Police abusing thier powers yet again

[Photo Plod]

I understand the point! But.... Perfect example of how things can get 'out of hand'... Can you give an example of 'impractical'...

Yes, I can. A while back, I was in plain clothes when someone sold me some drugs. I was on my own in an alleyway, with my colleague round the corner. There were two suspects. As soon as the suspect produced the drugs, I immediately handcuffed him and got him under control. It would not have been sensible to first produce my warrant card and identify myself as PC Hollis from Sun Hill, because the suspect would have been half a mile away by the time I'd have finished.

In a calm scenario like you're describing, I would hope I have enough time to explain who I am, what I'm doing and produce my warrant card, and that you'd be reasonable enough to listen. The fact is, I spend most of my working life with habitual criminals, many of whom are not reasonable at all.

 

[Splog]

Yes, I can. A while back, I was in plain clothes when someone sold me some drugs. I was on my own in an alleyway, with my colleague round the corner. There were two suspects. As soon as the suspect produced the drugs, I immediately handcuffed him and got him under control. It would not have been sensible to first produce my warrant card and identify myself as PC Hollis from Sun Hill, because the suspect would have been half a mile away by the time I'd have finished.

Good example.... .......

 

[Flash In The Pan]

The fact is, I spend most of my working life with habitual criminals, many of whom are not reasonable at all.

Therein lies the problem - whilst I can empathise with an officer's dilemma, it becomes an issue when "normal" members of the public are treated in the same way as habitual criminals.

When it comes to photographers, the hostility displayed comes across not as a desire to uphold the law of the land, but rather as an attempt to prevent the legitimate documenting of policework.

 

[Photo Plod]

Therein lies the problem - whilst I can empathise with an officer's dilemma, it becomes an issue when "normal" members of the public are treated in the same way as habitual criminals.

When it comes to photographers, the hostility displayed comes across not as a desire to uphold the law of the land, but rather as an attempt to prevent the legitimate documenting of policework.

I agree. All people are entitled to a level of courtesy, and I've never had a problem with this. I don't think all police officers are hostile towards photographers as you imply, though, but I don't doubt that some have crossed the line. If you can trawl through the mountain of posts I have made in this thread, you'll find a reference I have made to actions already being taken within the Met to address this specific issue. Likewise, I have already said to death that I have no problem in being documented either - just so long as I'm not edited into doing something I'm not (see earlier example of shoplifter with syringe) - as I'm confident in my abilities and that I do my job well, and am already fully accounting for my actions in dozens of other ways.

 

[Marcel]

By eck Photo Plod, that's quite a circus of hoops to be jumped through.
I can understand why, but I really do feel sorry for the police.

I would prefer the following version of events in the above domestic assault scenario.

1. Man brandishes lamp
2. Officer quickly neutralizes the ikea-style threat and said offender
3. Officer then confirms the neutralisation with a body check by doctor martin
4. Re-confirmation to be sure.
5. Maybe double check once more, in the interests of safety.
6. Offender is checked for friction resistance to hallway, pathway, and road by Officer and Colleague
7. Offender is placed gently in the back of Police vehicle.
8. Upon arrival at station reception, officer is given offenders room key and directed towards his booked accomodation
9. Offender given the opportunity to reflect on the error of his ways for the rest of the evening.
10. Offender released the next morning, with the proviso he promises to be a very good boy in future.

Or to summarise.

1. You're nicked
2. Oops, dont hit my boots
3. Have a sleep to think about it
4. Dont do it again


I am joking of course
However, I do think that there is just way too much red tape and 'arse covering' going on which interferes with policing. Common sense seems to have been taken out of the equation.

 

[Splog]

In a calm scenario like you're describing, I would hope I have enough time to explain who I am, what I'm doing and produce my warrant card, and that you'd be reasonable enough to listen. The fact is, I spend most of my working life with habitual criminals, many of whom are not reasonable at all.

I really, really do understand the difficulties of the job but perhaps the Police tar everyone with the same brush...!,

My point is that I have seen totally unreasonable, loutish behaviour from people who turned out to be Police officers who actually laughed about a situation that they caused by not identifying themselves when they could have! .... Several people were seriously injured in a fight (both sides) that just should never have happened if they had just shown some ID.... Believe me I'm not anti-police, but some are just thugs who enjoy a good time and they seem above the law... I just wish I had a camera with me during that incident...

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I agree. All people are entitled to a level of courtesy, and I've never had a problem with this. I don't think all police officers are hostile towards photographers as you imply, though, but I don't doubt that some have crossed the line. If you can trawl through the mountain of posts I have made in this thread, you'll find a reference I have made to actions already being taken within the Met to address this specific issue.

No, of course not all police officers are hostile towards photographers, but the Met in particular are fast gaining a reputation as being decidely anti-photographer....

 

[Photo Plod]

I am joking of course
However, I do think that there is just way too much red tape and 'arse covering' going on which interferes with policing. Common sense seems to have been taken out of the equation.

Believe it or not, in the interests of readability of that post and in order not to completely send forum readers to sleep (don't want to be sued as heads hit the keyboard), I haven't even touched on what goes into a full case file - also prepared by the officers...

MG1 - Case Front Sheet (1 piece of paper, easy)
MG2 - Witness Special Measures
MG3 - Report to CPS for Charging
MG3A - Further report to CPS (not often necessary)
MG4 - Charge Sheet
MG4A - Conditional Bail Conditions
MG5 (611) - Outline of offence, including narrative, CCTV summary, interview, drug test results, injuries, compensation issues, etc.
MG6 - Confidential CPS Report
MG6A - Pre Interview Disclosure Report
MG6B - Police Officer's Disciplinary Record
MG6C - Unused Case Material (like an inventory)
MG6D - Sensitive Material
MG7 - Remand Application
MG8 - Breach of Bail Conditions Report (not often necessary)
MG9 - Witness List
MG10 - Witness Non-Availability (to schedule a convenient trial date)
MG11 - Statements (there will usually be several of these)
MG12 - Exhibit List
MG13 - Application for Order on Conviction (compensation, ASBO, etc)
MG15 (there is no 14) - Record of Taped Interview (transcription)
MG16 - Bad Character Evidence
MG18 - Offences Taken Into Consideration (not often used)
MG19 - Compensation Claim Forms
MG20 - Further Report to CPS

On top of these, you will often have:

Interview Tapes
Stop & Search Forms
MGDD (drink drive forms)
CCTV evidence
Paper-based exhibits (e.g copies of ASBO papers)
Officers' Notes
Forensic Reports
Custody Records
Crime Report
CAD Report (the original 999 log, if you like)

There is a whole host of other material that can go in there, but it's nearly midnight and I'm tired.

Anyway, back on topic before I get even more boring! I hope it goes some way to showing the level of accountability we actually have, though.

 

[Splog]

this is after all a democracy??

No it's not...

 

[Photo Plod]

No, of course not all police officers are hostile towards photographers, but the Met in particular are fast gaining a reputation as being decidely anti-photographer....

I won't rehash everything I've said before, but I expect it's "word of mouth" like that that made the Commissioner issue new guidance for photography to Met officers almost immediately after taking office.

At least the force is actually taking some action - it won't change things overnight, nor will it stop every possible situation, but it should help considerably. As I keep saying, unfortunately I can only be accountable for me and my actions; it is easy to lay an accusation at an institution, because that does not identify individuals responsible and is impossible to refute.

 

[Splog]

Believe it or not, in the interests of readability of that post and in order not to completely send forum readers to sleep (don't want to be sued as heads hit the keyboard), I haven't even touched on what goes into a full case file - also prepared by the officers...

MG1 - Case Front Sheet (1 piece of paper, easy)
MG2 - Witness Special Measures
MG3 - Report to CPS for Charging
MG3A - Further report to CPS (not often necessary)
MG4 - Charge Sheet
MG4A - Conditional Bail Conditions
MG5 (611) - Outline of offence, including narrative, CCTV summary, interview, drug test results, injuries, compensation issues, etc.
MG6 - Confidential CPS Report
MG6A - Pre Interview Disclosure Report
MG6B - Police Officer's Disciplinary Record
MG6C - Unused Case Material (like an inventory)
MG6D - Sensitive Material
MG7 - Remand Application
MG8 - Breach of Bail Conditions Report (not often necessary)
MG9 - Witness List
MG10 - Witness Non-Availability (to schedule a convenient trial date)
MG11 - Statements (there will usually be several of these)
MG12 - Exhibit List
MG13 - Application for Order on Conviction (compensation, ASBO, etc)
MG15 (there is no 14) - Record of Taped Interview (transcription)
MG16 - Bad Character Evidence
MG18 - Offences Taken Into Consideration (not often used)
MG19 - Compensation Claim Forms
MG20 - Further Report to CPS

On top of these, you will often have:

Interview Tapes
Stop & Search Forms
MGDD (drink drive forms)
CCTV evidence
Paper-based exhibits (e.g copies of ASBO papers)
Officers' Notes
Forensic Reports
Custody Records
Crime Report
CAD Report (the original 999 log, if you like)

There is a whole host of other material that can go in there, but it's nearly midnight and I'm tired.

Anyway, back on topic before I get even more boring! I hope it goes some way to showing the level of accountability we actually have, though.

Zzzzzzzzzz...... Only kidding, It's a good example of how far organisations have to go to pay all the lawyers loads of good money ...Usually ours Get it right and they get paid, get it wrong and they get paid...Win, Win! ....


Remember 99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name....

 

[Garry Edwards]

I think the situation is complicated by the fact that police forces are large and often ineficient organisations, where instructions and guidance doesn't always disseminate downwards as well as it should.

Add in the fact (or at least my personal belief) that police officers seem to be trained to be over confident about their own level of knowledge and to be assertive when dealing with the public, which often means that they simply repeat their demands instead of actually listening to what people are saying to them, and we're pretty well bound to end up with a number of police officers who make up 'laws' as they go along, misinterpret the law and ride roughshod over people's rights whenever they can - all in the belief (usually) that they're actually doing their job well...

Then look at their specialist sections and their level of competence and training... 'Marksmen' (hasn't anyone else noticed that every police firearms officer is a marksman) who need over 200 bullets to kill a dangerous dog, when any army marksman would have done it with one. Dog handlers who sometimes can't even control their own dog, and so on. It isn't the fault of the individuals, it's the fault of their training, which is often extremely poor due to the fact that the police believe themselves to be superior and won't go 'outside' to learn from the real experts.

There's an interesting piece in the BJP this week about the new Met police guidelines, in fact the BJP have been running a campaign on the subject of police abuse of photographers' rights for some time now - but personally I doubt whether anything can really change until and unless the most senior police officers change their own attitudes and change the attitudes of the men and women on the front line.

 

[Photo Plod]

Garry,

I don't disagree with the first part of what you've said. All large organisations suffer from inefficiencies and related problems.

From then on, I have to say..."whoa!". I was never trained to be "over confident". Assertive, yes. But at the same time, I was also taught to listen to people - which I hope is reflected in my contributions to this thread. Every example I have given, I have referenced from personal experience. I have never "made up the law as I go along" - because what would I do when it all went wrong? Why would I want to ride roughshod over people? I'm not a power-hungry maniac, though you probably don't believe me.

What is this example of 200 bullets to kill a dangerous dog? While I don't work in firearms, I know some officers who do, and many officers (across the board) are ex-army anyway, so I don't see where you're getting this comparison from. Likewise with the dog handlers - apart from a specific individual officer in Nottingham recently.

Where would you like me to go to learn police procedure, powers and laws from? An external consultancy? You may be interested to know that throughout my training, I had the input of victims, pressure groups, a magistrate and solicitors. Under the new IPLDP scheme - introduced 2 years ago - police officers spend even more of their training "outside". Kent Police don't train any of their officers in-house. They study at Canterbury University and are entirely taught by outsiders.

Likewise, as I keep on hammering away, the Commissioner himself ordered the guidance regarding photography to be issued - I expect it will take time to filter down, but I think that is a sign of attitude change from the officer at the very head of the largest police force in the country.

 

[Joshua James]

Firstly before I add my thoughts I'd like to thank Photo Plod for his accurate, balanced accoutns of policing thus far. I hope this does give off the right messages to all concerned.

I'd like to add my thoughts on policing, filming and photography.

I work for the police and have done for a number of years now. Policing offers a huge variety of roles and the career options and development can be fantastic. Some areas of policing quite rightly require a level of anonimity (Under cover work, counter terrorism, drugs related policing etc). Some officers will enter the force with a view to working in these areas of policing in the future, some will end up doing this work without having thought about it at all prior to taking up the post. This is why photographs / film of officers can be detrimental. If I'm working undercover the last thing i want is for my picture to appear on a stock website, in a local or national newspaper or all over the evening news, bearing in mind this could happen AT ANY TIME. A photo of me splitting up a fight 5 years ago could identify me to anyone if it suddenly became public during my time undercover.:shake:

I'm not saying this is a major issue to every officer, but to someone who has a really focus on their future career, this could be detrimental / disasterous.

We recently had a documentary filmed at my station, and whilst I have every confidence I am carrying out my role fully, legally, appropriately and proficiently I declined to be included as I have an interest in progression to some areas of policing in the future.

I do understand police officers are in the public eye, however I also have a right to career as much as anyone else.

Another issue for officers is that of personal or family safety. Many officers choose not to live in the same area they police to avoid being recognised and harrassed by their 'Customers'. I do police reasonably close to where I live and I have had one occasion when my wife was verbally abused in the street :razz:after a chap I had locked up saw the two of us out together. He later saw her alone and was abusive. Not on. Now imagine having your face spread all over youtube. Some of these clips get hundreds of thousands of hits - it only takes one of the officers neighbours to see the clip and for no reason other than he is a police officer, his windows get smashed. Again, I know this is unlikely but IT HAPPENS.:bonk:


With regards to photographers being harrassed by police, this is an issue that really needs to be put into scale. I'd venture as far as saying the only place that this is really a problem is in the captial, which given the security concerns surrounding our parliament, monarch, financial centres and the huge number of people living in close proximity warrants the extra attention it gets. Bearing in mind the millions and millions of people with cameras in London, every year, this really is a minute percentage. There has to be balance between the preservation of life through identifying and dealing with potential terrorists against allowing the freedom of photographers. I have been challenged twice before now, one positive experience and one not so positive. On both occasions I politely explained what i was doing, showed the officers the photographs and gave them a business card showing I was a photographer. I didn't have to do this but I appreciated that the officers where showing concern that someone was taking an interest in a high profile area during a time when terrorism is a real, daily threat to national security.

I agree 100% that not every officer is clued up on every aspect of the law. I know 100% more about the laws surrounding photography through being a photographer than I do through being a police officer. There are often skills gaps surrounding specialist area's and unfortunately more often than not the law is open to interpretation. That's said, I would not expect a city officer to be 100% clued up on the laws surrounding Badger Setts or Fox Hunting. Legal knowledge is the same as any other kind of learning - if you don't use it, you will forget it. The important thing is to know where to look for information when the need arises.

I have worked with some people who in my opinion should not have been police officers, alhtough as has been said before you will find this with any occupation. I have seen these officers policed rigorously by proffesional standards and rightly so. Officers bear a huge responsibility that comes with holding public office. They have a duty to behave in an appropriate manner on and off duty or face the consequences. I should also highlight that these consequences can be significantly steeper for a police officer (If say convicted for theft, the sentance bestowed on a police officer will be much higher than on a member of the public, given the place in society that they hold).

Its a difficult job, with a ton of red tape but in general, compared to elsewhere in the world (As those photographers that enjoy Greek Airshows may find out )- we get treated pretty well and received a good service.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Photo Plod,

My comments aren't directed at you, nor at any other individual. They're just comments based on my personal experience and on conversations I've had with a number of friends who happen to be police officers.

And I wasn't talking about external training in police procedures etc, what I meant was learning specialist skills such as firearms, dog training etc from the real experts. I mention those fields because of my own interest in them.

You mention the Commissioner, or at least the current one. I wonder whether part of the problem may be a lack of respect for "doing the right thing", given the many examples of downright lies coming from the mouths of senior police officers when an innocent man was shot dead by police, in circumstances that seemed to me to amount to murder, at Stockwell tube - it must be difficult for the people on the ground to be straightforward when the people they should be able to look up to clearly aren't.

 

[Splog]

Garry,

I don't disagree with the first part of what you've said. All large organisations suffer from inefficiencies and related problems.

Excuses , excuses Very true! but does that make it acceptable What next?...The police will be saying sorry for shooting people seven times in the head on trains, saying they jumped over barriers so they must be terrorists and lying as much as they can to avoid their total incompetance, driven by this idiot government,,,,Just say sorry we made a mistake and everything is OK.....Then what? try and charge them under H&S legislation but nobody is accountable ...Total drivel IMHO This is what is seriously wrong...We are a large organisation so please forgive us absolute *******s...

I really am not being personal and I do appreciate you giving us the other side of the story You also sound more than genuine and have put much effort into your replies..But it doesn't change facts

 

[Sparkles33]

Good on you photo plod for answering so many questions BTW

 

[Photo Plod]

Excuses , excuses Very true! but does that make it acceptable What next?...The police will be saying sorry for shooting people seven times in the head on trains, saying they jumped over barriers so they must be terrorists and lying as much as they can to avoid their total incompetance, driven by this idiot government,,,,Just say sorry we made a mistake and everything is OK.....Then what? try and charge them under H&S legislation but nobody is accountable ...Total drivel IMHO This is what is seriously wrong...We are a large organisation so please forgive us absolute *******s...

I really am not being personal and I do appreciate you giving us the other side of the story You also sound more than genuine and have put much effort into your replies..But it doesn't change facts

I didn't say we should be forgiven, if you're talking about facts. I was talking about bureaucratic inefficiencies.

There really is nothing I can say about the De Menezes case. I wasn't involved with it, I can't influence anything that arises out of it, and I can't do anything to settle your concerns. I just plod on and do the job I enlisted for as best I can, like most of the other officers I work with.

 

[Splog]

I didn't say we should be forgiven, if you're talking about facts. I was talking about bureaucratic inefficiencies.

There really is nothing I can say about the De Menezes case. I wasn't involved with it, I can't influence anything that arises out of it, and I can't do anything to settle your concerns. I just plod on and do the job I enlisted for as best I can, like most of the other officers I work with.

Hiya mate

I'm seriously not asking you to comment on that case...My point was that government bodies / Civil organisations are above and beyond the law!
As soon as a question arises regarding their actions they seem to be let off through some beaurocratic red tape ********! As a member of the public it smacks of one rule for you and one rule for me.... I do know that not all PO's are bad but the way that the law deals with certain people in public jobs is seriously unbalanced and needs to be redressed if the public is to have any respect and faith in those organisations. Seriously how can anyone kill someone and not be made accountable for their actions? Yet a manager in a factory can end up in court for some idiot doing something they shouldnt....Okay I know it's a bit different, but it shows how the government protects it's own

 

[Naboo32]

Slightly off topic, but it wouldn't be the first post here which was .

I simply wanted to say that having lived all of my life in England and then moving to Germany in 2003, I really can't believe the way in which the British public treat their police force . If ever I've seen a society that needs policing, it's in Britain. The levels of anti-social behaviour, (so called) petty crime and the ever present threat of more terror attacks should have (IMO) the British public putting their full weight behind supporting the police, instead of looking for every opportunity to defy what little authority they now have.

In Germany, the police all carry guns, virtually everyone seems to respect them (you certainly don't answer back to them :nono and instances of complaints against them seem to be fairly rare (or are under-reported).

My point is, the fact that the general public often seem to be challenging the police and making it much harder for them to get on and deal with situations quickly and without undue fuss, is probably in part what makes those 'rogue' officers behave in the way that they do. Someone said earlier, "Society get's the police force that it deserves" :|. I've never heard that said before, but I think that's worth reflecting on.

OK, now you can all go ahead and flame me for being an unpatriotic traitor .

 

[Garry Edwards]

Basically I agree with Naboo 32. I think that we probably have the best policing in the world. But that doesn't mean that we should just sit back and accept police misconduct when it does occur, and it doesn't mean that senior police officers should lie to us to cover up misconduct or incompetence.

As far as the new MP guidelines on the policing of photographers, I hope that they do disseminate through to the police officers on the ground, and that the other police forces also adopt a similar approach, although I'm not holding my breath.I can't help wondering though whether the new Commissioner is trying to reverse a trend that was actually started by the police in the first place - the deliberate mis-use of anti-terrorism legislation as catch-all legislation to justify or rationalise police actions. Unlawful restriction of lawful photography is one example but of course there are others, for example the arrest of an elderly man under for heckling the then Prime Minister at the Labour party conference. How far does a police officer's interpretation of terrorism have to stretch to include dissent?

And I also feel that a lot of the public disquiet about policing arises from the actions of PCSO's, who are dressed up to look like police officers but who aren't, and so are far more likely to misunderstand or abuse powers. When the actions, or inactions of PCSO pretend coppers come to public notice then, as with the real police, their senior officers defend them. For example, a senior police officer said that 2 PCSO's who did absolutely nothing to save a drowning child acted properly because they weren't trained in water rescue. A few days later, 2 different PCSO's did rescue someone and their Chief Constable said that they were a credit to his force and had behaved impeccably.

No wonder some of us get confused...

Someone said earlier, "Society get's the police force that it deserves" . I've never heard that said before, but I think that's worth reflecting on.

That's actually a misquote, the original is along the lines of "A society gets the politicians it deserves" And maybe one of the problems is that the various police forces are really nothing more than government departments. Like other 'independent' bodies funded by government, they are not allowed to be independent at all.

 

[Marcel]

It all boils down to one thing tbh. Public relations.....which comes back to one thing....the media (and money)

That defines everything what happens. The above by Garry is a perfect example. How will the police look and can they be sued.

 

[Fionab]

I've also seen some pretty dodgy stuff on those police reality shows, like a bouncer "assisting" with the arrest of someone, kicking a guy in the crotch and the bouncer not being repremanded at all, despite the screams etc.

Don't get me wrong, there's good honest police etc etc, but there's some like in every profession, that really shouldn't be doing that job. It's just that their job is so much in the public eye and high profile.

if a police officer needs someone to assist them then im sorry but the person being detained surely would not put up that kind of fight if he/she was innocent....... I have NO sympathy for anything that happens to a criminal............ where is THEIR sympathy for their victims?

 

[Naboo32]

.....

That's actually a misquote, the original is along the lines of "A society gets the politicians it deserves" And maybe one of the problems is that the various police forces are really nothing more than government departments. Like other 'independent' bodies funded by government, they are not allowed to be independent at all.

Sorry, I was quoting this post from the first page, so it's an accurate quote of a misquote .....

Society gets the Police Force it deserves.........end of.

Just had to tie that up !

 

[boyfalldown]

if a police officer needs someone to assist them then im sorry but the person being detained surely would not put up that kind of fight if he/she was innocent....... I have NO sympathy for anything that happens to a criminal............ where is THEIR sympathy for their victims?

no and I agree about sympathy, but one of the things that makes the police's job very hard is the world is rarely as black and white as is made out in this thread. What, if in the example above the guy being arrested had learning difficulties and was simply scared and lashing out? Does that justify a bystanders thuggish behaviour then?

The police generally do a difficult job well, they have to make very difficult decisions very quickly, but there responsibilities extend to taking liberty and sometimes life, and that means an amount of accountability to the public as well, and like it or not that extends to those they arrest, a bystander assiting the police should be applauded, a bystander taking the oppertunity to behave as a thug should be prosecuted.

Cheers

Hugh

 

[fracster]

Society gets the Police Force it deserves.

Garry,T`was I...........

I think people forget that police officers are human beings,not computer generated machines.As such,they will make mistakes,errors of judgement and there will be the odd bad ones that discredit the many good ones.But that is true of any profession.

Society seems to have the "its not my problem,i`m not getting involved,whats in it for me,can I make a fast buck or I don`t care" attitude,the members of any police force are recruited from society, so should we be that surprised if some of the officers have those same standards?

I`m not having a pop at any Police Officers,Mrs Frac was one for 19 years,spent mainly dealing with child abuse,a lot of what they do is not reported by the media,but by hell,they get one thing wrong and the whole circus comes down on them. She has been out for some years now,but she always said " there is more crap from within the job,than dealing with the public",that may still be the case,I don`t know.

But all the haters of our supposed useless,fascist, bullying police should go and try living in another country for a few years,I did and I think our cops,on the whole,do a bloody good job.

Cue bitching about speed cameras and people getting done for driving on mobiles..........

 

[Holden Caulfield]

While I thank Photo Plod for his replies (I don’t want to get in to a slanging match either) there are a few threads in his replies that make interesting reading for my ‘Civilian self’.

1, The police are spending a disproportionate time focussing on "hostile reconnaissance” the notion that terrorists will not use up to date street mapping from Google Earth, but will take the risk of getting caught by taking pictures in the street. Has any terrorist been caught by police stopping him/her because they were taking pictures of railway lines?

2, There are so many ‘procedural changes’ and ‘new laws’ that then average copper cannot keep up so they crack on and sometimes get it wrong.

3, There is no law against "refusing to cooperate’ however there are plenty of other laws that can be enacted if you don’t, so better ‘cooperate’.

4, A ‘belief’ can be reasonable grounds to arrest you,

5, All large organisations suffer from ‘inefficiencies’ and ‘related problems’. It’s just that in the case the De Menzes case it was more a matter of health and safety than say ….well murder. and the officers concerned are still in the force and carrying guns.

6, Police officers, have to listen very hard to ‘pressure groups’ which we might call ‘civil rights’ groups.

7, Police officers are trained at University and the curriculum does include being ‘arrogant ‘ just lessons in assertiveness.

So to summarise, we have a police force on the verge of paranoia, who cannot keep up-to-date with laws and changes of procedure, You can refuse to cooperate however you will probably be nicked. Being shot in the head eight times by a police officer who keeps his job and his gun is down to inefficiencies’ and ‘related problems’.

Well I for one will sleep soundly in my bed tonight

 

[fracster]

It is a shame that we don`t have a Police opt out clause.Then all the moaning minnies can opt out of paying anything towards the Police, but then can`t call upon them when the crap hits the fan.I wonder how many would opt out?

 

[Holden Caulfield]

It is a shame that we don`t have a Police opt out clause.Then all the moaning minnies can opt out of paying anything towards the Police, but then can`t call upon them when the crap hits the fan.I wonder how many would opt out?

Yes like being shot eight times in the head .... quick call the police, no on second thoughts call the H+S exec.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

But all the haters of our supposed useless,fascist, bullying police should go and try living in another country for a few years,I did and I think our cops,on the whole,do a bloody good job.

Yes they do , BUT the Organisation itself has a culture of duplicity, and not taking resposability, when things go wrong that is what annoys people.

 

[boyfalldown]

Yes like being shot eight times in the head .... quick call the police, no on second thoughts call the H+S exec.

see this is what I mean about accountability - I actually believe that on the ground, on the day the officers involved in that did what they believed to be right.

Hiding your actions, attempting to lie to the media about it and everything that went afterwards is a completely different matter. :nono: and typifies everything wrong with the met.

Hugh

 

[Garry Edwards]

Yes they do , BUT the Organisation itself has a culture of duplicity, and not taking resposability, when things go wrong that is what annoys people.

Yes, that's very much the point I'm trying to make.

It's not a contradiction to be strongly supportive of the principles, most of the individuals involved and the intentions but to be highly critical of the lying B*****'s who spin, lie and cover up at every opportunity, even though they are the senior officers who should be setting a good example.

 

[fracster]

Unfortunately,senior police officers seem to be more politicians than police officers at the moment.So the fact that some of them may be seen as lying and underhanded,should come as no real surprise........

 

[Photo Plod]

While I thank Photo Plod for his replies (I don’t want to get in to a slanging match either) there are a few threads in his replies that make interesting reading for my ‘Civilian self’.

1, The police are spending a disproportionate time focussing on "hostile reconnaissance” the notion that terrorists will not use up to date street mapping from Google Earth, but will take the risk of getting caught by taking pictures in the street. Has any terrorist been caught by police stopping him/her because they were taking pictures of railway lines?

2, There are so many ‘procedural changes’ and ‘new laws’ that then average copper cannot keep up so they crack on and sometimes get it wrong.

3, There is no law against "refusing to cooperate’ however there are plenty of other laws that can be enacted if you don’t, so better ‘cooperate’.

4, A ‘belief’ can be reasonable grounds to arrest you,

5, All large organisations suffer from ‘inefficiencies’ and ‘related problems’. It’s just that in the case the De Menzes case it was more a matter of health and safety than say ….well murder. and the officers concerned are still in the force and carrying guns.

6, Police officers, have to listen very hard to ‘pressure groups’ which we might call ‘civil rights’ groups.

7, Police officers are trained at University and the curriculum does include being ‘arrogant ‘ just lessons in assertiveness.

So to summarise, we have a police force on the verge of paranoia, who cannot keep up-to-date with laws and changes of procedure, You can refuse to cooperate however you will probably be nicked. Being shot in the head eight times by a police officer who keeps his job and his gun is down to inefficiencies’ and ‘related problems’.

Well I for one will sleep soundly in my bed tonight

Holden, you are a master of paraphrasing.

1. I'm not in a position to discuss counter-terrorism operations in a photography forum. Firstly, it's overseen by a specialist department that I don't work in. Secondly, it would be impossible for me to quantify the value of any intelligence gained from stops & searches and subsequent action that may arise from it. Finally, I note your derision at my stopping of a man who had broken (allegedly) through a fence to take pictures of a railway line. Do you not want police officers to investigate anything, or would you rather I drove past and ignored it? Personally, I think such actions are reasonable.

2. Partially true. Unfortunately, most officers don't have the education of a barrister, and don't happen to have a multi-volume copy of Archbold to hand when they have to put the law into practice. Most of us just about manage to keep up, but if you ask me to explain the finer points of the Air Navigation Orders 2005, I might struggle. However, most officers (especially in specialist departments) are very familiar with the laws that their department investigates. If an officer is having difficulty on the street, there is usually other help they can turn to at the end of a radio. But yes, sometimes officers are mistaken.

3. There aren't "plenty of other laws". You've just invented that. I mentioned s89(2) of the Police Act...namely Obstruction, and even provided a link to it. I would be grateful if you could show me which laws someone would break by refusing to cooperate.

4. Yes. If I believe you have committed a crime, I may arrest you. I can rarely prove "beyond all reasonable doubt" at the scene, so you'll probably come into custody while I make further enquiries, and you may be released on bail if it's a lengthy investigation. See my post relating to s24 PACE. I can even arrest you if I believe you're about to commit a crime

5. I quite specifically said I was talking about bureaucratic inefficiencies. The De Menezes case was nothing to do with that.

6. Not quite sure what your point is, but yes...we do listen to the society we police. My interest in being a member of this forum is in photography, but I saw an opportunity with this thread to try and be a bit more helpful and show that most officers aren't as bad as we're made out to be. I don't see society as "them" and "us" when it comes to policing, though I understand concerns about some police actions driving a wedge between the police and the general public, and I have them myself. I could have contributed nothing to this thread and ignored it, but I have stuck my neck out fully expecting to have a very rough time of it; I would rather speak to people than hide. I've also avoided patronising management-speak, politics and regurgitating stories "I've heard".

7. Again, I made that point in response to someone recommending that we conduct training with more outside organisations. It is only Kent Police that train at Canterbury University, and most other forces conduct their training in-house with external speakers and trainers visiting for lessons where they can provide a special insight. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that the curriculum includes far more than just "being assertive". I could expand on this considerably more, but I don't really see the point.

I kind of get the idea that nothing I say is really making any difference, but thankfully your particular derisive scorn doesn't affect the way I do my job. As you sleep soundly in your bed, I am content in the knowledge that I will be going out to help people who need it most, that I will do a good job of it, and that I take pride in doing it.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I can even arrest you if I believe you're about to commit a crime

"Wearing a loud shirt in a built up area"? "Being in possesion of an offensive wife"? (c) Not the Nine O'clock News

 

[fracster]

"Wearing a loud shirt in a built up area"? "Being in possesion of an offensive wife"? (c) Not the Nine O'clock News

That was the norm in Suid Afrika..............

 

[Photo Plod]

"Wearing a loud shirt in a built up area"? "Being in possesion of an offensive wife"? (c) Not the Nine O'clock News

Before anyone thinks of the Department of Pre-Crime or the Thought Police, what I mean is that if I find someone (for example) with a brick in hand, arm raised and about to chuck it through someone's car window, I don't have to wait for the window to be smashed to smithereens before taking action. It's also relevant for various "Conspiracy" offences, where the police intervene at the planning stage of an offence before it is actually carried out. An example of that, say "Conspiracy to commit Robbery", could be where the police find a couple of guys in a white van with several sacks, two handguns, ammunition and balaclavas, after a tip-off that a bank robbery is going to be committed. Other offences have been committed (namely the firearms offence) but the Robbery actually hasn't happened. In this example, police don't actually have to wait for some poor person to have a gun pointed at them before taking action, because there is evidence that is what is going to happen.

 

[Tyke Tiler]

I kind of get the idea that nothing I say is really making any difference, but thankfully your particular derisive scorn doesn't affect the way I do my job. As you sleep soundly in your bed, I am content in the knowledge that I will be going out to help people who need it most, that I will do a good job of it, and that I take pride in doing it.

You are making a difference mate, we clearly need more who think, act and put in the same level of effort and considerations that you do.

To suggest or assume that all police officers are the same as the ones who 'veer off track' is outright foolish. To focus on police as the root of the problem is also just as foolish IMO.

But all the haters of our supposed useless,fascist, bullying police should go and try living in another country for a few years,I did and I think our cops,on the whole,do a bloody good job.

I'm with you there mate, but, I will add that when living in a country which has an education system that is so much more effective and successful than the UK it's comical, where your 'average joe' speaks much more than one language, when the NHS equivalent actually works because maybe everything that's not life threatening should not be free?, where the public transport is actually reliable and consistent, where banks can't steal money from it's customers with the likes of 'unplanned/complimentary' overdraft facility, outrageous fee's/charges and penalties, coupled with bogus LPI scams and profit generating schemes cooked up by satan worshipping demons, it makes you wonder why society can behave as it does in the UK.

'God Bless America! Or rather our connections and blind followings. :thumbsdown:

PC Hollis, (if I remember correctly )
I, as many others here are grateful to you for stepping in when your prime interest here is photography. I say again, good on you Sir.

When it's quite widely known that:

'A policemans lot is not a happy one...'

and yet you say things like:

As you sleep soundly in your bed, I am content in the knowledge that I will be going out to help people who need it most, that I will do a good job of it, and that I take pride in doing it.

It's abundantly clear, we need more of folk like you.

 

[sawman]

Photo Plod. You get my vote.

 

[Photo Plod]

Tomas,

Thanks for your post, I appreciate your sentiments

However, the real PC Hollis is this top-quality character from The Bill:

Anyway, back on topic.