Practicing my photography but venue tog had a moan at me :(

Bucephalas69 said:
Very few clubs/organizations will give a tog an exclusive contract to shoot. Equestrian togs are 2-a-penny so why should they. The exception would be to events where the public are required to pay for entry or the tog has paid for a trade stand but even then they are normally unwilling to submit themselves to any contract on their part.
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REALLY??? I must have been very unlucky then, running into all these exclusive contracts...
 
artona said:
Your arguements are full of flaws arkady. You say if you are good enough they will buy off you but then counter this by saying they will always buy off the cheapest, so what is it best or cheapest or do you have to be the best and the cheapest, what a load of rubbish.

If I pay a concession to photograph an event I expect to have exclusivity and I get it too.
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mm..yeah...whatever...
 
Arkady said:
And what right do you have to do this - and how would you enforce it...?
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every right.. private property organised event.. and if you read the thread properly you would know I wouldnt enforce it.. I take pictures not enforce rules.. I have never and would never tell a photographer they can or cant take pictures..

I think you need to count to ten :)
 
KIPAX said:
every right.. private property organised event.. and if you read the thread properly you would know I wouldnt enforce it.. I take pictures not enforce rules.. I have never and would never tell a photographer they can or cant take pictures... :)
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er...so if you're NOT going to tell the other photographers not to take photos or market them and aren't prepared to defend what you percieve as your fiefdom, why bother getting upset about it...?

I couldn't care less personally as I don't go to 'events' to take photos, but it seems to be a huge issue with some of you...
It's like the debate that continually rages about 'amateur' wedding Photographers and people giving free images to newspapers...

I find it all a bit bewildering...

If you've found a nich market, you should strive to be the best you can be; only by doing that can you protect your interests - not by claiming exclusive rights at venues that are impossible to police - if you find that someone is undercutting you, either get better at your job so that the customers keep coming to you, reduce your rates or go elsewhere...

Say I find an 'event' that interested me (like Mountain-Biking used to). Do I worry that there are several established Pros already covering the scene who appear to have the market locked-in as far as the MTB press is concerned?
Am I going to be put off by them giving me grief when I appear at all the races?
Am I going to stop sending picture editors thumbnails of my images in an attempt to break-in?

Just because they tell me they're the 'official Photographers and to b****r off'...?

No I am not...

No: I hammered the magazines after every race I could attend and although it took a whole season (mostly because my early efforts were rubbish/barely adequate compared to the guys that had been covering the races for years), I started getting stuff published...
The next season I was getting stuff published fairly regularly.

No-one's going to give you an opportunity in this game - you have to take it - and if that means one of you gets left in the gutter, so be it - my priority is putting bread on my table, not on yours.
 
Arkady said:
er...so if you're NOT going to tell the other photographers not to take photos or market them and aren't prepared to defend what you percieve as your fiefdom, why bother getting upset about it...?
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eeerm why would I be upset.. i wasnt even there :)

Arkady said:
I couldn't care less personally as I don't go to 'events' to take photos
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now I am confused. you seem a little irate for someone who doesnt care and obviously has no idea how things are done in the current market


Arkady said:
Am I wearing women's underwear? Yes yes I am.
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that was real clever the way you bypassed the swear filter... gosh.
 
Just to confuse things (and I think this was mentioned earlier) if an event "hires" a park from the council then, for the purposes of the event it's private land. The better test I think is was a fee charged for entry.
 
KIPAX said:
eeerm why would I be upset.. i wasnt even there :)



now I am confused. you seem a little irate for someone who doesnt care and obviously has no idea how things are done in the current market




that was real clever the way you bypassed the swear filter... gosh.
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As you wish...
 
I think some togs are just a little too precious tbh, how many of the people who turn up to practice and use the cameras for their own enjoyment will have a quality printer running in their backpacks? Ive said it before and i will say it again, if there are no signs up telling me that i cant do something, then the answer to anyone who comes up and tells me I cant cos they are the 'event tog' will be short and blunt. Business is business, the company i work for has had its products and services copied for years, but instead of moaning, the company developes and pushes the envelope, making its products better from the crowd, photographers should do the same.

the other point is, i have around 2k worth of kit, but that doesnt mean my pictures of a horse are going to be anywhere near as good as the tog whos been doing it for years...
 
matty said:
I think some togs are just a little too precious tbh, how many of the people who turn up to practice and use the cameras for their own enjoyment will have a quality printer running in their backpacks? Ive said it before and i will say it again, if there are no signs up telling me that i cant do something, then the answer to anyone who comes up and tells me I cant cos they are the 'event tog' will be short and blunt. Business is business, the company i work for has had its products and services copied for years, but instead of moaning, the company developes and pushes the envelope, making its products better from the crowd, photographers should do the same.

the other point is, i have around 2k worth of kit, but that doesnt mean my pictures of a horse are going to be anywhere near as good as the tog whos been doing it for years...
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Thank you, thank you, thank you - somebody at least gets it...
I understand the market very well having operated in it at various levels for many years, including a short stint covering the London beat for PA a few years back - try telling a Fleet-Street Press pack you're the 'official 'Tog' and see how far it gets you...lol
 
Natalie_B said:
oops i forgot to say, it was held in a large park open to the public so surely it would be impossible to stop personal photos ?
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If it was on open public land the other tog needs to reel there neck in and concentrator on taking photos!
 
Well I have watched this debate with interest and have to say I agree with Arkady 100%.

So many tog's are getting heated these days about other photographers turning up and shooting with a dslr, event togs, wedding togs etc etc. Like Arkady says, your results should speak for themselves. If you are of a standard that you know others will struggle to equal then what's the issue. Competition is good, it is what keeps us on our toes, it is what makes us strive to continually improve and it also means that when you are recognised in your field that you have beat the competition and can then start charging a premium for your images.
 
So many tog's are getting heated these days about other photographers turning up and shooting with a dslr, event togs, wedding togs etc etc. Like Arkady says, your results should speak for themselves. If you are of a standard that you know others will struggle to equal then what's the issue. Competition is good, it is what keeps us on our toes, it is what makes us strive to continually improve and it also means that when you are recognised in your field that you have beat the competition and can then start charging a premium for your images.
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:thumbs: Spot on Arron

I've been watching this forum for a while, and it never fails to amaze me that photographers feel they're exempt from all the rules that apply in any other industry,it's called competition. If you're stupid enough to pay to be the exclusive Tog at an event that can't possibly be policed:bang:
 
Looking at this in another context...

Say you've paid £250 for a stand at a wedding fair. On the day I turn up, pay 50p on the door as a punter and then start wandering the room showing people sample albums and handing out price lists that are 1/4 of your prices.

Sound fair?
 
No, but that's Life...
And it's not quite the same thing...
 
Well yes it is, at least from my point of view. It's that type of situation I think the event togs are objecting to but it seems like that point got lost in the squabbling.

I don't think anyone said Joe Public can't turn up and shoot for fun/practice/etc. It's only when someone turns up with a clear intention to make some money that there's ground for complaint. How valid that complaint is will depend largely on the individual event and what the contract between the tog and event says.
 
AliB said:
It does not matter what her shots were like, if she has an exclusive contract with the venue then you should not have been there.

You often find that events have their own "exclusive" tog, contracts are in place to make sure of it and it it often a condition of entry that you are not to take pics. (I remember there was a dog show with the same question on here last year)

Sorry, but if she has such a contract she is perfectly entitled to ask you to leave.
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get her to prove she had a contract. take nobodys word for anything!!!!
 
pxl8 said:
Well yes it is, at least from my point of view. It's that type of situation I think the event togs are objecting to but it seems like that point got lost in the squabbling.

I don't think anyone said Joe Public can't turn up and shoot for fun/practice/etc. It's only when someone turns up with a clear intention to make some money that there's ground for complaint. How valid that complaint is will depend largely on the individual event and what the contract between the tog and event says.
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I'll say it again - if I turn up to an open event and see an opportunity to make some money, someone telling me that they're the 'official' tog and that I can't take images will get told to eff off...politely at first then a little more forcibly if they don't take the hint...
It's an open market, no matter what 'protected' staus they think they might have... in my experience, there's no such thing...
 
Arkady said:
I'll say it again - if I turn up to an open event and see an opportunity to make some money, someone telling me that they're the 'official' tog and that I can't take images will get told to eff off...politely at first then a little more forcibly if they don't take the hint...
It's an open market, no matter what 'protected' staus they think they might have... in my experience, there's no such thing...
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Even if there is an official Tog there who has been employed to do the job and has a contract with the organisers?
 
Let's change the emphasis a bit. You're booked to do an advertising shoot, anywhere outdoors.

Things are going along fine but then some random tog appears, shows the producer a few shots taken over your shoulder and says he'll do the work for 50% of your rate. Still okay?
 
Arkady said:
politely at first then a little more forcibly if they don't take the hint...
It's an open market, no matter what 'protected' staus they think they might have... in my experience, there's no such thing...
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Oh dear Arkady. Not really the way to deal with people is it? Very immature. Your "experience" is obviously not that wide is it?

Lets just hope people will treat you the same way you treat them in the commercial world.
 
oi-oi...I think you should re-think responses like that, Dave - you have absolutely no idea of who I am or of how much experience I have. Obviously...

Dod - An advertising shoot isn't a 'Public Event' is it? We're talking Festivals, equestrian shows etc etc...
A privately-arranged shoot is obviously off-limits, although I have had people poaching shots over my shoulders in the past - there's nothing you can do about it...I even had to remind the model who was paying her at one point as her eyes kept wanderding to the other guy lurking behind me with his Pentax ME Super...lol
 
Arkady said:
oi-oi...I think you should re-think responses like that, Dave - you have absolutely no idea of who I am or of how much experience I have. Obviously...

Dod - An advertising shoot isn't a 'Public Event' is it? We're talking Festivals, equestrian shows etc etc...
A privately-arranged shoot is obviously off-limits, although I have had people poaching shots over my shoulders in the past - there's nothing you can do about it...I even had to remind the model who was paying her at one point as her eyes kept wanderding to the other guy lurking behind me with his Pentax ME Super...lol
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Maybe you do not understand the UK laws Arkady, certainly the way you write you don't. Are you working in a different country?
 
artona said:
Maybe you do not understand the UK laws Arkady, certainly the way you write you don't. Are you working in a different country?
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which laws artona?

as far as i was aware, noone but a high court can do anything bout any pictures you have taken, and unless they are considered indecent, then youll struggle to block them being used. the most a event organizer can do is kick you out as far as im aware:shrug:

sort of reminds you of the pirates code from the films, its either the law you live by or a guideline.
 
Threatening or implying that that is how you would react is not a very friendly way to behave is it.
 
Arkady said:
Dod - An advertising shoot isn't a 'Public Event' is it? We're talking Festivals, equestrian shows etc etc...
A privately-arranged shoot is obviously off-limits,
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But, by definition Arkady this IS a privately arranged shoot. IF the event tog is contracted and IF the land has been rented to the organisers for the purpose of holding their event then it IS a privately arranged shoot.

That was my point in post 1. :D
 
fletch5 said:
which laws artona?

as far as i was aware, noone but a high court can do anything bout any pictures you have taken, and unless they are considered indecent, then youll struggle to block them being used. the most a event organizer can do is kick you out as far as im aware:shrug:

sort of reminds you of the pirates code from the films, its either the law you live by or a guideline.
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I was refering to arkady's remark that his advertising shoot was a private affair. Well if its in a public place and he has not actually hired that public place for his shoot then we can all snap away. I read his post that he implied that because he was paying for the model it was a private affair :shake::shake:

As to your comments you are right, the result is you would be kicked off if you breached your rights of entry and if those rights excluded you from taking photographs for commercial gain or looked as though you were taking them for commercial gain then the door you would be shown, especially if I was there covering the event. Do you really think that an experienced pro is going to take on the costs of covering an event and not sort these things out before event.
 
I do see the point that Arkady is making - anyone can turn up and decide to have a go at making some money if they choose and there's little the "official" tog can do to stop them. You can't stop everyone with a decent camera from taking photos, it's unreasonable and impossible to police anyway.

By the same token, repeat offenders or those caught promoting or marketing themselves at the event can be asked to leave under the laws of trespass - even on so called "public land" and in some circumstances that might be a suitable solution.

Or it might be that the repeat offender finds there's a problem with their tyres or some other form of discouragement is employed which is every bit as morally questionable as their own actions have been ;)

What's clear is that an event shooter should consider the risks before entering into some kind of contract for rights. Perhaps the best solution would be to leave the event non-exclusive and sell on a quality/price basis in an open market but that does mean the event will have to cover the shortfall in income which might have an impact on numbers elsewhere :shrug:
 
All this banging on about rights and laws.

No one has mentioned good manners and intent.

There's a big difference between shooting and actively stealing business, I dont think the original event tog actually checked which the OP was doing?
 
Manners are all well and good but if it comes to getting a paycheck and not getting one, then I'll be the meanest [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] out there...while I'm working.

A public event is a 'Fair-Game' opportunity...a privately-arranged shoot, if staged in public is equally fair-game (which is why I laghed when it happened - there's nothing that can be done about it...).

We're talking here about open events where Photographers have paid the organisers to cover officially - but there is NO provision - if it's a PUBLIC EVENT, for excluding other photographers...

There is no 'Law' which prevents unafiliated photographers turning up to a Public Event, even one that has an official photographer, and taking their own images for sale. None.

Good manners, 'spirit' of the occasion, it's all bull - if you class yourself as a Pro, the ONLY thing that counts is getting the images and getting paid...

Now, some of you guys seem very nice, well-meaning fellows, but your naivity in this is breathtaking...
 
Put yourself in her shoes, what would you have done?
 
Personally I would have taken a photo of her glaring at me and then carried on regardless. If she couldn't produce any documents saying she was the one and only then she can whistle as far as I'm concerned.
 
Scotty B said:
Personally I would have taken a photo of her glaring at me and then carried on regardless. If she couldn't produce any documents saying she was the one and only then she can whistle as far as I'm concerned.
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I agree if its a public place she needs to get on and stop being so insecure, but if its a private event and she's paid for exclusivity then thats a different matter, but why take the aggresive approach at least at first - naive as it seems the friendly approach to most situations normally works shed loads better

Hugh
 
Arkady said:
Now, some of you guys seem very nice, well-meaning fellows, but your naivity in this is breathtaking...
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I contacted the organisers of an event recently only to be told that they had an official photographer covering the event so I contacted him, said I was going to photos of one particular aspect and did he need another photographer on his team. He didn't but would contact me if anyone dropped out.

As it turned out I was the only person photographing that particular class and I was contacted afterwards by a couple (including one competitor who found my images on TP). I contacted the official photographer who was okay with me offering pictures and may want me next year for that event.

Being honest and fair with other photographers might also result in work.

All might be fair in love and war (if you forget about all the guidelines and conventions) but I would prefer to treat others how I would like to be treated
 
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