Practicing my photography but venue tog had a moan at me :(

[barneyrubble]

It would not be if I stood on the path outside of your property and took photographs - how would you feel then.

The point is if you had asked the organisors they would have probably said yes and then you would have been in a stronger position when the official photographer approached you.

I am not sure about the public park argument. Councils can rent parks out and during that period the park is not deemed public in some instances.

stew

But that's not what you said:

To those who think its ok to just shoot away how would you feel if I walked into your garden and started taking photographs of your garden or if fact of you.

stew

 

[artona]

No barney, I have developed my point and added to it

 

[gumbo-67]

My point that I dont seem to have made clear (sorry) would you go to an army base stand on the rd take pics then be so suprised at the outcdome that you would post on TP complaining about it?

My point to drive it home is.. whats the problem? this is what can happen at events..surely we all know that? if theres an official tog they will become defensive.. why be suprised let alone start a debate about it... its what happens.. its what could happen between now and forever if you turn up at any event unannounced and start taking pics... right or wrong thats the way it is

thanks for explaining that for me i can be thick sometimes...but then in 18 years i have only once had a problem taking pic's on or off camp so a bit confused

 

[ColinB147]

You try walking around badminton or burghley with a top flight slr and a big lens and see how long it is before you are asked what you are doing

Never been to either but I spent a day at Hickstead with SLRs and 2 big lenses in full view of pros and no-one said anything. Same at Wimbledon and I believe Lords cricket ground has a similar policy. Pro football grounds, on the other hand...

 

[blue max]

I wonder if the 'official' photographer could produce evidence of her entitlement?

In any event, I think I would explain that this arrangement was not public knowledge and if it was against any imposed rule, an official would be along in due course to explain it to me.

I do find that kind of bullying a bit irritating.

Graham

 

[dod]

The only reason the official togs get frustrated/annoyed/upset is because they're scared their income potential is being reduced. Perfectly understandable especially when you take into account some will have paid for the sole rights.

However, trying to stop individuals taking photos of thier friends/family members at an event is pretty much impossible to stop, in fact I wouldn't even try. All it does is isolate a potential customer. I would ask the organisers to speak to somone if I suspected they were doing it commercially though.

Beyond that I've lost count of the number of times I've helped someone out with settings, given them some tips, making sure at the same time they get a business card. As often as not you find they're the ones who actually buy an image and send a thank you email.

 

[barneyrubble]

No barney, I have developed my point and added to it

Well, taking that point you'd be no worse than the councils who are coming round to photograph the poutside of everyone's houses to rip us off for more council tax, or to check if we've got a nice view....

 

[Ross2]

i personally would always approach the organisers of the event and explain your taking photos for your use only if you know there is an official tog. (some people do get funny when seeing SLR camera and pro lenses coming out)

As above threads mention it only organisers of the event that can or cant tell you to do things.

The conversion usually ends is "as long as your not selling as we have an official tog" (Thats my example i've come across on Endurance Events)

However most motorsports events i attend if there is an official tog it just means people know of one place they can definaltey for pictures. There usually far more pro tog out there happily snapping away.

Really my feelings are that there so many different points photos can be taken from it the luck of the draw being in the right place right time to get that capture someone wants to buy.

 

[mid_gen]

1) Pros are understandably touchy about potential damage to their revenues
2) Amateurs get understandably royally ****ed off with pros and their contracts that stop them enjoying their hobby/recording their personal and family experiences

A little common sense and god forbid a reasonable face-to-face conversation between the pro and amateur in question to establish that the amateur isn't going to be selling images or making them publicly available to all and sundry for free should be the sensible compromise so everyone can get on and enjoy themselves/earn their crust! Is it so hard?

 

[artona]

Well, taking that point you'd be no worse than the councils who are coming round to photograph the poutside of everyone's houses to rip us off for more council tax, or to check if we've got a nice view....

or photographers who see it as their right to just walk up and start taking photographs at organised events without asking permission

 

[shooter]

As some have said there are many different ways of looking at this and i doubt people will ever agree on every point, as for me i shot a local fashion show in the town centre recently just for fun but to avoid any potential problems with the pro's i just emailed the event organisers the day before to see what the rules were. As it turns out it was in a public place so there were no issues to contend with although the guy from the local press(i think) did throw me a strange look now and then.
I know it's not always possible to do this but it has saved me a lot of potential grief in the past.

 

[Byker28i]

On the flip side of all this, I once had the advantage of a marshall at Brands thinking I was the pro and encouraging me to stand inside the wire, behind the tyres alongside him.

 

[jerry12953]

Just to put my oar in, I'd be surprised if the "pro" had any right to stop you taking pictures. There was nothing in the T&C's to suggest otherwise.

If it had been me, I'd have been a bit peed off, but if I was REALLY peed off, depending on the pro's attitude, or if I'd got outof bed the wrong side, I'd have found the organisers and checked it out.

Amateurs can't be expected to get permission in advance for every little event they want to take pictures of.

 

[KelV6]

While I myself consider myself the 'official tog' for a particular motor racing series, other togs do wander around the paddock selling their pics to whom I would consider my customers. Now I used to worry and may have been tempted to say something, but I am confident enough with my relationship with the racers that I let the other togs get on with it.
I no longer sell photos in the paddock, they come looking for me.


The event photographer, in this case that we have discussed, needs to have faith in what they are doing and not to feel threatened.

 

[adsayer]

On the flip side of all this, I once had the advantage of a marshall at Brands thinking I was the pro and encouraging me to stand inside the wire, behind the tyres alongside him.

not an official tog for an event...? Wear a hi-vis, it does the lying for you so you don't have to

 

[treeman]

I may have missed something here, but this was in a public park with no fencing or restricted access and no admission charge. So it's unlikely the council rented out the entire ground to a Private event. It sound like the event organisers would have no jurisdiction whatsoever about wether someone stands in the public park taking pictures. Personally If I were told I was paying for exclusive photographer rights, I'd want to be sure it was held on private land.

 

[Kerioak]

If Yv and I had stopped to have a go at everyone with cameras when we did the recent horse show we would not have managed to get any pictures ourselves - which maybe why it was financially not worth doing!

 

[Cobra]

Looks as though some pro togs are getting as defensive over equestrian events
as they are weddings.

Wedding is slightly different though You need this, this and this Oh and this, plus this
to even stand a chance...............

Equestrian events
Have DSLR thats good enough though
( God I have waited so long to use that )


Back to the question in hand

My daughter competes at a "medium level" and I take pictures
of her and her friends IF I can find the official 'tog I will always
tell them that I am only photographing "these numbers"

Normally all is OK

At one major event (VJR) I was photographing a couple of friends,
from outside the arena with a 70-200
the official 'tog was inside the arena with a 24-70.

At one point the official tog ran back to his car produced a white lens
looked me in the eye and placed it on the table

Laugh? I nearly wet myself

Shortly after I was invited into the ring for the prize giving
( my daughter was actually sponsoring that particular class )

My advice Natalie would be, if your just there for
a short while and "practising" if challenged just say that
you have a couple of friends competing and that you are only taking pictures of them.

However I would never condone anyone else including me,
taking images, if there is a "pro 'tog" on site,
with the intention of selling them

 

[treeman]

opps

 

[treeman]

However I would never condone anyone else including me,
taking images, if there is a "pro 'tog" on site,
with the intention of selling them

Does that mean that photographers are the last bastion of morals in the world of business?

What happened to good old "dog eat dog"? "competition is good for the customer" etc?

 

[Hacker]

I don't see what the problem is, the majority of 'smaller' equestrian events have official photographers and I have never encountered anyone trying to undercut me or sell their images. I see plenty of people with compacts, bridge cameras and DSLRs and often end up having a chat to them. I wouldn't dream of insisting on a "No Photography' rule as it is not in my nature and it would be counter productive in the long run - the people with a decent camera probably aren't going to buy your images anyway and if you prevent them from taking pictures they are certainly not going to buy from the "arrogant photographer" and you can be certain they will tell everyone they know. The equestrian world can be very small sometimes.

If I go to a show where my wife is competing I always introduce myself to the official 'tog and explain what I'm doing, it then saves them the time and effort of taking images that will never sell. I have got to know quite a few of them and we often pass work between each other.

In summary? Everything comes down to attitude.

You try walking around badminton or burghley with a top flight slr and a big lens and see how long it is before you are asked what you are doing

stew

Can't agree with that I'm afraid. The pro togs at events like this are too busy and don't have the time or inclination to challenge spectators with cameras. At badminton this year there were hundreds of DSLRs and some serious glass being toted by spectators, one group looked like they were having a camera club outing and their lenses put mine to shame. Not one of the accredited photographers was bothered.

 

[pxl8]

Does that mean that photographers are the last bastion of morals in the world of business?

What happened to good old "dog eat dog"? "competition is good for the customer" etc?

You're right - there should be no official photographer, just a bun fight and baked bean war between un-insured amateurs

 

[KIPAX]

Just to put my oar in, I'd be surprised if the "pro" had any right to stop you taking pictures. .

I would 100% agree with that.. its the photographers job to take pictures.. its up to the organisors to steward the event.. if the official tog aint happy he should take it up with the organisors who should then take the appropriate action..

 

[Marc]

I don't see what the problem is, the majority of 'smaller' equestrian events have official photographers and I have never encountered anyone trying to undercut me or sell their images. I see plenty of people with compacts, bridge cameras and DSLRs and often end up having a chat to them. I wouldn't dream of insisting on a "No Photography' rule as it is not in my nature and it would be counter productive in the long run - the people with a decent camera probably aren't going to buy your images anyway and if you prevent them from taking pictures they are certainly not going to buy from the "arrogant photographer" and you can be certain they will tell everyone they know. The equestrian world can be very small sometimes.

If I go to a show where my wife is competing I always introduce myself to the official 'tog and explain what I'm doing, it then saves them the time and effort of taking images that will never sell. I have got to know quite a few of them and we often pass work between each other.

In summary? Everything comes down to attitude.




Can't agree with that I'm afraid. The pro togs at events like this are too busy and don't have the time or inclination to challenge spectators with cameras. At badminton this year there were hundreds of DSLRs and some serious glass being toted by spectators, one group looked like they were having a camera club outing and their lenses put mine to shame. Not one of the accredited photographers was bothered.

Spot on Colin. Although I remember last year being official tog at a polo tournament and some bloke with a D3 and big lens turned up and started taking photos. He even ended up getting some work for the club!! :nono:

As for Badminton, I was there a couple of years ago and you couldn't move for DSLRs and big lenses. I have been to many equestrian events, large and small, and there have been no photography restrictions at any of them.

 

[gingerjon]

Amateurs can't be expected to get permission in advance for every little event they want to take pictures of.

I always but always either phone in advance or find a marshall to speak to - more to find out if there's any places I shouldn't be standing but also to check that everyone's okay with me being there.

And, as anyone whose seen my piccies will confirm, I am a complete and total amateur

 

[treeman]

and baked bean war between un-insured amateurs

I never mentioned amateurs or un-insured photographers!

Seriously, why is it not just considered "fair competition"?

I used to do this 20 years ago, and don't ever remember having these issues, maybe times have changed.

 

[KIPAX]

Seriously, why is it not just considered "fair competition"?

because many event photographers pay to be at an event and be the only photographer.. or they do some sort of deal wiht the organisors. so yeagh i guess it has changed

 

[susie]

I never mentioned amateurs or un-insured photographers!

Seriously, why is it not just considered "fair competition"?

I used to do this 20 years ago, and don't ever remember having these issues, maybe times have changed.

It may be that the official photographer has paid to be there :shrug:

I know when I went to a polo club last year I had a quick chat to the official photographer as I went past him (without being obvious letting him know I was not going to be trying to sell anything ) on my way back later we chatted again and I ended up second shooting for him at a big tournament the following week. Other times I was at shows getting pictures of friends with no problems and got on well with whoever was there, I think it all depends on the individual who is covering the event.

 

[neil_g]

i went to a small equestrian event near basingstoke a month or two back with the girlfriend, i had the camera in the car but didnt take it out.

after looking at the official shots for sale on a stand i concidered giving them a run for their money.. washed out, wonky, heads chopped off..

but again it was free entry for spectators and there was nothing stating photography wasnt allowed on the event rules. but then the girlfriends ex horsey teacher was the event organiser so might of gotten away with it.. maybe.. lol

 

[fastworldimages]

I would 100% agree with that.. its the photographers job to take pictures.. its up to the organisors to steward the event.. if the official tog aint happy he should take it up with the organisors who should then take the appropriate action..

What i do when people come into the booth at work to take pics and are not allowed (those free crappy websites) 1 call to the event promoter/tech crew/door staff, and they are turfed out.

 

[KIPAX]

What i do when people come into the booth at work to take pics and are not allowed (those free crappy websites) 1 call to the event promoter/tech crew/door staff, and they are turfed out.

I am guessing we would need to know what you do.. where you work to make any sense of that one mate

 

[fastworldimages]

I am guessing we would need to know what you do.. where you work to make any sense of that one mate

I work in nightclubs. Most events where I work im the only photographer with AAA passes as the guys hiring me want exclusivity on the pics. So no one else is allowed in, they still talk crap and get in from time to time, giving the 'yeah someone said it was ok' when i know its not.

Main reason I will get them thrown out asap is that most dont behave very well, we have had emails/complaints made before about photographers pushing djs/djs partners/managers out of the way. When im meant to be the only one in there whos neck is on the line if someone complains?

 

[Natalie_B]

Thanks guys, a very interesting conversation

I agree that maybe i should have approached the pro tog 1st BUT there was no tog in sight when i arrived so didnt think much more of it.
I was not there to sell photos, merely to practice and to be honest, i was using my D60 and kit lens so not a major DSLR for her to worry about.

As for the big events, i have walked round badminton with an SLR and lenses and had no problems whatsoeve, much the same at flat racing and p2p's

I dont understand what the world would be coming to if normal togs werent allowed to take photos at such events - to be perfectly honest, if i went to an event with my horses where photography was banned, i would probably go elsewhere !!!

But i agree, next time i shall say i am there to photograph my friend

 

[theMusicMan]

It does not matter what her shots were like, if she has an exclusive contract with the venue then you should not have been there.

You often find that events have their own "exclusive" tog, contracts are in place to make sure of it and it it often a condition of entry that you are not to take pics. (I remember there was a dog show with the same question on here last year)

Sorry, but if she has such a contract she is perfectly entitled to ask you to leave.

Not too sure about that Ali...? Sure, she may have an exclusivity contract to locate herself ringside per sé, or within the fence, and to sell prints, but surely not to take photos. What about those who are there themselves... they can take shots of what they like.

I'd also say that unless the OP was ringside, she she absolutely has no right whatsoever to ask him/her or anyone to leave, that's bang out of order.

 

[Grayman]

....yet when Mr overpaidponce takes a penalty....

I have nothing else to add to this thread...but no truer statement than that!!
Made me laugh hahaha

 

[fracster]

I have nothing else to add to this thread...but no truer statement than that!!
Made me laugh hahaha

Thank you kind Sir............A little amusement helps the thread along.......

 

[dod]

Couldn't help laughing when I got an email in tonight from someone looking for pics for a feature going into a very large and prestigous national magazine. This bit was in the preamble emails I wonder if they'll let me advertise for free if I tell everyone they let me.

This is one of the reasons why the pro's prefer to have the photography rights to an event

non-professional ones are actually preferable if they're good, as it means
we won't have to pay to print them!

 

[artona]

Thanks guys, a very interesting conversation

I agree that maybe i should have approached the pro tog 1st BUT there was no tog in sight when i arrived so didnt think much more of it.
I was not there to sell photos, merely to practice and to be honest, i was using my D60 and kit lens so not a major DSLR for her to worry about.

As for the big events, i have walked round badminton with an SLR and lenses and had no problems whatsoeve, much the same at flat racing and p2p's

I dont understand what the world would be coming to if normal togs werent allowed to take photos at such events - to be perfectly honest, if i went to an event with my horses where photography was banned, i would probably go elsewhere !!!

But i agree, next time i shall say i am there to photograph my friend

Just tell the truth Natalie, say you are practising. If you are looking to become an event photographer say so, it might lead to work. And its not the official photographer you need, speak to the organisers, ITS THEIR EVENT.........

Sstew

 

[Arkady]

Jeez...you're all so nice...
If she'd spoken like that to me after I'd explained politely in the way you did, I'd have kicked her in the fanny and stamped on her lenses...

I have been accused of having a very low idiot-tolerance threshold though...

 

[Naboo32]

because many event photographers pay to be at an event and be the only photographer.. or they do some sort of deal wiht the organisors. so yeagh i guess it has changed

Undoubtedly true, but I have to say (as an amateur tog who's never been to such and event), I wouldn't have known that :shrug: and I guess that the OP wouldn't either.

I can see both sides of this arguement, but I do feel that whilst it may be a bit naive of amateur togs to try and do some of the things that they do, it's equally naive of the event pros to expect those same amateurs to know the ins and outs and etiquette of the world of professional photography :shrug:. It's just like many other professions, if you work in it yourself, you get to know a lot of things that those outside the industry will have no way of knowing.

Like most problems in life, it boils down to poor communication . Worst of all, it throws up barriers between amateur and pro photographers and creates added rivalry. Given the massive difference in the numbers of people in each of these catagories and the way in which the DSLR revolution has empowered people, I think that prima donna behaviour such as the OP described is only going to precipitate the end of the 'professional photographer' as we know it.

Just like cobblers, chimney sweeps and milkmen are all but obsolete; technology is threating to do the same those who make their living from taking high quality, artistic/journalistic images . They may not disappear altogehter, but then neither have chimney sweeps, cobblers, or milkmen !

:| Sorry, I think that I might have got a bit carried away there.