Power sockets in bathrooms

JonathanRyan

JonathanRyan

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Riddle me this TP-fans......

In the UK it's more or less illegal to fit power sockets in bathrooms (there are some exemptions if it's really big and the socket is a long way from water). That's so people don't plug in hairdryers etc and kill themselves due to water + electricity making bang.

In France (and most other countries I've visited) it's not. In fact I believe that in France there's a minimum number of power sockets in a bathroom for new builds.

Why?

Do our continental cousins simply not care how many people die? Are their Micky Mouse plugs really safer than ours? Or are we totally over cautious about this and the danger is tiny anyway?
 
240-volt v 110-volt?

Apparently not :oops: :$
 
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JonathanRyan said:
Most/all of Europe is on 230v. France certainly is - and so are we since they changed it several years ago ;)
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Yep just spotted that, haven't been to France for donkey's years ... in fact since I paid for a Coca-Cola on the Champs Elysee! :eek:
 
I had a sparky in to replace our old Mira electric shower, the shower location was going to be on a different wall as part of bathroom refurbishment, said the law had changed around 2008 and RCD's now must be fitted for bathroom electrics, even downlighters for ceiling had to have RCD. Will use the combi for the shower now on advice from plumber and stick to standard light. Would have added a extra 500 quid to my bill.

Do these European places use RCD's hence electrics in bathroom.
 
frank said:
Do these European places use RCD's hence electrics in bathroom.
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Looks like it ... I hate people posting questions that make me want to find the answer!
 
frank said:
Do these European places use RCD's hence electrics in bathroom.
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I think so but these have been a requirement for new wiring in the UK for quite a while.

But an RCD protects against Live-Earth shorts. They won't protect you against Live-Neutral shorts. I.e. you can still die from getting electrocuted if there's an RCD in place. Even if it works....
 
In Germany there has always been a standard 220v socket next to a normal light switch (not a string pull type) in all the bathrooms I've had.
However electrical standards are pretty poor, or poorly followed here.
 
JonathanRyan said:
They won't protect you against Live-Neutral shorts. I.e. you can still die from getting electrocuted if there's an RCD in place. Even if it works....
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Well I've learned something today :thumbs:
 
The Schneider Electric Publication called "Cahiers Techniques" Publication No. ECT 114 - Residual Current Devices in LV, is an excellent study material on the subject.







:)
 
andyscott said:
Ah medical research must be wrong
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When taken correctly, ibuprofen is an incredibly effective drug.
Obtaining it cheaply overseas doesn't alter that.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Well life expectancy in Spain is higher than in the UK, so their painkillers really aren't having a detrimental effect are they.
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Yeah it's not it reduces life by x number of years, an mi or stroke will kill you pdq, high dose NSAIDs are bad for you
 
viv1969 said:
When taken correctly, ibuprofen is an incredibly effective drug.
Obtaining it cheaply overseas doesn't alter that.
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But in high doses such 600mg the risk of MI or stroke is increased, let alone ACute kidney injury
 
andyscott said:
But in high doses such 600mg the risk of MI or stroke is increased, let alone ACute kidney injury
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No...not when taken as advised its not.
 
viv1969 said:
No...not when taken as advised its not.
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Well yes it is, even when advised, the risks must be spelled out ;) and also increases the risk of developing AF etc.

Any prescriber worth their salt should discuss these risks.
 
andyscott said:
Well yes it is, even when advised, the risks must be spelled out ;) and also increases the risk of developing AF etc.

Any prescriber worth their salt should discuss these risks.
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And who suggested they didn't?
Sourcing the drugs from a cheaper legitimate market doesn't suddenly make them poor drugs.
 
"May", being the key word.
Are there drugs that don't or haven't proved detrimental in some way to some people?
 
In short UK regs are different to each European country. although some standardisation has been implemented such as cable core colours and our "change" to 230v (in reality it's still 240v as we didn't make any changes to power generation) standardising everything across the EU would involve massive changes and costs.

Electric sockets in bathrooms is a daft idea unless they are far enough away so portable appliances cannot come into contact with water. UK regs ensure there is enough distance so you can't do it unless you do something like add an extension lead or install an 'illegal' socket point. You only have to do a quick google to find the horror stories like 'mum and son killed by electric heater dropped in bath' or '3 children killed by hairdryer dropped in bath'. On the contingent they have different goes so 50cm the bath is ok. If your portable appliance has a lead longer than 50cm it could be interesting.

Do you remember when there was a time when you had to fit a plug to a new appliance? Of course the quality of wiring the plug varied greatly depending on each persons wiring and some were extremely unsafe. The solution was a change to the law to have moulded plugs as new. It's probably saved a few lives.

On another note I visited a wildlife park in Spain, the electric fence around the bear enclosure was within touching reach of the public. In the UK this would not be possible as there would be safe area set up with a second fence. Maybe the continent have a more relaxed view on H&S or don't put as much value on life, it all depends on which way you see it.
 
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rob-nikon said:
On another note I visited a wildlife park in Spain, the electric fence around the bear enclosure was within touching reach of the public.
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And they bloody well hurt as I found out once when I forgot to turn one off before entering an enclosure
 
For some reason some berk installed a 13 amp electric socket in my bathroom ceiling within a couple of feet of a shower. They plugged their Xmas lights into it.
 
srichards said:
For some reason some berk installed a 13 amp electric socket in my bathroom ceiling within a couple of feet of a shower. They plugged their Xmas lights into it.
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I never understand why we have our excellent electrical regs yet don't have a currently valid periodic inspection as a compulsory requirement to sell a property.
 
viv1969 said:
"May", being the key word.
Are there drugs that don't or haven't proved detrimental in some way to some people?
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Sorry but numerous studies, have proven that its a definite increase in risk.
 
HuntingMartians said:
That would be a horrendous idea.
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It all depends which way you see it and if you have bought a house with 'interesting' wiring that you have to pay extra to put right. It's easy to hide dangerous wiring and electrical issues, many home buyer surveys don't pick up these issues.

It amazes me what people do with electrics. Perhaps it would just be easier to ensure electrical parts like cabling can only be purchased by qualified persons, exactly like they do with gas fittings.
 
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andyscott said:
But in high doses such 600mg the risk of MI or stroke is increased, let alone ACute kidney injury
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The maximum safe dose (assuming no contraindications) is 3.2 g in any 24 hrs. Or30-40 mg/kg in children. Assuming @Ricardodaforce is neither a child and probably weighs a little more then 20kg he's pretty safe
 
JonathanRyan said:
But an RCD protects against Live-Earth shorts. They won't protect you against Live-Neutral shorts. I.e. you can still die from getting electrocuted if there's an RCD in place. Even if it works....
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Whilst you are strictly speaking correct it is a very unlikely situation, an RCD is a residual current device, it detects the difference between the current on the live and the current on the neutral and there should be no difference, they are also very sensitive, about 30mA or less IIRC. If you are stood on a very good insulator and you hold the live and neutral then you will get a shock and the RCD may not trip but this situation is very unlikely. It is very probable that even if you stuck a nail in the live and neutral of a socket and got hold of them there would be sufficient leakage to ground to trip the RCD.

Far more likely is either moisture getting into a socket and making the back box/screws live or a live wire coming out of a loose connector and making something live. If the earthing regulations are met then either of these situations will have already tripped the RCD before you get anywhere near it.
 
andyscott said:
Sorry but numerous studies, have proven that its a definite increase in risk.
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Yes, and Thalidomide causes birth defects in babies, but it doesn't stop it being an excellent anti-nausea medication under different circumstances, and a very effective drug treatment for Myeloma.
ALL drugs have side effects, contraindications, possible negative effects for some people, but it doesn't mean they are not good, effective and widely safe medications when taken under advice.
 
rob-nikon said:
I never understand why we have our excellent electrical regs yet don't have a currently valid periodic inspection as a compulsory requirement to sell a property.
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Easy one. Building regs are not retrospective, work must comply with the regs at the time it was done, not the current regs. 50 year old wiring can be said to "need updating" but not be in contravention of what the regs were in 1965 and so not actionable.

As it is there is way too much interference and regulation by the state of what we can do in our own homes anyway. It's not rocket science to install a new circuit back to the consumer unit, but apparently I need approval from LABC to do so (cost ~£400 where I live).
 
rob-nikon said:
In short UK regs are different to each European country. although some standardisation has been implemented such as cable core colours and our "change" to 230v (in reality it's still 240v as we didn't make any changes to power generation) standardising everything across the EU would involve massive changes and costs.

Electric sockets in bathrooms is a daft idea unless they are far enough away so portable appliances cannot come into contact with water. UK regs ensure there is enough distance so you can't do it unless you do something like add an extension lead or install an 'illegal' socket point. You only have to do a quick google to find the horror stories like 'mum and son killed by electric heater dropped in bath' or '3 children killed by hairdryer dropped in bath'. On the contingent they have different goes so 50cm the bath is ok. If your portable appliance has a lead longer than 50cm it could be interesting.
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Thanks. So basically the answer is "because, foreigners"? :D

The sad story of the 3 children in the bath is pretty well known (somewhat ironically I believe they were French visitors to the UK). In fact it's so well known that my guess is that such incidents are very rare. That's good news and could show that the UK regs are well worth having. But a quick Google hasn't found lots of cases of people being electrocuted in French bathrooms. Hence my thought that despite the apparent huge risk this might not be as bad as it looks.

sirch said:
Whilst you are strictly speaking correct it is a very unlikely situation, an RCD is a residual current device, it detects the difference between the current on the live and the current on the neutral and there should be no difference, they are also very sensitive, about 30mA or less IIRC. If you are stood on a very good insulator and you hold the live and neutral then you will get a shock and the RCD may not trip but this situation is very unlikely. It is very probable that even if you stuck a nail in the live and neutral of a socket and got hold of them there would be sufficient leakage to ground to trip the RCD.

Far more likely is either moisture getting into a socket and making the back box/screws live or a live wire coming out of a loose connector and making something live. If the earthing regulations are met then either of these situations will have already tripped the RCD before you get anywhere near it.
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Ah perfect. I kind of knew there was a reason why live-earth short are way more likely then live-neutral but didn't know the reasons.

The only worrying thing is that in Googling around this, I've found that RCDs are about 93% effective.
 
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