Police caution for using a tripod on Hampstead Heath

Paul Griffin said:
I do agree with the points about using common sense before dialling 999. Even though following government and Met advice to the letter would suggest dialling 999, common sense dictates otherwise (I said before that dialling 999 would be ridiculous). It's just that common sense also suggests it shouldn't be a crime to use a tripod on Hampstead Heath, doesn't it?
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Not really - I'd assume they had a good reason when they wrote the byelaws (private land and all that)
 
Paul Griffin said:
I do agree with the points about using common sense before dialling 999. Even though following government and Met advice to the letter would suggest dialling 999, common sense dictates otherwise (I said before that dialling 999 would be ridiculous). It's just that common sense also suggests it shouldn't be a crime to use a tripod on Hampstead Heath, doesn't it?
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Hi Paul,

As has already been mentioned, it may have something to do with those dodgy fly-trader folk. However, I'm surprised that a chap who is a Guardian Editor and a professional journo was ignorant of the fact that filming and / or photography in a professional capacity on the Heath requires permission. It's pretty clear on the website and I'm sure there would be signs knocking about too...

http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/thin...rmation/Pages/Filming-on-Hampstead-Heath.aspx

Sam
 
Sam B said:
Ah I see. Well CoLP have red chequers too then.

Sam

Edit: In fact, and as I suspected, the Hampstead Heath coppers do appear to be part of the CoLP... they're both commissioned by the City of London Corporation. Every day's a school day eh?
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Not sure were you get that idea. They aren't. They are a completely separate entity.
 
Sam B said:
Hi Paul,

As has already been mentioned, it may have something to do with those dodgy fly-trader folk. However, I'm surprised that a chap who is a Guardian Editor and a professional journo was ignorant of the fact that filming and / or photography in a professional capacity on the Heath requires permission. It's pretty clear on the website and I'm sure there would be signs knocking about too...

http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/thin...rmation/Pages/Filming-on-Hampstead-Heath.aspx

Sam
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If it's 'something to do with those dodgy fly-trader folk' then they have chopped an arm off to cure a tiny splinter in the thumb.

We're really going around in circles here now, but the real principle here is not whether tripods should be allowed or should require a permit, but whether it should be a criminal offence to use one.

big soft moose said:
Not really - I'd assume they had a good reason when they wrote the byelaws (private land and all that)
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Perhaps they did at the time, or perhaps they didn't - I don't know. But can you think of a good reason why the law should still be in force today?

This point about private land is also a bit of an odd one. All land is privately owned. In this case it is owned by the local authority. Large parts of it are also common land. I'd suggest it's what many people would think of as 'public land'.
 
DemiLion said:
Not sure were you get that idea. They aren't. They are a completely separate entity.
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The City of London .gov website... they're both run under the City of London Corporation. I guess that's why they both sporting the same red chequers? The HHC has even adopted the non-parks and open spaces CoLP's helmet crest... to 'standardise' those who police the CoL.
 
Hampstead constabulary aren't police officers in the same way other police are. They have no power outside that park. They are also authorised under a different act (something to do with homes).
Technically you could attack someone the otherside of the heath's fence and they would be unable to arrest you (but could restrain you as any citizen can).

Luckily the rotten borough controlled by the city of london corporation can afford such extravagance.
 
DemiLion said:
Still not part of the same force though, which is why I said:
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Only in so far as Kent and Surrey forces are 'different'.

You will also find that the HHC work with the Met for more serious crimes.
 
shreds said:
Only in so far as Kent and Surrey forces are 'different'.

You will also find that the HHC work with the Met for more serious crimes.
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The Hampstead Heath constabulary is very different to the national forces.

Their powers do not extend out of the City of London parks, whereas other forces have jurisdiction across England and Wales and can exercise their powers wherever they see fit.

National police forces are attested (sworn in) under the Police Act 1996 whereas the Hampstead Heath constables are attested under the Ministry of Housing and Local Government Provisional Order Confirmation (Greater London Parks and Open Spaces) Act 1967.

Any significant crimes are handed to the Met to investigate, the Heath officer certainly don't assist the Met in serious crime investigation, unless it's for an offence committed on the park and they are taking witness statement (eg) for the MET.

Edit - I see Peter beat me to it!
 
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As to whether using a tripod should be a criminal offence or not, I rather suspect that the instruments available to regulate the heath happened to be byelaws and they carry a criminal status, rather than seeing tripod use as a criminal activity and therefore enacting byelaws to deal with it.

There seems to be a level of deliberate perversity of understanding a simple matter in this thread.
 
DemiLion said:
Still not part of the same force though, which is why I said:
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My initial comment which you have tried to correct me on was '...I think the red chequers denote City of London police, rather than the Metropolitan'. Now, as HHC wear the CoLP's insignia, the CoLP supply all their kit AND they're commissioned by the CoLC, I stand by what I said. I am not comparing HHC with any other Force other than the CoLP.

Regards, Sam
 
Sam B said:
My initial comment which you have tried to correct me on was '...I think the red chequers denote City of London police, rather than the Metropolitan'. Now, as HHC wear the CoLP's insignia, the CoLP supply all their kit AND they're commissioned by the CoLC, I stand by what I said. I am not comparing HHC with any other Force other than the CoLP.

Regards, Sam
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Apologies if this has been covered, but the Hamptsead Heath Constabulary are their own force (all of 12 officers!) and they aren't 'commissioned' by the City of a London Constabulary which is a separate force.

The constables are appointed by the Corportation of London, which is very different.
 
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odd jim said:
The Hampstead Heath constabulary is very different to the national forces.

Their powers do not extend out of the City of London parks, whereas other forces have jurisdiction across England and Wales and can exercise their powers wherever they see fit.

National police forces are attested (sworn in) under the Police Act 1996 whereas the Hampstead Heath constables are attested under the Ministry of Housing and Local Government Provisional Order Confirmation (Greater London Parks and Open Spaces) Act 1967.

Any significant crimes are handed to the Met to investigate, the Heath officer certainly don't assist the Met in serious crime investigation, unless it's for an offence committed on the park and they are taking witness statement (eg) for the MET.

Edit - I see Peter beat me to it!
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Hi,

Whilst reportedly, a HHC officer would rarely use their powers of office outside of their usual remit (just how a HMP Warden wouldn't), the HHC differ to other 'Parks police' as the Act below still applies - uniquely - to those officers in HHC.

"Section 16, Corporation of London Open Spaces Act 1878

Every reeve, assistant reeve, bailiff and keeper and other officer appointed by the Corporation from time to time for securing the better execution of their said powers, regulations and bye laws shall have all the powers and privileges and be liable to all such duties and responsibilities as any police constable has and is liable to within the police district in which the common, commonable land or open space, in relation to all or any part whereof such reeve or other officer, is situate: Provided always, that no such officer shall act as a Police Constable unless he is in uniform, or, if in plain clothes, shall be provided with his warrant."

Again, they are commissioned by the CoLC in the same way that the CoLP are, they have CoLP plate badges, they have the same red chequers as CoLP, all of their operational kit is supplied by the CoLP and, by all accounts, they have the same powers as a CoLP officer. However, yes, you're right about serious offences being handed to the MET... HHC is barely a handful of officers and CoLP are <1000. Warwickshire Police is the smallest county police force and they themselves often rely on surrounding forces. In fact, I think they're now in cahoots with West Mercia Police?

Sam
 
odd jim said:
Apologies if this has been covered, but the Hamptsead Heath Constabulary are their own force (all of 12 officers!) and they aren't 'commissioned' by the City of a London Constabulary which is a separate force.

The constables are appointed by the Corportation of London, which is very different.
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Hi

Yes, sorry the acronyms are beginning to get slightly confusing... CoLC (City of London Corporation)... the same people who are behind the CoLP (City of London Police)
 
Sam B said:
Hi,

Whilst reportedly, a HHC officer would rarely use their powers of office outside of their usual remit (just how a HMP Warden wouldn't), the HHC differ to other 'Parks police' as the Act below still applies - uniquely - to those officers in HHC.

"Section 16, Corporation of London Open Spaces Act 1878

Every reeve, assistant reeve, bailiff and keeper and other officer appointed by the Corporation from time to time for securing the better execution of their said powers, regulations and bye laws shall have all the powers and privileges and be liable to all such duties and responsibilities as any police constable has and is liable to within the police district in which the common, commonable land or open space, in relation to all or any part whereof such reeve or other officer, is situate: Provided always, that no such officer shall act as a Police Constable unless he is in uniform, or, if in plain clothes, shall be provided with his warrant."

Again, they are commissioned by the CoLC in the same way that the CoLP are, they have CoLP plate badges, they have the same red chequers as CoLP, all of their operational kit is supplied by the CoLP and, by all accounts, they have the same powers as a CoLP officer. However, yes, you're right about serious offences being handed to the MET... HHC is barely a handful of officers and CoLP are <1000. Warwickshire Police is the smallest county police force and they themselves often rely on surrounding forces. In fact, I think they're now in cahoots with West Mercia Police?

Sam
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The Hampstead Heath officers do not have any powers outside of the Heath or other specifically designated parks within the COL.

The simple fact is they are not attested (sworn in) under the police act which means outside their boundaries they have no more powers than a member of the public.

They are effectively 'run' by the COLP but that is more of an organisational convenience and they had to have a uniform that differed from the MET and standard police uniforms. They are actually funded and paid for by the park and charitable organisations.
 
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odd jim said:
The Hampstead Heath officers do not have any powers outside of the Heath or other specifically designated parks within the COL.

The simple fact is they are not attested (sworn in) under the police act which means outside their boundaries they have no more powers than a member of the public.
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It would appear that isn't the case. The Constabulary are are attested as constables under the same legislation as parks constabularies, but they are also 'designated' with full police powers by the City of London Corporation for their (CoL) open spaces.

I again refer you to Act below, which apparently still stands:

Section 16, Corporation of London Open Spaces Act 1878

Every reeve, assistant reeve, bailiff and keeper and other officer appointed by the Corporation from time to time for securing the better execution of their said powers, regulations and bye laws shall have all the powers and privileges and be liable to all such duties and responsibilities as any police constable has and is liable to within the police district in which the common, commonable land or open space, in relation to all or any part whereof such reeve or other officer, is situate: Provided always, that no such officer shall act as a Police Constable unless he is in uniform, or, if in plain clothes, shall be provided with his warrant.

(Source: http://www.policespecials.com/ ... some kind UK 'police' forum)

Anyhow, I'm not arguing whether or not HHC are the same as other police officers, I'm arguing that the red chequers they wear on their uniform denote City of London Police.

Regards, Sam

 
Sam B said:
It would appear that isn't the case. The Constabulary are are attested as constables under the same legislation as parks constabularies, but they are also 'designated' with full police powers by the City of London Corporation for their (CoL) open spaces.

I again refer you to Act below, which apparently still stands:

Section 16, Corporation of London Open Spaces Act 1878

Every reeve, assistant reeve, bailiff and keeper and other officer appointed by the Corporation from time to time for securing the better execution of their said powers, regulations and bye laws shall have all the powers and privileges and be liable to all such duties and responsibilities as any police constable has and is liable to within the police district in which the common, commonable land or open space, in relation to all or any part whereof such reeve or other officer, is situate: Provided always, that no such officer shall act as a Police Constable unless he is in uniform, or, if in plain clothes, shall be provided with his warrant.

(Source: http://www.policespecials.com/ ... some kind UK 'police' forum)

Anyhow, I'm not arguing whether or not HHC are the same as other police officers, I'm arguing that the red chequers they wear on their uniform denote City of London Police.

Regards, Sam
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They have full powers, but only in the parks and designated open spaces (which are other parks under their control!)), this doesn't mean they can walk the streets of London and use their powers wherever they like, they are very restricted in this respect.

They are a strange anomaly and tbh I'm surprised they still exist in this day and age.

Under the Article 18 of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government Provisional Order Confirmation (Greater London Parks and Open Spaces) Act 1967 the officers are sworn in as council officials as "constables", as such they are not *legally* police officers which is why outside of the local authority boundaries they have no police powers.

The act you quoted only facilitates this through a legal issue with regards to who the local authority is and who can attest the council officers.
 
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odd jim said:
They have full powers, but only in the parks and designated open spaces (which are other parks under their control!)), this doesn't mean they can walk the streets of London and use their powers wherever they like, they are very restricted in this respect.

They are a strange anomaly and tbh I'm surprised they still exist in this day and age.
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... or in the Square Mile which is policed by officers of the CoLP appointed by the CoLC, which brings me back to my original comment - which seemed to spark this side-debate - of '...I think the red chequers denote City of London Police, rather than the Metropolitan'!

Regards, Sam
 
Sam B said:
... or in the Square Mile which is policed by officers of the CoLP appointed by the CoLC, which brings me back to my original comment - which seemed to spark this side-debate - of '...I think the red chequers denote City of London Police, rather than the Metropolitan'!

Regards, Sam
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They don't have any powers in the "square mile" (it begs the question, why would they need parks officers in the financial district?) :)

They do have powers within a mile of a designated space, is this what you mean?

With regards to their uniform, they do have the same red chequers, but their badging is very different and clearly differentiates them from the COLp.
 
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Ulfric M Douglas said:
Blimey!
"specifically S11 of LCC bylaws of 1932 banning any “photographic stand apparatus"

Can we still shoot Welshmen in Chester after dark?
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According top my son, who did his Law degree in Chester... yes you can! :) Much to his Welsh mother's disgust.
 
odd jim said:
They don't have any powers in the "square mile" (it begs the question, why would they need parks officers in the financial district?) :)
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Indeed, why would they need parks officers in the financial district? - I guess it's because they probably share the same qualities and level of skill as a CoL police officer? Maybe their powers as a Constable is similar to that a BTP copper has outside of railway network?

odd jim said:
do have powers within a mile of a designated space, is this what you mean?
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I can only refer you back to that Act I posted and that HHC differ from the other parks police.

odd jim said:
regards to their uniform, they do have the same red chequers, but their badging is very different and clearly differentiates them from the COLp.
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I have never examined the uniform of either a HHC nor CoLP, but according to the still-serving (I can't verify this) HHC copper on that police forum I linked to (search Hampstead Heath on their forum to see their thread), they have an identical helmet badge, have all their kit supplied by the CoLP and - I quote - 'have had this done to standardise policing in the City of London' (I assume this means the City as per CoLC 'City'? If you can find evidence to the contrary then I'd be up for having a look.

The crux of my 'argument' was really in defence of what I considered a rather pedantic comment made to my red chequering denoting City of London Police, rather than the Metropolitan Police, remark. Similarly, the same level of pedanticism was shown in reply to my comment of what type of crime (something obvious to most) would satisfy the '...a crime being committed' criterion to the 999/101 debate. From what I have read so far, the red chequering, the same CoLP badge, the fact that they get issued uniform and equipment by the CoLP and are both under the City of London Corporation governing body, is enough to support my initial claim of 'red chequering denoting City of London Police, rather than the Metropolitan Police'.

Regards, Sam
 
Dinsdale said:
According top my son, who did his Law degree in Chester... yes you can! :) Much to his Welsh mother's disgust.
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Can you still drop a Scot with a longbow from within York City walls?
 
So - can I use a monopod? Surely it is not an erection if it falls over if I let go.
Then again some monopods have little feet. Mmmmmm
 
Dinsdale said:
According top my son, who did his Law degree in Chester... yes you can! :) Much to his Welsh mother's disgust.
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But that doesn't render more modern laws invalid... such as those which deal with murder!


Steve.
 
Sam B said:
Indeed, why would they need parks officers in the financial district? - I guess it's because they probably share the same qualities and level of skill as a CoL police officer? Maybe their powers as a Constable is similar to that a BTP copper has outside of railway network?


I can only refer you back to that Act I posted and that HHC differ from the other parks police.



I have never examined the uniform of either a HHC nor CoLP, but according to the still-serving (I can't verify this) HHC copper on that police forum I linked to (search Hampstead Heath on their forum to see their thread), they have an identical helmet badge, have all their kit supplied by the CoLP and - I quote - 'have had this done to standardise policing in the City of London' (I assume this means the City as per CoLC 'City'? If you can find evidence to the contrary then I'd be up for having a look.

The crux of my 'argument' was really in defence of what I considered a rather pedantic comment made to my red chequering denoting City of London Police, rather than the Metropolitan Police, remark. Similarly, the same level of pedanticism was shown in reply to my comment of what type of crime (something obvious to most) would satisfy the '...a crime being committed' criterion to the 999/101 debate. From what I have read so far, the red chequering, the same CoLP badge, the fact that they get issued uniform and equipment by the CoLP and are both under the City of London Corporation governing body, is enough to support my initial claim of 'red chequering denoting City of London Police, rather than the Metropolitan Police'.

Regards, Sam
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You're right about the red chequers.

However their vest badges clearly state they are from the park constabulary. This is administered by the COLp.

But they don't have powers outside their designated area(s), that was my point. They are not "constables" outside of these areas.

The legislation you quoted, as I've said, doesn't give them powers outside of this.

The fact the are not sworn in under the police act seals that as they are not sworn in *police* constables. They are not police officers.

BTP officers have the same powers as all police officers outside of the rail network as they are sworn in police officers.
 
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odd jim said:
...BTP officers have the same powers as all police officers outside of the rail network as they are sworn in police officers.
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I thought that too. I Googled it and found this...

British Transport Police's (BTP) officers are recruited and trained in the same way as local police officers. They have all the same powers of a Constable. BTP's responsibility is for the railways, including some tram systems and jurisdiction is usually defined as 'on the railways (including tram systems) or for any purpose to do with the railways'. For instance, officers might arrest a robbery suspect or carry out a house search - then they have jurisdiction anywhere.

If it is not a railway related matter – for instance if they come across a robbery in the street, then the following applies,

BTP officers have the powers and privileges of a Constable beyond their normal jurisdiction in three specific circumstances:

  • when asked for assistance by a Constable from local police, Ministry of Defence Police or the Civil Nuclear Constabulary
  • if they believe that someone has committed, is committing or is about to commit an offence, and waiting for a local officer would frustrate the interests of justice
  • to save life or prevent injury.
These powers for BTP officers can only be exercised by officers in uniform or with documentary evidence of their status (i.e. their warrant card), and only if waiting for a local officer to arrive is not a feasible option.

I've made bold the relevant bit.

Regards, Sam
 
Sam B said:
I thought that too. I Googled it and found this...

British Transport Police's (BTP) officers are recruited and trained in the same way as local police officers. They have all the same powers of a Constable. BTP's responsibility is for the railways, including some tram systems and jurisdiction is usually defined as 'on the railways (including tram systems) or for any purpose to do with the railways'. For instance, officers might arrest a robbery suspect or carry out a house search - then they have jurisdiction anywhere.

If it is not a railway related matter – for instance if they come across a robbery in the street, then the following applies,

BTP officers have the powers and privileges of a Constable beyond their normal jurisdiction in three specific circumstances:

  • when asked for assistance by a Constable from local police, Ministry of Defence Police or the Civil Nuclear Constabulary
  • if they believe that someone has committed, is committing or is about to commit an offence, and waiting for a local officer would frustrate the interests of justice
  • to save life or prevent injury.
These powers for BTP officers can only be exercised by officers in uniform or with documentary evidence of their status (i.e. their warrant card), and only if waiting for a local officer to arrive is not a feasible option.

I've made bold the relevant bit.

Regards, Sam
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Well I never, didn't know that.

That said, they do have the powers in law to enact their powers outside of their jurisdiction as they take the same oath and are sworn in under the Police Act, which is why when asked to, they have the power to deal with anything, effectively anywhere.

Their jurisdiction is simply to allow for work boundaries, responsibilities and remits I should imagine.

This again is different to our friends in the park constabularies who, as stated, aren't actual police officers, whereas BTP officers are.

In fact, if you look at their vehicles and uniform, none of it actually states "police", they are just marked "constabulary". They have no 'police' markings whatsoever.
 
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Dinsdale said:
According top my son, who did his Law degree in Chester... yes you can! :) Much to his Welsh mother's disgust.
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I'm guessing he didn't finish top of his class if he wasn't aware that assault with a weapon is a crime! :)

To be honest, you'd get arrested as soon as you got your bow out. I've known archers to be stopped by police if any part of their arrows were visible outside their bag.
 
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