Practicing my photography but venue tog had a moan at me :(

Natalie_B

Natalie_B

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I went along to a local horse show last weekend to get some practice in at the showjumping ring. I parked in the car park next to the ring and was actually perfectly placed to get 2 jumps photographed so i snapped away ...... no pro togger in sight.
10 minutes later she came over to me and had a real moan that i shouldnt be there as she was the only photographer allowed to be ther (even though she had 4 rings to cover and only her with a camera anyway ??) and she would be making her way over to shoot the showjumping after her cup of tea :eek:

I politely explained that I was not selling shots as she was and was just practicing to work my new camera and not treading on her toes at all, but she seemed really riled :bang: I decided not to get upset and shrug it off, took a few more snaps before the rain came then decided to leave it.

What would you have done ? It made me feel really uncomfortable when she kept glaring at me after she got funny with me :(

(As a by the way, Ive just come across her website - she was shooting towards the sun & shooting the jumps with poor backgrounds)
 
It does not matter what her shots were like, if she has an exclusive contract with the venue then you should not have been there.

You often find that events have their own "exclusive" tog, contracts are in place to make sure of it and it it often a condition of entry that you are not to take pics. (I remember there was a dog show with the same question on here last year)

Sorry, but if she has such a contract she is perfectly entitled to ask you to leave.
 
AliB said:
It does not matter what her shots were like, if she has an exclusive contract with the venue then you should not have been there.

You often find that events have their own "exclusive" tog, contracts are in place to make sure of it and it it often a condition of entry that you are not to take pics. (I remember there was a dog show with the same question on here last year)

Sorry, but if she has such a contract she is perfectly entitled to ask you to leave.
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Yessiree............:thumbs:
 
I personally would have gone and checked with the event organisers to see if there was any restriction on taking personal photographs.

If there were'nt (which is likely) as it's almost impossible to stop all the compacts and camera phones, i would have carried on.

If there were then I would have insisted they implemented the rule for everyone at the event rather than just you :D:D:D But that's me.

And Ali, it's not up to the Tog to ask her to leave, she has absolutely no juridstiction on that. She would need to get the event organisers to do it.
 
AliB said:
It does not matter what her shots were like, if she has an exclusive contract with the venue then you should not have been there.

You often find that events have their own "exclusive" tog, contracts are in place to make sure of it and it it often a condition of entry that you are not to take pics. (I remember there was a dog show with the same question on here last year)

Sorry, but if she has such a contract she is perfectly entitled to ask you to leave.
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Sorry but i am confused ... so you're saying that nobody can take pics at all ?
Just because I had a DSLR does not make me any different to joe public with their P&S ! And there were plenty of those there, stood quite near to me in fact, who did not get the same treatment!

Nowhere on the schedule did it say no photos - i was outside the ring and causing no trouble at all so what was the problem.
This was a small show and i very much doubt there was a contract in place at all.
 
Actually I would have thought the venue organisers would be perfectly entitled to ask you not to take photographs, presumably showing you where they had stated the restrictions on photography on your ticket or other. I would not recommend taking the word of a photographer that they have an exclusive contract, especially as the venue organiser may be more sympathetic if you explain it is for personal use.

Faced with a situation like that I always ask to be directed to someone in authority so I can discuss the matter with them. You might be surprised how often the tog backs down at that stage and goes off muttering.

(Edit: Bah, hate it when I end up posting the same thing as someone else at the same time)
 
:D:D:D:D

Natalie, at the end of the day the event organisers are the only one's who can tell you you are or are not able to take photos. Not some random tog who may or may not have a contract with them.
 
barneyrubble said:
And Ali, it's not up to the Tog to ask her to leave, she has absolutely no juridstiction on that. She would need to get the event organisers to do it.
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You are quite right on that on Barney, comes under the laws on trespass. :D
 
AliB said:
It does not matter what her shots were like, if she has an exclusive contract with the venue then you should not have been there.

You often find that events have their own "exclusive" tog, contracts are in place to make sure of it and it it often a condition of entry that you are not to take pics. (I remember there was a dog show with the same question on here last year)

Sorry, but if she has such a contract she is perfectly entitled to ask you to leave.
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I am sorry but unless the ticket of entry says ‘no photographs’ then anyone can take photos.
I bet there were people who were watching and taking photo, some with cameras and some with their phone you will not stop everyone from taking photos.
 
Sorry, but if she has such a contract she is perfectly entitled to ask you to leave
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So she can go around the event asking every single spectator with a camera to leave? Surely it's up to the event organisers to make it it clear that no photography is allowed?
 
Natalie_B said:
Sorry but i am confused ... so you're saying that nobody can take pics at all ?
Just because I had a DSLR does not make me any different to joe public with their P&S ! And there were plenty of those there, stood quite near to me in fact, who did not get the same treatment!

Nowhere on the schedule did it say no photos - i was outside the ring and causing no trouble at all so what was the problem.
This was a small show and i very much doubt there was a contract in place at all.
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1. you don't know if there was/was not a contract.
2. If you have a DSLR it makes you capable of taking the standard of shot necessary to sell.
3. It depends of what is in the contract but yes, it could mean nobody can take pics at all, just try getting into concert venues with a camera and see what happens. lol It's exactly the same conditions.
4. The conditions of entry don't have to be on the ticket, just publically available. See any post on photographing Canary Wharf for that one.
 
Whilst I agree with AliB in that she had an "exclusive" on the venue, and at the risk of starting a bit of a tizzy here, I have to wonder whether she would have been quite as "arsey" if you'd had a small compact or a mobile phone.

It's all very well these places having rules about event photographers, but unless they turn away everyone with a camera it's all a bit unfair really.

I would probably have done the same as the OP - Explained that they were hobby shots only, and carried on quietly.
 
But the op did not have a camera phone or a P&S,so that point is irrelevant.
 
If she had a contract stating she was to be the only photographer there she should be carrying it with her.

It would not take up much room and would avoid any hassle.

If she did'nt have it on her I would of suggested she go and find it.
 
I reckon the pro tog should grow up. I did an equestrian event last week on private property as a second shooter. The primary tog has an 'exclusive' agreement. One family member with an SLR was practically stood on mine and primary tog's toes getting photos of his darling daughter.

What's the point in getting stressed we had a laugh about it... He was shooting in Auto... Maybe he thought his shots would be like ours if he stood where we stood?!
 
Chaz Photos said:
I am sorry but unless the ticket of entry says ‘no photographs’ then anyone can take photos.
I bet there were people who were watching and taking photo, some with cameras and some with their phone you will not stop everyone from taking photos.
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As long as the ticket says "Please see conditions of entry" it does not have to at all. All they have to be is publically available ie on a website or available to read, on request, at the venue.
 
They do not need a sign saying whether people can take photographs or not. Marks and Spencer do not need a sign above their door saying "No setting up a market stall in our shop"

It does all depend, as people have said on the deal / contract but as a professional I have always asked if I am allowed to take photographs if its an organised event. To those who think its ok to just shoot away how would you feel if I walked into your garden and started taking photographs of your garden or if fact of you.

stew
 
fracster said:
But the op did not have a camera phone or a P&S,so that point is irrelevant.
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Sorry but it's not. Personal photography is either allowed or not. Now which was it? No-one here knows. The kit you have is completely irrelevant, it's the purpose of the end product that will cause the problem.

So to be honest this is yet another irrelevant argument that will get nobody anywhere.
 
AliB said:
As long as the ticket says "Please see conditions of entry" it does not have to at all. All they have to be is publically available ie on a website or available to read, on request, at the venue.
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Actually, the conditions of entry have to be visible before entry otherwise they are conditions imposed after the fact.



Steve.
 
sounds very much to me like a slighty overprotective event photographer and a possible lack of communication.

Clearly you were unaware of the possibility of no photography at the event, and that would have been at the organisers fault. There should have been notices and it made known.

If the event photographer was that worried they should have gone to the event organisers to seek a resolution. The fact they didn't makes me wonder if they were over paranoid and trying thier luck, who knows.

Moral of the stary, if in doubt, ask the organisers.
 
AliB said:
As long as the ticket says "Please see conditions of entry" it does not have to at all. All they have to be is publically available ie on a website or available to read, on request, at the venue.
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You know what I am saying T&C of entry where ever writen
 
I can see both sides. There's recently been a couple of outfits just turning up at 10k, marathons, etc. and following the "official" tog around and then leafletting the car park, spamming forums, etc. and selling digital images at 99p a pop.

As the official tog has to pay a pretty penny to the race for the rights seeing some bloke turn up and do this is going to get their back up. Now I know the op wasn't doing anything like that but equally the people that are will, at the time, say they're not. At one event there were two "pirate" outfits who spent most of the time removing each others leaflets from car windscreens :lol:

I've just about given up covering these events as a result, it's a lot of work for what is essentially providing a free gallery for the runners. I'd make more if I could charge a 1p viewing fee per image and perhaps the business model the "official" togs are using does need to change.
 
Wow, this is turning into more of a discussion than i expected
It is very different to a theatre show where i wouldnt dream of it - this was a small open show at a local park. No specific rules on the schedule and no entry fee for going to watch. The only rules stated (other than horse related ones) were as follows:

- Neither the club or any persons acting on its behalf will accept liability for any loss, damage or illness to ponies, horses, riders, spectators or any person.
- Dogs must be held on a leash at all times.
- All vehicles are parked at the owners risk.

Not even badminton / burghley have a rule that nobody can take photographs !!
 
Surely any photographer who has had a camera for more than 5 minutes knows what might (may/possibly) happen if you just turn up at an organised event and start snapping.. I mean come on... really ?

Do you know what might happen if you stand outside an army base taking pics?

Do you know what might happen if you hide in the bushes taking pics of children in the park?

There are many more examples of situations that dont have any signs or written rules.. but unless your very nieve then you surely know whats what.

You can argue until your blue in the face as to whats right or wrong.. my point is.. how can you be even the slightest bit suprise when it happens? :)
 
KIPAX said:
Surely any photographer who has had a camera for more than 5 minutes knows what might (may/possibly) happen if you just turn up at an organised event and start snapping.. I mean come on... really ?

Do you know what might happen if you stand outside an army base taking pics?

Do you know what might happen if you hide in the bushes taking pics of children in the park?

There are many more examples of situations that dont have any signs or written rules.. but unless your very nieve then you surely know whats what.

You can argue until your blue in the face as to whats right or wrong.. my point is.. how can you be even the slightest bit suprise when it happens? :)
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not quite sure of the relevance of all this - taking photos of children from bushes for one?

a free event in a public place? - very different from an army base or even a paying entry event. Would an event tog actually make any revenue at this type of event?

Hugh

eta although I realise the event organisers may of made it a private event as part of their conditions of hire from the council or whoever
 
pxl8 said:
I can see both sides. There's recently been a couple of outfits just turning up at 10k, marathons, etc. and following the "official" tog around and then leafletting the car park, spamming forums, etc. and selling digital images at 99p a pop.

As the official tog has to pay a pretty penny to the race for the rights seeing some bloke turn up and do this is going to get their back up. Now I know the op wasn't doing anything like that but equally the people that are will, at the time, say they're not. At one event there were two "pirate" outfits who spent most of the time removing each others leaflets from car windscreens :lol:

I've just about given up covering these events as a result, it's a lot of work for what is essentially providing a free gallery for the runners. I'd make more if I could charge a 1p viewing fee per image and perhaps the business model the "official" togs are using does need to change.
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Whilst understanding everything you have written here and it's all very valid stuff, at what point should the event organisers be stopping people taking photos? Camera Phone, Compact, Bridge, Low end DSLR, Pro DSLR?

Where does the line get drawn, because they're not going to be able to stop everyone, and they have better things to do than police this all the time.
 
KIPAX said:
Surely any photographer who has had a camera for more than 5 minutes knows what might (may/possibly) happen if you just turn up at an organised event and start snapping.. I mean come on... really ?

Do you know what might happen if you stand outside an army base taking pics?

Do you know what might happen if you hide in the bushes taking pics of children in the park?

There are many more examples of situations that dont have any signs or written rules.. but unless your very nieve then you surely know whats what.

You can argue until your blue in the face as to whats right or wrong.. my point is.. how can you be even the slightest bit suprise when it happens? :)
Click to expand...


There are a few thing that could happen here but would love to know what you mean.
 
KIPAX said:
Surely any photographer who has had a camera for more than 5 minutes knows what might (may/possibly) happen if you just turn up at an organised event and start snapping.. I mean come on... really ?
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Sorry, but many organised events encourage snappers.

Take for example any Motorsport. It's organised, there are pros there, you pay to go in, and as long as you are not selling your images everything is fine.
 
barneyrubble said:
Whilst understanding everything you have written here and it's all very valid stuff, at what point should the event organisers be stopping people taking photos? Camera Phone, Compact, Bridge, Low end DSLR, Pro DSLR?

Where does the line get drawn, because they're not going to be able to stop everyone, and they have better things to do than police this all the time.
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Take Old Trafford as an example,photography is not allowed,yet when Mr overpaidponce takes a penalty,the stadium is awash with flashes.These must be compacts,try getting a DSLR through security...........:D

You raise a valid point though,but bear in mind that some events togs spend months if not years getting exclusivity,so you can understand thier ire if somebody turns up with a dslr? Now I ain`t saying it is right or wrong,just seeing things from the otherside........:)
 
Natalie_B said:
Yes, that would be trespass though, and this was at a local park !
Quite different
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It would not be if I stood on the path outside of your property and took photographs - how would you feel then.

The point is if you had asked the organisors they would have probably said yes and then you would have been in a stronger position when the official photographer approached you.

I am not sure about the public park argument. Councils can rent parks out and during that period the park is not deemed public in some instances.

stew
 
gumbo-67 said:
There are a few thing that could happen here but would love to know what you mean.
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My point that I dont seem to have made clear (sorry) would you go to an army base stand on the rd take pics then be so suprised at the outcdome that you would post on TP complaining about it?

My point to drive it home is.. whats the problem? this is what can happen at events..surely we all know that? if theres an official tog they will become defensive.. why be suprised let alone start a debate about it... its what happens.. its what could happen between now and forever if you turn up at any event unannounced and start taking pics... right or wrong thats the way it is :)
 
There are often friends/ families of competitors at shows taking photos of the person they know, would this not be classed as the same thing and consequently allow togs to ask them to leave/ stop taking photos too? I've been to a lot of local shows where there has been an event photographer and used my SLR thus possibly looking as though I was a 'professional' photograher, but as I say I'm sure people who are exclusively taking photos of people they know might sometimes be using such equipment too. I've not got the equipment or time and knowledge to print my photos to sell, but if I was doing this I'd not be shooting without permission or if there was another photographer there, but I don't see the problem with just taking photos for practice. Surely it's the same as taking photos at a big event like Badminton as anyone can attend and it'd be very difficlt to stop people taking photos even if they wanted to :thinking:
 
fracster said:
Take Old Trafford as an example,photography is not allowed,yet when Mr overpaidponce takes a penalty,the stadium is awash with flashes.These must be compacts,try getting a DSLR through security...........:D

You raise a valid point though,but bear in mind that some events togs spend months if not years getting exclusivity,so you can understand thier ire if somebody turns up with a dslr? Now I ain`t saying it is right or wrong,just seeing things from the otherside........:)
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Its all seen as intent. If someone stands there with a phone camera or p&s it is seen that the photograph is more than likely for their own use but if a photographer stands there with some serious bits of kit then a completely new ball game comes into play. You try walking around badminton or burghley with a top flight slr and a big lens and see how long it is before you are asked what you are doing

stew
 
There are often friends/ families of competitors at shows taking photos of the person they know, would this not be classed as the same thing and consequently allow togs to ask them to leave/ stop taking photos too? I've been to a lot of local shows where there has been an event photographer and used my SLR thus possibly looking as though I was a 'professional' photograher, but as I say I'm sure people who are exclusively taking photos of people they know might sometimes be using such equipment too. I've not got the equipment or time and knowledge to print my photos to sell, but if I was doing this I'd not be shooting without permission or if there was another photographer there, but I don't see the problem with just taking photos for practice. Surely it's the same as taking photos at a big event like Badminton as anyone can attend and it'd be very difficlt to stop people taking photos even if they wanted to :thinking:
 
KIPAX said:
Surely any photographer who has had a camera for more than 5 minutes knows what might (may/possibly) happen if you just turn up at an organised event and start snapping.. I mean come on... really ?

Do you know what might happen if you stand outside an army base taking pics?

Do you know what might happen if you hide in the bushes taking pics of children in the park?

There are many more examples of situations that dont have any signs or written rules.. but unless your very nieve then you surely know whats what.

You can argue until your blue in the face as to whats right or wrong.. my point is.. how can you be even the slightest bit suprise when it happens? :)
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I think you lost your perspective a bit. If it wasn't mentioned on the T&C of the event (which if hired from the council can be a private place ON public ground), then anybody is free to take photographs. That's called law.

There are 2 arguments here:

1) The rudeness of the "official" photographer.
2) The bad communication from the event organiser about photogrpahy

Nothing of your post had anything to to with either. There is no such thing as written/unwritten rules apart from the law.
 
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