portable studio flash with high speed sync?

nicholasgn

nicholasgn

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Could anyone recommend a portable flash system which incorporates a high speed sync facility? I was looking at the Lencarta Safari 2, it seems like a great system , but i cannot find any info regarding high speed sync. Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated :)))
 
You can do HSS with the Safari2, but the short flash duration doesn't really lend itself. However you can get great results with an ND filter - which gives a similar light loss as HSS in truth.

Back to your plight - it really depends how much power and what you're after, but probably the best bang for buck system is the new Godox AD600 which without the TTL is a bargain and if you get a re-badged one with a warranty is less risky than buying an import from China to save ££s.

Then maybe the Photix Indra?

Next up would be the latest Elinchrom Quadra with the new HS heads, a step up in reputation and price but a step down in features.

Up from that, Profoto B1

Of course the Lencarta Atom / Godox AD360 etc is a bit cheaper but has less power and the MkII version has ETTL too.
 
The Lencarta Safari 2 doesn't have HSS, which is only available with flashes that operate on the IGBT technology.
There are a tiny number of powerful battery powered systems that do use this technology, but be aware that there are downsides too - a very large % of the power is lost when using HSS, which can defeat the object.
There are 2 main alternatives to HSS, the main one is Tail end sync, which can be used with the Safari 2 (but depending on the camera, isn't always good above half power, because of the very short flash duration..
The Elinchrom ELB 400 (basically their updated Quadra) is available with a special flash head that is extremely slow, which makes it ideal for tail end sync
The other alternative is to just use the normal max shutter speed when necessary, and to fit a neutral density filter to the camera lens.
 
Thank you all for your help ! Gonna take a look at your suggestions now, thanks guys :)
 
Are you sure you really need HSS? There are a few downsides, particularly with plain backgrounds that show any variation in exposure. Of all the units mentioned, only the Profoto B1 is perfectly even from top to bottom of the frame at full power - which is where you'll most likely be in HSS mode. (All the other IGBT heads I've tested with proper pulsed HSS are uneven at full power, around 1/2 to 2/3rds stop down at max output.)

Presumably you want to overcome high ambient light? In which case, a better way would be normal x-sync flash, using an ND filter if you need to push down the shutter speed.
 
nicholasgn said:
Could anyone recommend a portable flash system which incorporates a high speed sync facility? I was looking at the Lencarta Safari 2, it seems like a great system , but i cannot find any info regarding high speed sync. Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated :)))
Click to expand...


You CAN NOT do HSS pulsed high speed lighting nor are they really any good at long tail sync, the older Li-Ion Safari was good for tail sync,

Taking value and performance into consideration you are hard pushed to beat the Godox AD600

Real question is what do you think you need it for?

Mike
 
mike weeks said:
You CAN NOT do HSS pulsed high speed lighting nor are they really any good at long tail sync, the older Li-Ion Safari was good for tail sync,

Taking value and performance into consideration you are hard pushed to beat the Godox AD600

Real question is what do you think you need it for?

Mike
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Whilst you're right in saying that the Safari 2 isn't as good for tail end sync (because of the very short flash durations) than the older Safari Li-on, it does work with the right triggers.
The people who seem to be having problems with getting tail end sync seem to be using the Yongnuo YN622C, customers who are using the PW system report no problems at all.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Whilst you're right in saying that the Safari 2 isn't as good for tail end sync (because of the very short flash durations) than the older Safari Li-on, it does work with the right triggers.
The people who seem to be having problems with getting tail end sync seem to be using the Yongnuo YN622C, customers who are using the PW system report no problems at all.
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Gary the t0.1 of the Safari 2 is about 1/800 and for tail sync you need something that is at least as long as the shutter travel time which is usually just a bit shorter than than X-Sync, so lets say for my D800 we have X-Sync at 1/250 and travel time of 1/400 i.e. the Safari 2 is only lighting for half the required time - tried a number of triggers and it does not work

Mike
 
mike weeks said:
Gary the t0.1 of the Safari 2 is about 1/800 and for tail sync you need something that is at least as long as the shutter travel time which is usually just a bit shorter than than X-Sync, so lets say for my D800 we have X-Sync at 1/250 and travel time of 1/400 i.e. the Safari 2 is only lighting for half the required time - tried a number of triggers and it does not work

Mike
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Travel time depends on the camera, with pro models normally faster than consumer models, and of course cropped sensors tend to be faster than full frame. The exception to this is probably the Canon 5D mark 2, which is painfully slow. AFAIK camera makers don't publish these figures, but most pro cameras should be fast enough - I think that Richard Hopkins is our resident expert on this subject.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Travel time depends on the camera, with pro models normally faster than consumer models, and of course cropped sensors tend to be faster than full frame. The exception to this is probably the Canon 5D mark 2, which is painfully slow. AFAIK camera makers don't publish these figures, but most pro cameras should be fast enough - I think that Richard Hopkins is our resident expert on this subject.
Click to expand...

Anyone can be an expert on this :) You just have to seek out a few super slo-mo videos on YouTube - and there are lots of them. The most helpful ones also have a clock running alongside so you can read off very accurate timings.

Here's one of the Canon 5D2, which as Garry says is one of the slower full-frame cameras that is in wide professional use, though there are slower ones.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfSW4eW25g

It's clear to see there that it takes 4.5ms for one shutter blind to travel from top to bottom of the frame. Most good cameras are in the 3-4ms region. Max x-sync speed is a rough guide to how quickly the shutter blinds actually move. At fastest shutter speeds, the second curtain follows just one or two millimeters behind.

The bit that a lot of people struggle with is how this all works when overlayed with the flash pulse - exactly when that is triggered, how long it takes to reach max brightness (maybe 1ms) and then how quickly the brightness fades (say 3-5ms). It can be a bit of a brain-twister, especially as it all changes according to camera model, shutter speed, the particular flash unit, and power setting. There is a multitude of variations.

While we're talking technical here, one thing I've noticed when testing some of these high powered IGBT heads in HSS mode, is if you look closely, you can sometimes see very faint lines that appear to be individual flash pulses (though you have to look for it). I ran out of time to look into this more closely. Anyone noticed this?
 
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HoppyUK said:
While we're talking technical here, one thing I've noticed when testing some of these high powered IGBT heads in HSS mode, is if you look closely, you can sometimes see very faint lines that appear to be individual flash pulses (though you have to look for it). I ran out of time to look into this more closely. Anyone noticed this?
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I've noticed that on every single one, with the exception of the B1. The worst by far is also the latest one.
 
HoppyUK said:
...

While we're talking technical here, one thing I've noticed when testing some of these high powered IGBT heads in HSS mode, is if you look closely, you can sometimes see very faint lines that appear to be individual flash pulses (though you have to look for it). I ran out of time to look into this more closely. Anyone noticed this?
Click to expand...
I thought it was Mike who'd posted a really clear (bad) example of this, but it could have been you :thinking: I really ought to bookmark stuff I know I'll return to.
 
HoppyUK said:
It's clear to see there that it takes 4.5ms for one shutter blind to travel from top to bottom of the frame. Most good cameras are in the 3-4ms region. Max x-sync speed is a rough guide to how quickly the shutter blinds actually move. At fastest shutter speeds, the second curtain follows just one or two millimeters behind.
Click to expand...

4.5ms equates to 1/222 seconds, (even 3ms would be 1/333 seconds) OH just a bit longer than the X-Sync and the flash needs to be burning for that duration, i.e. 1/800 t0.1 CAN NOT illuminate the whole frame - The Safari 2 is listed as 1/1500 at full power and 1/600 at minimum power, both at t0.1 i.e. not long enough to illuminate the whole sensor properly - the Safari Li-Ion would.

The (Lencarta Atom) Godox AD360 is quoted as 1/300 but no idea if that is t0.1 or t0.5 but is the only light I have tested that I can shoot Long Tail Sync and HSS, the beauty of using it in Long Tail is that it does not have the recharge issues associated with HSS

I have done more than enough research on this to give the answers I do.

Mike
 
Garry Edwards said:
I've noticed that on every single one, with the exception of the B1. The worst by far is also the latest one.
Click to expand...

Thanks Garry. Me too :) It's interesting that Profoto has obviously spent a lot of effort sorting out HSS performance, but in evening out exposure down the frame and getting rid of visible flash pulses has resulted in a loss of brightness compared to others with a similar Ws output. Not massive, about half a stop.

Phil V said:
I thought it was Mike who'd posted a really clear (bad) example of this, but it could have been you :thinking: I really ought to bookmark stuff I know I'll return to.
Click to expand...

Yes, it was Mike. I remember it, and easy to see in his example as I recall.

mike weeks said:
4.5ms equates to 1/222 seconds, (even 3ms would be 1/333 seconds) OH just a bit longer than the X-Sync and the flash needs to be burning for that duration, i.e. 1/800 t0.1 CAN NOT illuminate the whole frame - The Safari 2 is listed as 1/1500 at full power and 1/600 at minimum power, both at t0.1 i.e. not long enough to illuminate the whole sensor properly - the Safari Li-Ion would.

The (Lencarta Atom) Godox AD360 is quoted as 1/300 but no idea if that is t0.1 or t0.5 but is the only light I have tested that I can shoot Long Tail Sync and HSS, the beauty of using it in Long Tail is that it does not have the recharge issues associated with HSS

I have done more than enough research on this to give the answers I do.

Mike
Click to expand...

The first curtain shutter travel time of 4.5ms for the Canon 5D2, is not the whole story. The second curtain is still travelling, the sensor not yet fully covered, so the actual shutter speed must be added to that, exactly 1.0ms at 1/1000sec for example.

I take your point, though total burn time of the flash pulse and t.1 flash durations are not the same thing. Some manufacturers are pushing the sync offset timing moment right to the limit, making use of the ramping-up time of the pulse before t.1 timing starts. This increases the effective total burn time and also pushes the brightest part of the flash nearer the middle of the frame. This usually passes unnoticed in bright ambient light, just as the fading brightness of the tail is also hidden. This is really the key to success with tail-sync - shoot in bright ambient light and keep your subject away from the top and bottom. It can work really well like that, better than theory suggests it should, but move into a studio situation with a plain background and all is revealed. The OP needs to take this into consideration.

FWIW, my testing of the Safari-2 suggests that the unit I had was not achieving the claimed flash durations. This may explain some differences of opinion.
 
HoppyUK said:
Thanks Garry. Me too :) It's interesting that Profoto has obviously spent a lot of effort sorting out HSS performance, but in evening out exposure down the frame and getting rid of visible flash pulses has resulted in a loss of brightness compared to others with a similar Ws output. Not massive, about half a stop.
Click to expand...
I have nothing but contempt for Profoto's deceptive advertising, but they do listen to photographers and they do make products that perform well real-world, even if that results in a slight (but almost unimportant) loss of delivered flash energy. There's nothing in the B1 that can't be produced by others (and will be in just a few months), but right now it's the only one that works as well as it needs to. Other manufacturers produce high spec goods that not only don't deliver to pro photographer standard but which are also over stressed, and which cannot be durable.

HoppyUK said:
The first curtain shutter travel time of 4.5ms for the Canon 5D2, is not the whole story. The second curtain is still travelling, the sensor not yet fully covered, so the actual shutter speed must be added to that, exactly 1.0ms at 1/1000sec for example.

I take your point, though total burn time of the flash pulse and t.1 flash durations are not the same thing. Some manufacturers are pushing the sync offset timing moment right to the limit, making use of the ramping-up time of the pulse before t.1 timing starts. This increases the effective total burn time and also pushes the brightest part of the flash nearer the middle of the frame. This usually passes unnoticed in bright ambient light, just as the fading brightness of the tail is also hidden. This is really the key to success with tail-sync - shoot in bright ambient light and keep your subject away from the top and bottom. It can work really well like that, better than theory suggests it should, but move into a studio situation with a plain background and all is revealed. The OP needs to take this into consideration.
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Yes, but it's plenty good enough for outdoor use even on FX, and if people shoot on DX or leave a bit of space on FX then the problem ceases to exist. And again there's a reason why pro photographers are often prepared to spend more to get the best triggers.

HoppyUK said:
FWIW, my testing of the Safari-2 suggests that the unit I had was not achieving the claimed flash durations. This may explain some differences of opinion.
Click to expand...
The one you tested was the first generation, the performance of later ones is better - but we have customers who are shooting full frame, Safari 2, PW triggers and reporting that it works perfectly. I haven't tested it myself but I have a shoot planned that will put it to the test, and the results will be published, good or bad.
 
HoppyUK said:
The first curtain shutter travel time of 4.5ms for the Canon 5D2, is not the whole story. The second curtain is still travelling, the sensor not yet fully covered, so the actual shutter speed must be added to that, exactly 1.0ms at 1/1000sec for example.
Click to expand...

More than aware of that but was being generous with the calculation

I take your point, though total burn time of the flash pulse and t.1 flash durations are not the same thing.
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Again I appreciate that but t0.1 is 90% below the peak of the light and moving into the area of recording a lot less

Some manufacturers are pushing the sync offset timing moment right to the limit, making use of the ramping-up time of the pulse before t.1 timing starts.
Click to expand...
Pocket Wizard called this Peak Sync
This increases the effective total burn time and also pushes the brightest part of the flash nearer the middle of the frame.
Click to expand...
although on a normal capacative discharge curve even if you do this the peak will be in the first quarter exposed if needing the complete discharge cycle.
This usually passes unnoticed in bright ambient light, just as the fading brightness of the tail is also hidden. This is really the key to success with tail-sync - shoot in bright ambient light and keep your subject away from the top and bottom. It can work really well like that, better than theory suggests it should, but move into a studio situation with a plain background and all is revealed. The OP needs to take this into consideration.
Click to expand...
yep, have looked for some plain background images where they have tested it, strangely none exist, but not surprised about that.
FWIW, my testing of the Safari-2 suggests that the unit I had was not achieving the claimed flash durations. This may explain some differences of opinion.
Click to expand...
I said a long tme ago when I saw the photographic evidence I would believe it as I could not replicate it

Mike
 
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mike weeks said:
You CAN NOT do HSS pulsed high speed lighting nor are they really any good at long tail sync, the older Li-Ion Safari was good for tail sync,

Taking value and performance into consideration you are hard pushed to beat the Godox AD600

Real question is what do you think you need it for?

Mike
Click to expand...
I'd like to shoot portraits,outside in possibly quite bright conditions,be able to lower ambient light levels for dramatic skys,be able to shoot fast moving subjects in this scenario,freeze action :)
 
nicholasgn said:
I'd like to shoot portraits,outside in possibly quite bright conditions,be able to lower ambient light levels for dramatic skys,be able to shoot fast moving subjects in this scenario,freeze action :)
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Tail end sync is helpful for the action shots.
For the other shots, a neutral density filter is the best option.
 
nicholasgn said:
I'd like to shoot portraits,outside in possibly quite bright conditions,be able to lower ambient light levels for dramatic skys,be able to shoot fast moving subjects in this scenario,freeze action :)
Click to expand...
It's a big ask, but if you really do expect action freezing power you should look at the new Eli Quadra HS, but my money would go to Godox for s couple of AD600s and the remote 1200 head, eBay for the cheapest deals, Essential Photo if you want a warranty (can't remember their rebranding details).

Once you start shortening exposures you really cut into flash power.
 
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Garry Edwards said:
Tail end sync is helpful for the action shots.
For the other shots, a neutral density filter is the best option.
Click to expand...

Tail End Sync only works with certain lights but often overcomes the limitations of HSS (long recycle and overheat protection), depending how you use it though HSS can do the job

If what you are trying to do is overpower the sun and/or get a shallow depth of field then ND filters offer a big advantage

Typical HSS loses a stop for going into HSS and then the amount of stops of shutter change above HSS (typical but some lights lose even more)

Supposing we have f2.8 1/2000 @ ISO 100
Our HSS would have lost 1 stop for going to HSS and (assuming 1/250 sync) 3 stops shutter change, so 4 stops overall

Now what if we used a 3 stop ND filter and shot at f2.8 1/250?

We lose 3 stops flash power BUT ambient is also reduced by 3 stops

Conclusion in this scenario is that using ND instead of HSS our flash has a 4 stop advantage - 4 stops of overpowering power

as you move to images taken later in the day which is the popular trend you are working with lower light levels so less of an issue

mike
 
As above, more or less...

HSS will force a loss of effective power, there is some degree of control but not much - effectively, the higher the shutter speed, the greater the effective power loss.

A neutral density filter reduces the effective power of both the flash and the ambient light equally and totally predictably. And, if you want to, you can of course use a graduated ND filter, to darken the sky more than the main subject - in theory you can also do this using HSS but doing so becomes problematic when there isn't enough power to start with.

Using a ND filter to reduce the effect of the ambient light (together of course with using the fastest sync speed available, normally 1/250th) only works when the flash is producing enough power. In the shot below, of our Safari kit (lit by itself) I had ample power from the flash and too much power from the bright sun. Because the flash had more than enough power to overwhelm the sun I could have just taken the shot without using any gadgets, but I would have had to use far too small an aperture for my purpose, so I added a 0.9 (3 stop) ND filter, which allowed me to blur the background.
All is explained here
This is the photo we ended up with, although it may not be obvious, this was shot in brilliant sunshine on the hottest day of the year - we had in fact hoped for a rainy day:)
safari_goose.jpg
 
thanks everyone for your help and time.I think i'm slowly starting to understand the princples,problems and solutions concerning this topic thanks to the input on here.I will get myself some neutral density filters and have a play....which leads to my next topic haha what would you expect to pay for a decent set of neutral density filters? Is a cheap set worth buying? I have the canon 24-70 and 70-200 f2.8 lens,could you guys recommend a good filter kit? Phil i looked at the set you recommended,they were very cheap,...sorry for opening another can of worms :)
 
nicholasgn said:
thanks everyone for your help and time.I think i'm slowly starting to understand the princples,problems and solutions concerning this topic thanks to the input on here.I will get myself some neutral density filters and have a play....which leads to my next topic haha what would you expect to pay for a decent set of neutral density filters? Is a cheap set worth buying? I have the canon 24-70 and 70-200 f2.8 lens,could you guys recommend a good filter kit? Phil i looked at the set you recommended,they were very cheap,...sorry for opening another can of worms :)
Click to expand...

I might be tempted to get a set of mega cheapies, just to see how it goes, then buy one or perhaps two of the best quality.

I find one or two stops ND is no problem, but three is pushing the limit before the viewfinder gets too dark. Depends on the camera too, so YMMV.
 
Garry Edwards said:
...
This is the photo we ended up with, although it may not be obvious, this was shot in brilliant sunshine on the hottest day of the year - we had in fact hoped for a rainy day
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You might have been hoping for a rainy day - but I enjoyed the sunshine. ;)
 
I've got a fairly cheap 3 stop - for the amount of use it gets I spent enough, I've never been concerned by it's optical quality.
 
Phil V said:
You might have been hoping for a rainy day - but I enjoyed the sunshine. ;)
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Well, we managed despite the weather, and the good thing about fire brigade rain is that it does as its told.
Phil V said:
I've got a fairly cheap 3 stop - for the amount of use it gets I spent enough, I've never been concerned by it's optical quality.
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Likewise. I don't think that there's any worthwhile difference in optical quality between cheap and expensive. The cheap ones do seem to have a colour cast, but that's easily corrected.
 
mike weeks said:
It aint just colour

Mike
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No, cheap filters are much more prone to flare, amongst other things. I wouldn't want to be using an uncoated filter shooting outdoors into bright light. That's asking for trouble.
 
Well, I speak as I find, and the cheap ones that I bought via Ebay are fine. I did try out some cheap unbranded ones from China, which were useless, but my own cheapies meet my needs.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Well, I speak as I find, and the cheap ones that I bought via Ebay are fine. I did try out some cheap unbranded ones from China, which were useless, but my own cheapies meet my needs.
Click to expand...

This subject has been done to death in other forums and the evidence is conclusive. Cheap doesn't always mean poor quality and often the differences are hard to spot without doing side by side comparisons. Very few people actually do this, or not in a way or in situations that are likely to show any issues.

The problem is not usually sharpness, but flare - which comes in various guises. With an uncoated filter and shooting into bright light, veiling glare reduces contrast and flattens the image. You may also get extra coloured flare spots if the sun is in or near the frame. Ghosting is another common one, where very bright lights bounce off the shiny sensor and are reflected back off the rear of the filter. It's common when shooting street scenes at night. Coated filters reduce this and multicoating is better still, but even the best filters are not immune. I prefer filters with an easy-clean top coat, which is a blessing when trying to remove greasy finger prints, or nasty stuff like sea spray.

Sharpness can be reduced by filters, but usually only with longer lenses of say 200mm-plus. Long focal length magnifies any irregularities in the filter.
 
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