Potential Jail for old gun collector

Blank_Canvas said:
There are a lot of myths on firearms / shotguns in books and on the web etc. such as you can't link a shotgun to a shooting at a crime scene.
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That's more or less right, and the police/home office have a lab that does just that.

There are limitations, caused by lack of rifling and by lack of marks on the plastic casings, but they do manage to tie up discharged ammunition with guns some of the time.
And some police forces are now asking SCG holders (they can't make it a requirement) to retain a fired cartridge from each barrel, just in case that gunis later used in a crime, with the idea of matching the striker mark with the gun. I have no idea whether that would actually work or not... Take me as an example, suppose my main clay gun was stolen after 10 years of use and was then used in a crime. That would be about 70,000 discharges, and I'm guessing that the striker would have worn down quite a bit after that amount of use, and would leave a very different mark.
 
Garry Edwards said:
That's more or less right, and the police/home office have a lab that does just that.

There are limitations, caused by lack of rifling and by lack of marks on the plastic casings, but they do manage to tie up discharged ammunition with guns some of the time.
And some police forces are now asking SCG holders (they can't make it a requirement) to retain a fired cartridge from each barrel, just in case that gunis later used in a crime, with the idea of matching the striker mark with the gun. I have no idea whether that would actually work or not... Take me as an example, suppose my main clay gun was stolen after 10 years of use and was then used in a crime. That would be about 70,000 discharges, and I'm guessing that the striker would have worn down quite a bit after that amount of use, and would leave a very different mark.
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so to be clear are you saying they can match a cartridge to a gun (from the mark the striker leaves I'd presume) , or that they can actually match a load to a gun if all they have is the pellets ? - If its the latter I'd be genuinely interested in how
 
Up to a point yes. Like fingerprints they are all slightly different, so they can, and have been doing so since before 1978 when I was a Cadet in what was then the Mets Lab at Lambeth.
But sometimes for whatever reason the marks aren't as distinct as they would like, hence why its not 100%.
 
big soft moose said:
so to be clear are you saying they can match a cartridge to a gun (from the mark the striker leaves I'd presume) , or that they can actually match a load to a gun if all they have is the pellets ? - If its the latter I'd be genuinely interested in how
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They can SOMETIMES match a cartridge to a gun, via the striker marks and sometimes via ejector marks (remember that shotguns tend to get used far more heavily than S.1 fireams and so are far more likely to have worn or sloppy ejectors).
Pellets, I don't know. What I do know though is that whenever they seize shotgun cartridges they disect them, presumably to find out whether the pellets match anything of interest to them.
I don't know, but suspect that this is historical. There was a murder case where the murderer was arrested in possession of his illegal shotgun very quickly and still had unfired cartridges in his pocket. Problem was, they were different to the type of shot recovered from the crime scene. Anyway, a CID type fiddled around with one of the seized cartridges, for no real reason, and found that what was inside the cartridge was very different to what was printed on the outside, the manufacturer had simply made a mistake. Something like No. 7 1/2 on the outside and No. 3 on the inside. This was enough, or at least enough with other evidence, for a conviction.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Anyway, a CID type fiddled around with one of the seized cartridges, for no real reason, and found that what was inside the cartridge was very different to what was printed on the outside, the manufacturer had simply made a mistake. Something like No. 7 1/2 on the outside and No. 3 on the inside. This was enough, or at least enough with other evidence, for a conviction.
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Home load / re-load perhaps?
Thats quite interesting if you think about it, if it is true.
Trying to throw someone off the scent like that.

Just conjecture no basis in fact.
 
big soft moose said:
to be fair that's not a myth - you can't because there's no way of comparing individual striations on the load (even if you recover all the pellets which you probably won't) to the barrel like you could with a bullet from a pistol or rifle.

admittedly if a shooter is stupid enough to leave a spent cartridge at the crime scene forensic might link that to a particular shot gun , or to a particular batch of cartridges but that's not quite the same thing
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Shotguns barrel(s) are smoothbore so there is no rifling which consists of lands and grooves. However, when the barrel(s) are cut off on the shotgun and even filed down there will be microscopic imperfections.

A shotgun cartridge consists of a primer in the base which is surrounded by gunpowder, on top of that is wadding, the spherical or in some case solid shot and then this is closed and crimped. When the firing pin strikes the primer it causes it to explode which in turn ignites the gunpowder which burns and expands creating gases that push the cartridge components out of the barrel(s), the shot, the wadding and the packing leaves.

The imperfections from the end of the swan off barrel(s) will leave station marks on the wad which is normally made of plastic but also other substances.

The wads are recovered from the crime scene, or during the post mortem examination of the victim, so is the shot. It is fairly easy to determine if the gun which has to be recovered has the same striation marks as the wadding. Test shots are first fired into gelatine, the wads or wadding is recovered and compared on a comparison microscope with the those found within the body or at the crime scene.

I spent 20 years in the forensic arena not only photographing crime scenes and recovering forensic and fingerprint evidence but also attending post mortem examinations of the victims. It is possible to find shot at the scene but not every one.

In addition, the average sporting shotgun has a trigger pull of 7.5 pounds, by measuring this it can be determined if the gun went of accidentally or it was fired deliberately.
 
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A bullet fired from a rifle is slightly different, as it spins down the barrel under pressure the lands and groves will transfer to the bullet. Comparisons can be made from firing pin, ejector or magazine marks on the gun. There could also be blood inside the gun barrel or saliva from the victim. Fingerprints and DNA are also possible sources of contact trace evidence.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
The wads are recovered from the crime scene, or during the post mortem examination of the victim, so is the shot. It is fairly easy to determine if the gun which has to be recovered has the same striation marks as the wadding. Test shots are first fired into gelatine, the wads or wadding is recovered and compared on a comparison microscope with the those found within the body or at the crime scene.

.
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interesting - I never realised the wad could be matched in that way

Short of disposing of the gun is there any common way to evade getting caught by that sort of match ? ( To be clear I'm writing a crime novel, not planning the perfect murder ;) )
 
Good luck with your novel. I would be happy to read /review any areas around this and ad realism. Drop me a PM with your contact details if you like.
 
Cobra said:
Home load / re-load perhaps?
Thats quite interesting if you think about it, if it is true.
Trying to throw someone off the scent like that.

Just conjecture no basis in fact.
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No, not home loads, just a manufacturing fault. Can't remember where I read it now, but it's online so will try to find the link
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Good luck with your novel. I would be happy to read /review any areas around this and ad realism. Drop me a PM with your contact details if you like.
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thanks i'll take you up on that when ive got something worth reading
 
Garry Edwards said:
No, not home loads, just a manufacturing fault. Can't remember where I read it now, but it's online so will try to find the link
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Ah Ok just thinking out loud really :)
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Shotguns barrel(s) are smoothbore so there is no rifling which consists of lands and grooves. However, when the barrel(s) are cut off on the shotgun and even filed down there will be microscopic imperfections.

A shotgun cartridge consists of a primer in the base which is surrounded by gunpowder, on top of that is wadding, the spherical or in some case solid shot and then this is closed and crimped. When the firing pin strikes the primer it causes it to explode which in turn ignites the gunpowder which burns and expands creating gases that push the cartridge components out of the barrel(s), the shot, the wadding and the packing leaves.

The imperfections from the end of the swan off barrel(s) will leave station marks on the wad which is normally made of plastic but also other substances.

The wads are recovered from the crime scene, or during the post mortem examination of the victim, so is the shot. It is fairly easy to determine if the gun which has to be recovered has the same striation marks as the wadding. Test shots are first fired into gelatine, the wads or wadding is recovered and compared on a comparison microscope with the those found within the body or at the crime scene.

I spent 20 years in the forensic arena not only photographing crime scenes and recovering forensic and fingerprint evidence but also attending post mortem examinations of the victims. It is possible to find shot at the scene but not every one.

In addition, the average sporting shotgun has a trigger pull of 7.5 pounds, by measuring this it can be determined if the gun went of accidentally or it was fired deliberately.
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Plastic wads are pretty uncommon now, because they are not degradable and farm stock eat them, which does no good. Good point about marks caused by the end of a sawn off though, I didn't know that and have zero experience of sawn offs (honestly) :)
Well, gunpowder (black powder) is rare now and AFAIK is only really used by home load enthusiasts, although black powder cartridges are still available commercially for a very high price.
Modern cartridges use Nitro, also known as smokeless, which is a propellant rather than an explosive. There are a few antique shotguns that can't use it becaues of the higher pressures.

Black powder makes a very loud noise, loads of smoke and a dirty great flame shoots out of the barrel. It also leaves filthy black deposits inside the barrel,so presumably if shots are fired then the pellets will be coated with the soot too.
 
The judge said he had taken several factors into account, including Watt's age and that he was the sole carer for his wife.

Seems sense prevailed after all :)
 
He has been sentenced to 140 hours community service.
 
Yup as mentioned above. The right result as there's no point in jailing such an old person. He'll not be allowed guns again, seems the right verdict.
 
Byker28i said:
Yup as mentioned above. The right result as there's no point in jailing such an old person. He'll not be allowed guns again, seems the right verdict.
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he wasn't allowed sawn offs before, but didn't stop him acquiring them
 
big soft moose said:
he wasn't allowed sawn offs before, but didn't stop him acquiring them
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You're completely correct of course, but I don't think he went out of his way to acquire them. On balance I think the sentence is just.
 
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