know people then you can use terms like that. Saying "I don't like it" is the same message without the insult. but then like you say, add a reason why or how to improve it
Click to expand...

Agree, but then again, someone may not be so gifted with their vocabulary or perhaps the use of a certain word is delibrate to emphasise on a specific point. If its reasoned it addresses that point.

Look at it this way, the use of a negative word may actually motivate an optimist to produce better work

Having said that I personally wouldn't use something like'crap' to describe someone's work
 
Taxilian said:
Agreed but most folks don't like to cause offence so it's easier to say nothing rather than post negative feedback. I think most forum users have seen even the best intentioned crit end up with internet war.

Personally I only comment on photos that interest me, sometimes the crit is positive and other times it's not. But if I'm ambivalent towards the image then I'm hardly going to bring myself to type something about it - and I would expect people to react the same way to mine.

It would be great if everyone got feedback on how to improve their images, however not everyone wants to hear what's wrong with their photo.
Click to expand...

Well these are two other issues. The first being if someone does give negative crit tht is not rude and people take offence then they need to learn how to accept crit and should be educated to do so. I see this much more rarely than just flat rude crit

the second issue is fine, I also don't comment on photos that don't interest me - there's nothing wrong with that. However if we feel there are more and more photos coming through that are less interesting, we should inject our opinions to make the next post more interesting by the
at person. It can be rewarding to help someone with a poor image and then see them come back with a much improved effort based on your advise -this then helps the community to get better quality pics for us to look at!
 
good_fella7777 said:
Agree, but then again, someone may not be so gifted with their vocabulary or perhaps the use of a certain word is delibrate to emphasise on a specific point. If its reasoned it addresses that point.

Look at it this way, the use of a negative word may actually motivate an optimist to produce better work

Having said that I personally wouldn't use something like'crap' to describe someone's work
Click to expand...

yes, but at the same time it can destroy someones confidence and make them no longer participate. I don't think you have to be gifted with vocabulary to be able to moderate your own comments.
 
joescrivens said:
It can be rewarding to help someone with a poor image and then see them come back with a much improved effort based on your advise -this then helps the community to get better quality pics for us to look at!
Click to expand...

I totally agree. I provide feedback where I think I can add something rather than for the sake of it, I find it makes you think a bit more which benefits you just as much as the OP....and I can find bad photos just as interesting as good ones, if I didn't I'd have to delete most of mine ;)

It would be great to see more feedback but sometimes it's get a little swamped on the sharing section - though again this is a different issue.
 
joescrivens said:
What's wrong with:

"I really don't like this photo. It doesn't have anything of any interest in it to me. It needs something to grab the interest of the viewer. For example...
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong and it wouldn't upset me to receive it BUT..... I personally can't bring myself to start as baldly as this. I would put something like: "I'm afraid this photo doesn't do anything for me - I think it needs something more to grab the interest of the viewer. Etc."

And therein lies the problem - people have different levels of sensitivity.

joescrivens said:
However if we feel there are more and more photos coming through that are less interesting, we should inject our opinions to make the next post more interesting by the at person. It can be rewarding to help someone with a poor image and then see them come back with a much improved effort based on your advise -this then helps the community to get better quality pics for us to look at!
Click to expand...
Agreed :thumbs:
 
Tracer said:
Nothing wrong and it wouldn't upset me to receive it BUT..... I personally can't bring myself to start as baldly as this. I would put something like: "I'm afraid this photo doesn't do anything for me - I think it needs something more to grab the interest of the viewer. Etc."

And therein lies the problem - people have different levels of sensitivity.
Click to expand...

You'd be right to start it as you said and most people will be like that. But there are some people here that say they don't want to have to massage their comments and my point is that they don't. Saying "I don't like this" and why is perfectly acceptable and allows these people to stay being very direct and to the point. If someone gets upset with a comment put this way after asking for an opinion then they have no right to spit the dummy and the poster who said it can feel agreived and annoyed they didn't take their crit.

what is silly is when OP asks for crit, poster is direct AND rude, OP takes offense, poster moans. The poster is IN THE WRONG!!!! Not the OP!! I'm sorry but they are!, asking for crit and asking to be insulted are 2 different things.

poster can say directly they didn't like it and why without being rude. It's simple, just use different vocabulary
 
i don't think anyone is disputing this happens, and I don't like it either. But it's a little irrelevant to this particular thread regarding rude or not rude crit .... isn't it? Your post is about people who don't respond to crit given at all.
 
swag72 said:
** Edit added ** Blimey ED - That's great, wish you'd crit more often - I think I'll get my coat.
Click to expand...

Thanks Sara, and at the risk of sounding patronising, there is little wrong with your Crit either.
 
As it stands, it's a fairly ok but boring photo of an ok but boring building.

Go back and re-shoot, but this time do it at a different time of day to capitalise on the more dramatic lighting that early morning or late afternoon offers - late afternoon would be better.
You'll also need 2 jerry-cans of petrol, some rags and a box of matches. Soak the upstairs room with small quantities of fuel - sofas and other soft-furnishings will soak up the petrol and help prevent it from evaporating too quickly in the heat of the afternoon.
Light a small fire in the basement and call the fire dept. Wait til the engines arrive and start shooting.
The flames will look so much better against a lowering sky and the fireman's uniforms will look great when the water-soaked cloth and equipment reflects off the sunset and the firelight.
 
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