Policing for who?

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A lot of this is down to the last bunch of idiots in power and their obsession with targets.

Vulnerable people need protecting but that costs a lot of time in manpower for very little results whereas safety cameras have an almost 100% prosecution rate.

The police can't win, if they spend too long or too many resources are used then the prosecution targets drop but perhaps the area is safer. If they go for the easy targets, motorists :D, they meet their targets but the area is possibly not safer.

The whole country needs a good overhaul with common sense back as a priority rather than a service of target driven folk who toe the company line because thats how you get on.
 
cowboy said:
A lot of this is down to the last bunch of idiots in power and their obsession with targets.

Vulnerable people need protecting but that costs a lot of time in manpower for very little results whereas safety cameras have an almost 100% prosecution rate.

The police can't win, if they spend too long or too many resources are used then the prosecution targets drop but perhaps the area is safer. If they go for the easy targets, motorists :D, they meet their targets but the area is possibly not safer.

The whole country needs a good overhaul with common sense back as a priority rather than a service of target driven folk who toe the company line because thats how you get on.
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The last bunch if idiots in power only followed the target culture set by the previous bunch of idiots, and which has been further extended by the current bunch...

I could pinpoint it's inception, but some people think it's because I have a fixation ;)

There will be no let up by whoever gets in next, because someone (guess who) put the idea about that we can't prove the public sector isn't wasting our money without measuring them. I could spend the next six months listing the errors of a target driven culture, but you'll not find many politicians brave enough to question it.

For the most ridiculous public sector initiative, anyone remember the Cones Hotline?
 
Phil V said:
Of course I'm an idiot, more money is no help whatsoever, that must be true because it's what the people with loads of money keep telling the people who don't have enough.
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Not just an idiot (using your words) but also terrible at comprehension (my words). That is not what I wrote at all.
 
viv1969 said:
You place vehicle theft (I don't care if it's one or one hundred) above the welfare of a child.
Vehicles are things...possessions without lives to be ruined. A child is not.
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Stolen vehicles are often involved in car accidents, joy riding etc where innocent people be killed. As you fine well know.

Never mind violent crimes, chaos in the streets at closing time, burglary, assaults etc.

the world doesn't stop just because of a few nonces and as such police forces do need to look at other areas of crime, which is what they did here.

I'm not saying SYP should have dropped pursuing this case, but like all areas it's not the only thing they can work on and if the case wasn't progressing at some stage you have to question the time and money spent on it, no matter how abhorrent the crime.
 
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ST4 said:
.....at some stage you have to question the time and money spent on it, no matter how abhorrent the crime.
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Well Steve. ..someone like you might be ok condoning child abuse (and by saying it's acceptable to look the other way that's exactly what you're doing), but hopefully there aren't too many of your kind left...especially amongst those who hold positions of power.
 
viv1969 said:
Well Steve. ..someone like you might be ok condoning child abuse (and by saying it's acceptable to look the other way that's exactly what you're doing), but hopefully there aren't too many of your kind left...especially amongst those who hold positions of power.
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How am I condoning child abuse, will you please explain how you have got there. Can you also please explain where I mentioned looking other way, merely saying there is a massive workload they have and if such a case, even if its child abuse, is using a disproportionate level of resources that it's only right a more proportionate level of resource is assigned to it.

Just because I am not saying "as its children involved we should spent limitless time and money trying to get a prosecution" doesn't make me someone who condones such henious crimes, but merely puts the case in a realistic context of the workforce of a police force.

Which seemingly SYP did exactly that, and because "children" are the victims the public say this is somehow wrong, when in actual fact it was all they could do. The tax payer isn't some bottomless pit to be exploited to just because the victims of the crime happen to be children, not adult.
 
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ST4 said:
How am I condoning child abuse, will you please explain how you have got there. Can you also please explain where I mentioned looking other way, merely saying there is a massive workload they have and if such a case, even if its child abuse, is using a disproportionate level of resources that it's only right a more proportionate level of resource is assigned to it.

Just because I am not saying "as its children involved we should spent limitless time and money trying to get a prosecution" doesn't make me someone who condones such henious crimes, but merely puts the case in a realistic context of the workforce of a police force.

Which seemingly SYP did exactly that, and because "children" are the victims the public say this is somehow wrong, when in actual fact it was all they could do. The tax payer isn't some bottomless pit to be exploited to just because the victims of the crime happen to be children, not adult.
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Definitely funny fags!

Or just trolling...

Or bloody minded idiocy

How does that statement even come close to the case in question?
 
viv1969 said:
Well Steve. ..someone like you might be ok condoning child abuse (and by saying it's acceptable to look the other way that's exactly what you're doing), but hopefully there aren't too many of your kind left...especially amongst those who hold positions of power.
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Unfortunately looking at the news and world around is, way too many think like that. Which has been point all along, it is not the perceived lack of money, it is a cultural issue.

The odd thing is that as part of the procedures the safety of a vulnerable person is always first. So why don't they do it?
 
Phil V said:
Definitely funny fags!

Or just trolling...

Or bloody minded idiocy

How does that statement even come close to the case in question?
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I'll ignore the first three lines as simply internet speak.

Very. The case consumed a lot of time and money, so they acted to reduce the amount of time and money on it given there was other work they needed to do? Its a time and money management issue

Because this case involves children people get hysterical about a police force trying to use time and money as best it can.
 
ST4 said:
How am I condoning child abuse, will you please explain how you have got there. Can you also please explain where I mentioned looking other way, merely saying there is a massive workload they have and if such a case, even if its child abuse, is using a disproportionate level of resources that it's only right a more proportionate level of resource is assigned to it.

Just because I am not saying "as its children involved we should spent limitless time and money trying to get a prosecution" doesn't make me someone who condones such henious crimes, but merely puts the case in a realistic context of the workforce of a police force.

Which seemingly SYP did exactly that, and because "children" are the victims the public say this is somehow wrong, when in actual fact it was all they could do. The tax payer isn't some bottomless pit to be exploited to just because the victims of the crime happen to be children, not adult.
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It not clear yet what syp have or haven't done, and fair enough you do acknowledge that. You are right that without knowing the details it is hard day for certain what happened. The procedures within which anyone in any operation had to operate are clear though. The training is also mandatory. I'm sure there will be lots of reasons and excuses and the lazy one of lack of funding will be rolled out by the federation and opposition. In my opinion it should never stop doing the right thing.
 
dejongj said:
Unfortunately looking at the news and world around is, way too many think like that. Which has been point all along, it is not the perceived lack of money, it is a cultural issue.

The odd thing is that as part of the procedures the safety of a vulnerable person is always first. So why don't they do it?
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I agree.
What nauseates me here is Steve and his kind thinking that it's ok to knowingly look the other way so long as a few more TWOCKERS get nicked.
 
ST4 said:
I'll ignore the first three lines as simply internet speak.

Very. The case consumed a lot of time and money, so they acted to reduce the amount of time and money on it given there was other work they needed to do? Its a time and money management issue

Because this case involves children people get hysterical about a police force trying to use time and money as best it can.
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I'm out...
 
dejongj said:
It not clear yet what syp have or haven't done, and fair enough you do acknowledge that. You are right that without knowing the details it is hard day for certain what happened. The procedures within which anyone in any operation had to operate are clear though. The training is also mandatory. I'm sure there will be lots of reasons and excuses and the lazy one of lack of funding will be rolled out by the federation and opposition. In my opinion it should never stop doing the right thing.
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And it never did STOP doing the right thing, criminals get caught by the police every single day, and it helped get the criminals in this case. However, like all things, its about managing resource effectively for the good of all. If that means cutting resource on one case, to help with others, so be it. Ruth likes to paint a dramatic picture with colourful, hysterical and emotive language simply as it involves children, but the real world isn't as black and white as all that. Maybe they made mistakes, maybe they didn't but all I know is there are lots of other crimes out there and relentless pursuing one case at the expense of preventing/detecting/enforcing other crimes/laws cannot be in the public interest.

I'd love to know what "Steve and his kind" are. @viv1969 can you please expand on that?
 
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ST4 said:
.......relentless pursuing one case at the expense of preventing/detecting/enforcing other crimes/laws cannot be in the public interest.
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In the case of SYP it isn't one case. It's many cases, with hundreds of victims.
 
Virtually every police force up and down the country have a dedicated Child Protection and Domestic Violence Unit. Children are very much a high priority. This includes SYP! The policing style of the 70s / 80s ( Life on Mars) is long gone and new policing styles have been adopted. However, sadly mistakes are still being made.
 
ST4 said:
And perhaps there were many hundreds more of other cases of differing crimes they needed to do.
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Yes....and god forbid some poor banker's nicked Merc shouldn't take priority.
 
viv1969 said:
Yes....and god forbid some poor banker's nicked Merc shouldn't take priority.
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To that Banker, that Mercedes matters. Also a Merc in the hands of theives could be dangerous and driven very dangerously posing a significant risk to the public.

PS, I am still waiting to a response to my question. What did you mean by "Steve and his kind". Can you please answer it?
 
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ST4 said:
And it never did STOP doing the right thing, criminals get caught by the police every single day, and it helped get the criminals in this case. ...
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You have missed the point, this case wasn't investigated, there's are still victims out there and no doubt the perpetrators have moved on to other victims too. This case is about kids in Sheffield not Rotherham and the nonces you'd like to shoot in the face got off scot free...
 
Phil V said:
You have missed the point, this case wasn't investigated, there's are still victims out there and no doubt the perpetrators have moved on to other victims too. This case is about kids in Sheffield not Rotherham and the nonces you'd like to shoot in the face got off scot free...
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Haven't they busted a fair few already, won't be too much longer til the rest of the nonces are caught. Better late than never and all that.

I imagine its a very tricky case to investigate as unless its reported very quickly and forensic evidence gathered you are going on the word of the victim and to get a proseuction, that can be tricky.
 
Mrs Frac dealt with child abuse, domestic violence and sexual assaults for quite a number of years in an official capacity. Some of the cases were absolutely horrific. Some of you people really need to stop talking about things and judging things you have not a single clue about.
 
ST4 said:
To that Banker, that Mercedes matters. Also a Merc in the hands of theives could be dangerous and driven very dangerously posing a significant risk to the public.
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Chances are that the banker couldn't give a Castlemaine about the Merc beyond the inconvenience of having to use his wife's SLK until his insurance pays out for a new (probably upgraded by exaggerated claiming) one. I could also point out that it's not only stolen Mercs that get driven dangerously, posing a significant risk to the public...
 
ST4 said:
To that Banker, that Mercedes matters. Also a Merc in the hands of theives could be dangerous and driven very dangerously posing a significant risk to the public.

PS, I am still waiting to a response to my question. What did you mean by "Steve and his kind". Can you please answer it?
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To be honest I could care less if my Merc got nicked and they focussed on the poor girls being traded and rape within Pakistani Muslim communities. I can't belief that there is even a discussion required on the priority. And that @ST4 is what I think is meant by you and your kind.

Sure I'd like international networks and serious crime tackled, the likelyhood is that the criminal networks are linked anyway. However in order to return my Merc or to return that girl it is no context. Heck I don't want my Merc back anyway.

When our children's passports were stolen all that went to my mind is the poor children that will be trafficked. When the passport office then played silly buggers about putting it on the stolen list I got really cross with them. It ones again highlighted that the civil servants involved had no idea about the consequences. I was fortunate enough to have appropriate contacts that could do something about it, but I shouldn't have to invoke that.
 
fracster said:
Mrs Frac dealt with child abuse, domestic violence and sexual assaults for quite a number of years in an official capacity. Some of the cases were absolutely horrific. Some of you people really need to stop talking about things and judging things you have not a single clue about.
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Please don't assume we haven't got a clue, and even those that may not, benefit from discussion. Killing the conversation is exactly part of the problem.
 
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dejongj said:
Please don't assume we haven't got a clue, and even those that may not benefit from discussion. Killing the conversation is exactly part of the problem.
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Which part of "SOME OF YOU" has baffled you?

In fact, don`t bother answering, i`m not interested in any response you may have.
 
fracster said:
Which part of "SOME OF YOU" has baffled you?

In fact, don`t bother answering, i`m not interested in any response you may have.
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Which part of not being able discuss don't you understand of being a huge part of the problem ;)

Hey if you want to silence everyone who doesn't agree with you and just pretend it doesn't happen, well shame on you.
 
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fracster said:
Mrs Frac dealt with child abuse, domestic violence and sexual assaults for quite a number of years in an official capacity. Some of the cases were absolutely horrific. Some of you people really need to stop talking about things and judging things you have not a single clue about.
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As a professional, in her official capacity, I would hope she didn't go into details with you.
 
ST4 said:
So other than crimes against children no other crime matters?
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Oh Steve, that is not what Viv is saying at all.
 
dejongj said:
Oh Steve, that is not what Viv is saying at all.
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So whats the whole thread about then and 3 pages of dialogue for.

The police had to make a decision somewhere down the line to deal with other non child abuse related crime in their jurisdiction as these reports were placing an undue demand on their resource to effectively do the case(s) justice. Presumably in that time some nonces were caught in that area, just not all. Same will apply for murderrers, rapists, robbers, speeders, Drink drivers, etc.

Police are spread too thin everywhere. Its a fact of life.
 
ST4 said:
So other than crimes against children no other crime matters?
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No of course not Steve.
But crimes against the person should should always have priority over crimes against property; and crimes against those unable to defend themselves...especially children...should get the highest priority.

IN MY OPINION, those who place possessions above lives are just "wired up" wrong.
 
ST4 said:
So whats the whole thread about then and 3 pages of dialogue for.

The police had to make a decision somewhere down the line to deal with other non child abuse related crime in their jurisdiction as these reports were placing an undue demand on their resource to effectively do the case(s) justice. Presumably in that time some nonces were caught in that area, just not all. Same will apply for murderrers, rapists, robbers, speeders, Drink drivers, etc.

Police are spread too thin everywhere. Its a fact of life.
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Policing is changing very rapidly, there is no avoiding that. However I'm not buying it this particular case has anything to do with underfunding, being spread too thin or anything like that. Sure some will say that and it will hit a chord with many but in my opinion never an excuse.
 
ST4 said:
So whats the whole thread about then and 3 pages of dialogue for.
...
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You really did miss the point. So much that it's funny.

I'm very much not a 'castrate all the paedos' or 'shoot the nonces in the face' knuckle dragger, I'm about the opposite.

I started the thread because I was seriously p***ed off that within a couple of days it emerged money destined to investigate this hideous crime had been diverted because of 'targets', meanwhile endless funds had been spent infiltrating trade unions to provide a blacklist of health and safety conscious workers to the construction industry.

Of course, looking for an easy point to prove blinded you to that. I did suggest you read up, but you thought you were too smart for that.:)
 
ST4 said:
I would want the car back. Smartly.
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You do realise that the theft of most cars (high value ones particularly), involves them being driven carefully to a place where they can be dismantled or crated up and exported. It usually does not involve joyriding.
Crimes involving people - murder, rape, child abuse, should IMO ALWAYS take priority over crimes against property.
 
Phil V said:
I started the thread because I was seriously p***ed off that within a couple of days it emerged money destined to investigate this hideous crime had been diverted because of 'targets', meanwhile endless funds had been spent infiltrating trade unions to provide a blacklist of health and safety conscious workers to the construction industry.
.
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And why were those "targets" set. Presumably these were other areas the force were falling short on at the time, and maybe the money destined to investigate this case would have been better spent in policing other areas, be that road traffic offences, dealing with assaults, drunken and disorderly behaviour, drug related crime, robbery, arson, murder solving etc

It's very easy for you to sit back and pontificate about how this money was spent, but unless you were working in that force, at the time, in a position of authority you probably don't have a clue other than it upsets your feelings or goes against your grain of thought.

As you fine well know the trade unions were a source of massive disruption to life back in the day, and investigating their activity to prevent trouble makers stirring it sadly had to become part of their activity as the unions grew too big for their own good and created massive public order issues. Define endless funds, I am sure thats a turn of phrase to try suit your anti establishment agenda.

Never mind getting evidence sufficient for the CPS to take the case being tricky (lack of forensics and credible or even willing witnesses to put on the stand), and the communities in question likely to clam up when witnesses were called for questioning. There comes a time when merely money isn't enough to solve a crime.
 
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andy700 said:
You do realise that the theft of most cars (high value ones particularly), involves them being driven carefully to a place where they can be dismantled or crated up and exported. It usually does not involve joyriding.
Crimes involving people - murder, rape, child abuse, should IMO ALWAYS take priority over crimes against property.
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I never said it didn't, but I'd want my stolen car case taken seriously, or the damage to my property not completely ignored because there happens to be a nonce on the loose. The whole law enforcement thing cannot come to a stop because of a few sick pervs.
 
ST4 said:
And why were those "targets" set. Presumably these were other areas the force were falling short on at the time, and maybe the money destined to investigate this case would have been better spent in policing other areas,.
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you have a touching face in bureaucracy steve - its actually more likely that targets were set by some random civil servant who isnt actually a serving cop , based on 'because computer says so' - using the same sort of logic that leads to educational targets such as "it is important that over 50% of children are above average"

Target driven policing (or education, health care or whatever) generally sounds good in theory but is a waste of space in practice - it would be like an investment banker having a target of carrying out x trades per day and being judged on whether they meet that target rather than whether the trades make money
 
ST4 said:
. The whole law enforcement thing cannot come to a stop because of a few sick pervs.
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And no one has suggested that it should, have they?
Do you even know what "priorities" means?
 
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