Portable "studio"

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testbloke

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I have a chance of doing the photography for a local dace school. Having just watched the photographer at my own daughters dance show I was amazed at the take up on his images. His business model I doubted at first worked a treat.
Problem was, his images were terrible. He was using black cloth backdrop / train and a single studio head reflected of a silver brolly direct front up high angled down.
Not surprisingly, the images were completely flat and often costume blacks were completely lost.
I want to have a compact setup but would like to improve on this somewhat. I have been thinking of a white muslin or paper backdrop and a wooden floor (laminate or vinyl). Was then looking to utilise two speedlights with modifiers, leaving the backdrop unlit. Possibly duplicate this setup for the second with a black backdrop.
Is this a feasible setup and if so any recomendations for a portable backdrop stand, in the case of paper obviously for a roll.
 
If you don't light a white backdrop it will look grey at best, crap at worst. His single light gives consistency and simplicity, both are vital for this sort of work. I would be tempted to stay with black but add a key light to give separation. You could put the light to one side but if sibling or friends shots are wanted it needs to be back at the front to prevent nasty shadows.
 
Al Brum said:
If you don't light a white backdrop it will look grey at best, crap at worst. His single light gives consistency and simplicity, both are vital for this sort of work. I would be tempted to stay with black but add a key light to give separation. You could put the light to one side but if sibling or friends shots are wanted it needs to be back at the front to prevent nasty shadows.
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Hmm, that changes things. Definately will be some shots with siblings, thought the unlit white being grey would be nicer than unlit black ? If using speedlights wirelessly they keylight could easily be moved for groups.
 
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The most common lighting for event photographers is 1 x umbrella or softbox each side. This creates flat lighting and gives everyone a fat face and definitely isn't 'good' lighting - but it's perfect in terms of speed, repeatability and consistency, which is what event photographers need.

The lighting you describe is just a variation of this, except that a single light directly in front and high up is generally more flattering to the subject. He will have used a studio flash head, rather than a hotshoe flash, for its recycling speed, power and because batteries don't last long.

In other words, when it comes to event lighting, the rule is KISS.
 
Garry Edwards said:
The most common lighting for event photographers is 1 x umbrella or softbox each side. This creates flat lighting and gives everyone a fat face and definitely isn't 'good' lighting - but it's perfect in terms of speed, repeatability and consistency, which is what event photographers need.

The lighting you describe is just a variation of this, except that a single light directly in front and high up is generally more flattering to the subject. He will have used a studio flash head, rather than a hotshoe flash, for its recycling speed, power and because batteries don't last long.

In other words, when it comes to event lighting, the rule is KISS.
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Thanks Gary. I understand the benefit of studio -v- speedlight. Thus is a big breakthrough for us so I would like to try and do the best possible, something like keep it reasonably simple stupid :-) As we currently hire studio and our portable lights are Ng, this is also a chance to get a decent setup from scratch. What would Lencarta shopping list be then Gary ?
 
testbloke said:
Thanks Gary. I understand the benefit of studio -v- speedlight. Thus is a big breakthrough for us so I would like to try and do the best possible, something like keep it reasonably simple stupid :-) As we currently hire studio and our portable lights are Ng, this is also a chance to get a decent setup from scratch. What would Lencarta shopping list be then Gary ?
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Well, if you're not going to light the background then I would suggest the Lencarta twin head ElitePro kit (but with 2 x white reflective umbrellas, same price) at £400 + a radio trigger set at £40. If you do want to light the background then you need 2 of those kits, with just 1 radio trigger set (you can manage without the radio trigger set if you already have one).

Having said that, one of Lencarta's trade customers has sold vast numbers of the cheaper SmartFlash kit to event photographers, at a saving of £100 per kit...
 
Looks interesting Gary. If white background, how much space would be required to stop light wrap from the background and what modifiers would you recomend for the background lights ? I know thus us getting to quite a complex setup for the event but the difference in results would be worth the extra effort and of course it could be utilized for home portrait shoots etc.
 
You probably won't completely eliminate all light wrap with less than about 4 metres of space, but you can manage with half that as long as you accept that light wrap is just an integral part of this type of lighting arrangement. Personally I hate it but some people actually love it:)

With a reasonable amount of space, white reflective umbrellas are fine. They are also cheap and portable.
 
Garry Edwards said:
You probably won't completely eliminate all light wrap with less than about 4 metres of space, but you can manage with half that as long as you accept that light wrap is just an integral part of this type of lighting arrangement. Personally I hate it but some people actually love it:)

With a reasonable amount of space, white reflective umbrellas are fine. They are also cheap and portable.
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would a lostolite highlight thingy help In this situation with two heads in it ?
 
testbloke said:
would a lostolite highlight thingy help In this situation with two heads in it ?
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It would make it more portable and require less space, but wouldn't help at all with the light wrap problem.
 
Okay, so white does not follow KISS for events but I hate black, especially full length. Unlit white not recomended either so maybe a light grey.
 
testbloke said:
Okay, so white does not follow KISS for events but I hate black, especially full length. Unlit white not recomended either so maybe a light grey.
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Well, I suppose it's all about taste, and what sells. But it might be worth bearing in mind that Paul Rogers has built a whole events business on shooting against a black background.

Of course, black dresses and black suits don't do well against black backgrounds unless the subjects are also lit via rimlighting, so it's really also about the type of events and the clothes worn at them.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Well, I suppose it's all about taste, and what sells. But it might be worth bearing in mind that Paul Rogers has built a whole events business on shooting against a black background.

Of course, black dresses and black suits don't do well against black backgrounds unless the subjects are also lit via rimlighting, so it's really also about the type of events and the clothes worn at them.
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Thanks for the link Gary. While these are miles better than what I saw at the dance show I still don't like the black suits dissapearing into the background, especially when there is a hand at the end of an outstretched black sleeve. Could a boom and hairlight or similar be added to get a wee bit of seperation ?
 
testbloke said:
Thanks for the link Gary. While these are miles better than what I saw at the dance show I still don't like the black suits dissapearing into the background, especially when there is a hand at the end of an outstretched black sleeve. Could a boom and hairlight or similar be added to get a wee bit of seperation ?
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In theory yes, but frankly if you have enough time to do all that at an event then you won't be busy enough to actually make any money...

As I said before, event photography requires simple, quick lighting. It's a high speed, de-skilled operation in lighting terms.
 
Single light into a silver brolly might serve as a rim light if set high and aiming down? Night need two for more than 2 or 3 people though.
 
Garry Edwards said:
In theory yes, but frankly if you have enough time to do all that at an event then you won't be busy enough to actually make any money...

As I said before, event photography requires simple, quick lighting. It's a high speed, de-skilled operation in lighting terms.
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Gary, I am not knocking your advice or anyone else who does it but we need to be doing something different or better to ensure our future. I will have all the time I want for setup (day before) so adding one rim light or hair light should not overcomplicate the setup ? Especially if the white backdrop is ditched, then we are back to two or three lights max. Once setup, I do mot plan to play between shots, this is my compromise. Lights set for best fit then don't adjust.
 
Al Brum said:
Single light into a silver brolly might serve as a rim light if set high and aiming down? Night need two for more than 2 or 3 people though.
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Thanks. Even for two or three kids, one light has to be better than none ?
 
i'd be very interested to see how this pans out.
I'm doing some group shots for a friend next month, indoors, static,
I intend to use 3 speedlights and brollies (as its quite short range) but I'm doing a test shoot soon. don't need a studio backdrop for this particular event.

I've seen some excellent white backgrounds which are self-supporting tents (porbs the aforementioned lastolite) and the lights on either side shoot into the tent behind the subject, then two portable lights in front.
the shots looked great but they were pretty close up and not full figure.

As I said, very interested in the output and setup for this, although I appreciate that you can't go around posing pictures of people's kids on a forum.
good luck
 
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I think you're missing the point of Garrys advice.

Events, such as dance schools are usually an unknown quantity. I cover around a dozen each year and every one is different.

If you can guarantee that you'll be shooting exactly the same pose each time, then your solution is ok ish.

In reality, you may shoot head and shoulders, or you may shoot full length. You may shoot the kids jumping or dancing, you may shoot them in teams of 3, 5 or a group of 30.

And you need to adequately light all those scenarios, and very quickly.

Personally, I cant image trying to do this with speedlights. I too shoot low key (this year), but I do it with 5 studio heads and some specific light modifiers.

Whilst I applaud your stance on trying to do something different and better, that does take both a lot of experience and skill, and often a good deal of investment in equipment as well.
 
testbloke said:
Gary, I am not knocking your advice or anyone else who does it but we need to be doing something different or better to ensure our future. I will have all the time I want for setup (day before) so adding one rim light or hair light should not overcomplicate the setup ? Especially if the white backdrop is ditched, then we are back to two or three lights max. Once setup, I do mot plan to play between shots, this is my compromise. Lights set for best fit then don't adjust.
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I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it, or can't do it, I'm just pointing out that most event photographers use simple, fixed setups for a reason.
Single light into a silver brolly might serve as a rim light if set high and aiming down? Night need two for more than 2 or 3 people though.
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Possibly usable but far from ideal...
The good thing about it is that the light will spread over a large area, so one flash head with a reflective umbrella may cover the entire area needed, but the bad thing about it is that the light will spread over a large area and is likely to cause lens flare. The best way of avoiding this is to use 2 x softboxes fitted with honeycombs, behind and each side of the subjects. The honeycombed lights will not be pointing directly towards the camera and so won't cause flare. You will need 2 of them because the use of honeycombs will severely limit the spread of light.

Hope that helps.
 
The difference here is we have almost a year to plan, we will know exactly the costumes being worn, the location for the shoot, the time available for each costume, the number of shots to be taken etc. On the day, the Images will be taken at dress rehearsel then printed and made available on the night if the shows. Any other large group shots will either be taken at the individual dance schools or in the studio.
All the individual shots at the event will be full length. This really is big for us as the dance studio are really breaking new ground and have a lot of interest fir franchising and also have some high profile kids with well healed parents.
 
If it helps, I use two beauty dishes with honeycombes at the rear for rim lighting

http://www.lencarta.com/lighting-st...s-1/white-70cm-beauty-dish-with-free-diffuser

and two 150cm Octa boxes at the front, placed at an oblique angle.

http://www.lencarta.com/lighting-st...ding-softboxes/150cm-octa-folding-pro-softbox

I use a 5th head at the rear of the black vinyl roll backdrop to create a red or blue coloured halo.

I'm away from the office until Friday morning but I'll post some shots of the studio when I return if you'd find that usefull.
 
testbloke said:
The difference here is we have almost a year to plan, we will know exactly the costumes being worn, the location for the shoot, the time available for each costume, the number of shots to be taken etc. On the day, the Images will be taken at dress rehearsel then printed and made available on the night if the shows. Any other large group shots will either be taken at the individual dance schools or in the studio.
All the individual shots at the event will be full length. This really is big for us as the dance studio are really breaking new ground and have a lot of interest fir franchising and also have some high profile kids with well healed parents.
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sounds like you have a strong way forward and also that you think that people are trying to put you off :bonk:

what i'd say then is...it sounds like you have a lot of time to prepare, which is always a good thing. Is there anyway you can rehearse your setup and polish your delivery before the event
I presume you've also got backups of everything
the nice thing for me about this business model is that you intend to get paid on the output, not upfront. that takes the pressure off a bit doesn't it? (or not :geek:)
 
DizMatt said:
sounds like you have a strong way forward and also that you think that people are trying to put you off :bonk:

what i'd say then is...it sounds like you have a lot of time to prepare, which is always a good thing. Is there anyway you can rehearse your setup and polish your delivery before the event
I presume you've also got backups of everything
the nice thing for me about this business model is that you intend to get paid on the output, not upfront. that takes the pressure off a bit doesn't it? (or not :geek:)
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Not really thinking people are putting me off, sorry if it comes across that way. Just think that we have to do something different or better than all the other people who will be desperate to take this business away from us. I really appreciate the advice and honesty given and gave huge respect for the people giving it. Generally, if someone tells me not to do something or to take an easier route it just drives me more. That's a failing on my character, always want to run, not crawl !
The kit will be bought well in advance to allow much experimenting, however the comments are valid as on the day there will be something like 300 kids with 7 costumes each and they will be nipping up for photo before getting next costume on for next rehearsel. Not a chance of manual metering or making adjustments once shooting starts.
 
That's all fine, but if you try to over complicate it by doing something that's beyond your experience at an event where you'll be under big pressure (over 2,000 photos to take in a day = 3 per minute over 12 hours solid without a break), then you run the risk of completely cocking it up.

Each speedlight, depending upon the power will last around 200-300 flashes before the batteries need replacing.

Digressing from the lighting, are you saying that you'll be printing out 2,000+ photos for the parents to view on the evening, or am I missing something ?
 
Jerm said:
That's all fine, but if you try to over complicate it by doing something that's beyond your experience at an event where you'll be under big pressure (over 2,000 photos to take in a day = 3 per minute over 12 hours solid without a break), then you run the risk of completely cocking it up.

Each speedlight, depending upon the power will last around 200-300 flashes before the batteries need replacing.

Digressing from the lighting, are you saying that you'll be printing out 2,000+ photos for the parents to view on the evening, or am I missing something ?
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Now definately looking at monoblocks for this, don't want to melt my nice speedlights. I understand the logistics of the shoot, this is best case and assumes everyone turns up, everyone wants a picture and everyone wants a picture in every costume, which is not going to happen but need to be ready for it just in case.
Yes, bonkers as it sounds, we will have a big wall with all the images printed (7x5) at the dance show and will also have tables and staff taking orders for reprints, enlargements, wall mount etc. I watched EVERY printed image at my daughters dance show being bought, apparently it would be extremely embarassing to walk away leaving an image of your child on the wall. As I say, I saw him sell over a thousand prints from a much smaller dance school on the night.
 
Not necessarily bonkers.. if that's the best way then it's the best way, though as a parent I'd probably want to buy one photo.. not seven.

Just one final pointer.. at the dance events that we cover 77% of the sales are done on credit card.
 
Jerm said:
Not necessarily bonkers.. if that's the best way then it's the best way, though as a parent I'd probably want to buy one photo.. not seven.

Just one final pointer.. at the dance events that we cover 77% of the sales are done on credit card.
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I too thought one picture was enough but my wife, mum, mum In law, sister, auntie bought them all and jeyrings and framed enlargements etc !
I am hoping to have facilities for card payments, at my daughters it was all cash, i can only think that as he has been doing it for years everyone knew the drill.
He also took a shiny pound coin for every shutter at the shoot as a sitting fee, this covered both commision to dance school and print costs :-)
 
an old boss of mine looked at using his iphone as a credit card payment device once.
how are you printing them? sub dye or something?
the other way would be to upload them to a website immediately for electronic handling (payment printing etc)
discounts on the night etc,
 
DizMatt said:
an old boss of mine looked at using his iphone as a credit card payment device once.
how are you printing them? sub dye or something?
the other way would be to upload them to a website immediately for electronic handling (payment printing etc)
discounts on the night etc,
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I have a week from the shoot to the show so will just be getting them lab printed. Will also do some enlargement and wall mount prints for samples, special price if ordered at show. Then a couple of ipads with the full gallery for people to flick through. Manual order form, money up front. Just need iIage number and product, all are delivered back to dance school to hand out :-)
 
Garry Edwards said:
As McEnroe famously said... "You cannot be serious!"
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TBH I was thinking exactly the same.

On the one hand you're saying that this is a once-in-a-lifetime business opportunity that you can't cock up, and on the other you're not listening to the advice you're being given from experienced pro's.
 
Jerm said:
TBH I was thinking exactly the same.

On the one hand you're saying that this is a once-in-a-lifetime business opportunity that you can't cock up, and on the other you're not listening to the advice you're being given from experienced pro's.
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Sorry guys, the cube thing was posted on jest, not actually considering it. Lots of great info, advice definately not being ignored. Trying to find best compromise between cost, space and image quality.
 
Jerm said:
If it helps, I use two beauty dishes with honeycombes at the rear for rim lighting

http://www.lencarta.com/lighting-st...s-1/white-70cm-beauty-dish-with-free-diffuser

and two 150cm Octa boxes at the front, placed at an oblique angle.

http://www.lencarta.com/lighting-st...ding-softboxes/150cm-octa-folding-pro-softbox

I use a 5th head at the rear of the black vinyl roll backdrop to create a red or blue coloured halo.

I'm away from the office until Friday morning but I'll post some shots of the studio when I return if you'd find that usefull.
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Those big octoboxes look very nice, shopping list starting to come together. Would appreciate some images of the setup. And from your site you can get all this together (with a mini lab !) into a 20 x 20 foot room !
 
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Having just had time to look through many threads on here, especially the one light thread, I think I need to go back to the start and focus on mastering one light first before looking at four and five light setups !
Studio course and lots of playing first I think would be best way forward. Some of the shots posted with one fron octobox and unlit background are extremely good and not flat at all, amazing the difference a slight angle can make.
 
Our current black background setup, but with the smaller 120 Octa's :

Studio - LK.jpg



Our previous White background setup :

Studio-HK.jpg


Our smallest studio setup, but we only shoot 3/4 length with this :

studio%20-%20Hilite.jpg



HTH
 
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Jerm said:
Our current black background setup, but with the smaller 120 Octa's :

Studio - LK.jpg



Our previous White background setup :

Studio-HK.jpg


Our smallest studio setup, but we only shoot 3/4 length with this :

studio%20-%20Hilite.jpg



HTH
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Brilliant, thanks.
 
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