Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead

[dolina]

xxx

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

All that is true, however you still see many people still using compacts and bridge cameras in tourist spots.
But phones are ubiquitous.

It is interesting that a high proportion of owners of interchangeable lens cameras only have one lens.

 

[dolina]

Click here for the point & shoot cameras released in the last 5 years.

Below are the number of models released per year

2022

- 0

2021

- 1

2020

- 6

2019

- 11

2018

- 18

2017

- 10

 

[dolina]

All that is true, however you still see many people still using compacts and bridge cameras in tourist spots.
But phones are ubiquitous.

It is interesting that a high proportion of owners of interchangeable lens cameras only have one lens.

Point & shoots we see were probably bought within the last 5-10 years.

Once they fall out of fashion or fall apart then the next replace would be... a smartphone?

And it is true. On average there are 2 or less EF lens per EF body. Odds are majority have 1 kit lens that is never removed from the dSLR body.

 

[sphexx]

I have never thought “point & shoot” was a very useful description. How are phone cameras not point & shoot?

 

[dolina]

The writing has been on the wall for a while, so not exactly new news ?

Lost opportunity for Canon, Nikon, FujiFilm, Panasonic, Olympus, Ricoh and Pentax to obsolete themselves by making their own Android smartphone rather than for Apple & Android to do it to them.

Apple obsoleted the iPod with the iPhone...

Now will we see point & shoots being 35mm full frame, APS-C or other large image sensor? Will Canon, Nikon and Sony encroach upon medium format (crop) cameras? I am banking that the RF L lenses of Canon were designed for medium format bodies.

 

[KIPAX]

I do at least 2 holidays a year and lots of days out.. I have 30 thousand pounds worth of camera gear.... But when I go out wiht the missus I take the Panasonic DMC-LX7 .. Iit does perfect and i would be lost without it fits in pocket , takes fantastic pics and i have full control if i want it but mostly use as point and shoot as intended ... you can pick them up for £150 on ebay now haha

I love my old point and shoot

PS i dont trust my phone to do the same job.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Lost opportunity for Canon, Nikon, FujiFilm, Panasonic, Olympus, Ricoh and Pentax to obsolete themselves by making their own Android smartphone rather than for Apple & Android to do it to them.

There seems to be a lack of context here.

The companies you mention above are each part of very large conglomerates, each with fingers in many pies. While some or all of them may decide to stop making general purpose cameras, all of them have very large presences in the supply of specialised cameras to technical markets such as medicine, security and manufacturing.

My guess is that Canon, Nikon and Panasonic will retain their interest in general purpose cameras the longest, both because they have established markets and because they're a useful brand leader that keeps the companies' names in front of decision makers. Olympus has enough troubles that I'm surprised they haven't axed the camera division already but they may feel it's still a revenue stream and don't they just need one now. Pentax has been part of Ricoh for many years and that group lost its credibility in the market for general purpose cameras long since, so it's the company I'd expect to see jump ship first.

As to phones, those companies not already in the market will only enter by aquisition of an existing brand. Starting from the ground floor in such a competitive market is probably not a good idea.

 

[lindsay]

At the same time, I agree with you. Why can't a manufacturer glue what is essentially an Android phone to the back of their DSLR or MILC that would allow me to insert a SIM card and upload / backup my photos directly from the camera to online storage, share them on Social Media etc ? Well, probably because you can do that with a phone these days and the vast majority of people who use phones for photos, so it is likely a costly gamble in an industry that is in decline...

I can also do that with my Olympus EM1 Mk2 - I shot a lot on a day out, sat on the beach and tehered my camera tot the OL Share app on the phone, and from there uploaded to FB a few, all in a matter of minutes.

 

[stickytape]

That's good to hear, but what I am suggesting is to have Android integrated as part of the camera's OS, so this can be done directly on the camera without having to connect to another device (phone).

Samsung did this brilliant back in 2014 with the Samsung GN120 A - interchangeable lens model with 20 MP APS C sensor and a 4.8” screen running Android. I have one, and paired with the excellent 16-50 F2 and sometimes the 18-200 OIS, it’s great. Took it out yesterday actually for the holiday weekend trip.

 

[lindsay]

So you then have android or ios versions of the cameras? Isn't this why HuaWei, using their own os, grafted Leica lenses into their top phones instead of the other way round? I'm sure camera makers don't want to enter the phone market, but neither would they want the overhead of supporting two or more different operating systems.

 

[dolina]

Some interesting camera shipment stats

Smartphones vs film & digital still cameras

Digital camers: dSLR vs Mirrorless vs Point & Shoots (no smartphone)

Digital camers: dSLR vs Mirrorless (no smartphone or point & shoot)

 

[garryknight]

I have never thought “point & shoot” was a very useful description. How are phone cameras not point & shoot?

For those of us that use pro camera apps on our phones (including ProCamera, of course) they're not. We can take as much control over the focusing, exposure, etc, as the hardware will allow us. But for the vast majority, they're not only point and shoot - they're point, 'zoom' as much as possible while actually cropping most of the pixels out, and then shoot and not even wonder why it's such a bad quality photo because people don't know the difference.

Samsung did this brilliant back in 2014 with the Samsung GN120 A - interchangeable lens model with 20 MP APS C sensor and a 4.8” screen running Android. I have one, and paired with the excellent 16-50 F2 and sometimes the 18-200 OIS, it’s great. Took it out yesterday actually for the holiday weekend trip.

Also the EK-GC110, or 'Galaxy Camera'. I had one of these back in the day. With 16MP 1/2.3" sensor, 21x optical zoom, a 720p touch screen, 120 fps slo-mo video, voice control, and the full Android experience (minus phone calls), it seemed to be ahead of its time. On the other hand, it was dog slow and could be fiddly to operate. But if this kind of zoom lens is now seen as 'old-fashioned' I doubt that anyone will ever make anything like it again.

 

[dolina]

That is interesting, I had not heard of that.

Admittedly, Samsung is not a brand I think of as being associated with cameras (other than in their phones).

From what I have read, Samsung discontinued their camera line back in 2016. I imagine this was due to lack of sales.

So maybe my idea has no market, oh well

I won a Samsung Mirrorless Camera at a raffle that required the winner to claim it on the spot.

Did not mind them giving it to a friend as the mount is a dead end.

 

[dolina]

So you then have android or ios versions of the cameras? Isn't this why HuaWei, using their own os, grafted Leica lenses into their top phones instead of the other way round? I'm sure camera makers don't want to enter the phone market, but neither would they want the overhead of supporting two or more different operating systems.

Odds are all those camera brands would be Android as Apple does not license out their OS to 3rd parties anymore.

Huawei's collaboration with Leica is co-branding,

Leica even had a Japan-only collab with Sharp

View: https://youtu.be/PNOgsmtdc3k

 

[swanseamale47]

I can sort of see why, my last P&S was a half decent Fuji, from maybe 6 /8 years ago, compared to my phone from the same time there was little to choose quality wise (I did a comparrison) the only real advantage was the zoom on the camera which my old phone didn't have. Fast forward to my new phone last week and the phone has improved vastly, I compared it to a year old bridge camera and the phones miles better but again doesn't have the zoom range. Thing is I always have a phone on me anyway, the quality is plenty good enough even for a large print, the camera has every function known to man (seems that way) it does 4k video, night shots, has a 1.8 lens. Whats not to like?
For me the only downside is it's harder to get the images/video off the phone, I haven't yet got to grips with the cloud.. well I am an old git.

 

[4wd]

They are still a lot easier to use in many situations than a phone, especially if you have a tilting screen.
The better ones will match larger cameras but are still pocketable.

 

[dolina]

Interesting, thanks for sharing that. Going by those graphs, even MILC are are having a tough time..

At the same time, it is not all doom and gloom for the camera companies, many of them are like Sony, huge companies that are involved in many different industries...

IIRC Sony owns the top 50% of the smartphone image sensor market. They make more money from smartphone parts than any digital still camera brand.

This is what funded Sony's image sensor tech that have ISO sensitivity and dynamic range superiority over any Canon or Nikon engineered tech.

 

[sphexx]

For those of us that use pro camera apps on our phones (including ProCamera, of course) they're not. We can take as much control over the focusing, exposure, etc, as the hardware will allow us. But for the vast majority, they're not only point and shoot - they're point, 'zoom' as much as possible while actually cropping most of the pixels out, and then shoot and not even wonder why it's such a bad quality photo because people don't know the difference.

That’s sort of my point. Some at least of the compact cameras are not “point & shoot” for similar reasons. I’ve never heard a “non-photographer” call his/her camera a p&s, it’s almost entirely a denigrators description by enthusiasts with “big” cameras .

‘Fixed lens compact’ might be a better description — that would cover phone cams as well though some are getting to be not quite so compact

 

[garryknight]

That’s sort of my point. Some at least of the compact cameras are not “point & shoot” for similar reasons. I’ve never heard a “non-photographer” call his/her camera a p&s, it’s almost entirely a denigrators description by enthusiasts with “big” cameras .

Yes, I wasn't disagreeing with you. But I think in many, if not most cases it might just be lazy re-use of the term without thinking much about it. I've used it in talking about my own cameras.

 

[stickytape]

For those of us that use pro camera apps on our phones (including ProCamera, of course) they're not. We can take as much control over the focusing, exposure, etc, as the hardware will allow us. But for the vast majority, they're not only point and shoot - they're point, 'zoom' as much as possible while actually cropping most of the pixels out, and then shoot and not even wonder why it's such a bad quality photo because people don't know the difference.



Also the EK-GC110, or 'Galaxy Camera'. I had one of these back in the day. With 16MP 1/2.3" sensor, 21x optical zoom, a 720p touch screen, 120 fps slo-mo video, voice control, and the full Android experience (minus phone calls), it seemed to be ahead of its time. On the other hand, it was dog slow and could be fiddly to operate. But if this kind of zoom lens is now seen as 'old-fashioned' I doubt that anyone will ever make anything like it again.

Ah yeah, that's the budget model. I'm talking about this one here. https://www.samsung.com/uk/cameras/galaxy-nx-gn120zka/

 

[dolina]

I have never thought “point & shoot” was a very useful description. How are phone cameras not point & shoot?

Point & shoots...

- lacks advanced computational photography

- primarily function is to record images

- cannot edit photos in a Photoshop-level way.

- cannot share photos from the camera directly to the Internet without a 3rd party device

- do not have a SIM slot

- do not have cloud backup

- do not have a Find Me feature

- cannot be bought through a 2-4 year subscription amortized on a monthly basis

- is not being bought by people anymore because of the very specialized nature of the device.

 

[woof woof]

I used to quite like P&S cameras or rather small cameras that had controls and could shoot raws but these days I think 1" sensor cameras are now the lowest quality I'm willing to accept in a camera.

I do not like phone photography. Holding an oblong screen in front of my face and jabbing at it is a joyless experience for me. I do get that it's convenient and it's something that many people always have with them and good luck to them but I just don't find it enjoyable.

 

[LCPete]

I used to quite like P&S cameras or rather small cameras that had controls and could shoot raws but these days I think 1" sensor cameras are now the lowest quality I'm willing to accept in a camera.

I do not like phone photography. Holding an oblong screen in front of my face and jabbing at it is a joyless experience for me. I do get that it's convenient and it's something that many people always have with them and good luck to them but I just don't find it enjoyable.

Agree even though my phone takes pretty good shots in good light I still prefer to use a ‘proper’ camera, but I’m probably just set in my ways

 

[dolina]

I used to quite like P&S cameras or rather small cameras that had controls and could shoot raws but these days I think 1" sensor cameras are now the lowest quality I'm willing to accept in a camera.

I do not like phone photography. Holding an oblong screen in front of my face and jabbing at it is a joyless experience for me. I do get that it's convenient and it's something that many people always have with them and good luck to them but I just don't find it enjoyable.

The Volume up/down button both on the smartphone and the wired earphones can be used as a shutter. I also despise tapping the screen to take a photo but in terms of UI it is most visually straightforward to non-photogs.

What I like about smartphones is how large the LiveView or "EVF" is. Some go as large as nearly 7-inch. This is useful when you want an easy to see preview prior to clicking the "shutter".

My hope is that a future iPhone will have a 1-inch image sensor.

 

[sphexx]

Point & shoots...

- lacks advanced computational photography

- primarily function is to record images

- cannot edit photos in a Photoshop-level way.

- cannot share photos from the camera directly to the Internet without a 3rd party device

- do not have a SIM slot

- do not have cloud backup

- do not have a Find Me feature

- cannot be bought through a 2-4 year subscription amortized on a monthly basis

- is not being bought by people anymore because of the very specialized nature of the device.

Includes all DSLRS for a start .. possible exception of the last item.

 

[dolina]

Includes all DSLRS for a start .. possible exception of the last item.

Point & shoots appeal to a general audience like smartphones.

Smartphones gets "pushed" to subscribers every 2-4 years.

You'd have to "pull" to get any digital still camera.

You can do more things with a smartphone while digital still cameras are essentially 1 trick ponies.

dSLRs & mirrorless appeal to

- hobbyists that have discretionary funds to buy them

- working photographers that derive an income from them

 

[woof woof]

The Volume up/down button both on the smartphone and the wired earphones can be used as a shutter. I also despise tapping the screen to take a photo but in terms of UI it is most visually straightforward to non-photogs.

What I like about smartphones is how large the LiveView or "EVF" is. Some go as large as nearly 7-inch. This is useful when you want an easy to see preview prior to clicking the "shutter".

My hope is that a future iPhone will have a 1-inch image sensor.

I think screens still need to be jabbed at to select the point of focus, they're generally an ergonomic handling nightmare for photography and there will at some times be problems seeing the screen in decent light. Yes screens are BIG but you hold them at a distance which reduces the percentage of your vision that they fill whereas a camera EVF will be closer and essentially fill most of your view.

 

[dolina]

I think screens still need to be jabbed at to select the point of focus, they're generally an ergonomic handling nightmare for photography and there will at some times be problems seeing the screen in decent light. Yes screens are BIG but you hold them at a distance which reduces the percentage of your vision that they fill whereas a camera EVF will be closer and essentially fill most of your view.

As demonstrated by year 2021 worldwide shipping figures there are 3.01 million point & shoots last year.

A lot of cameras marketed within the last 5 years allows end users to tap on the LiveView screen for their preferred AF point.

Many others uses auto face/eye detect.

Smartphones selling for more than $430 have screens bright enough to compete with full sun.

If I want quality I still fall back to a full frame or APS-C camera whether it be a point & shoot or interchangable lens camera.

If I was married with children I'd opt for a medium format FujiFILM GFX 100s with these lenses.

- GF 32-64mm f/4 R LM WR
- GF 45-100mm f/4 R LM OIS WR
- GF 100-200mm f/5.6 R LM OIS WR

Then eventually faster primes

 

[redhed17]

I'm glad I got the Sony RX100III and RX100V (both used). The quality is excellent. I never use the phone to take pics apart from documents, or things I need to remember. I got a new phone last week, 48Mp camera apparently, but the camera on it wasn't even a consideration in the choice of phone. I have the RX100V with me almost all the time.

It will be a pity if Sony have stopped the RX100 line, but what a series of cameras they produced.

I'm considering a RX100VI for the longer range to replace the RX100III, which could give me a good range of features for times when space is at a premium with the two cameras.

Btw, I think there is still a small market for compact cameras, but unless someone is producing the sensors, smaller manufacturers will not have a supplier. Sony have made good use of the 20Mp sensor (evolved slightly over time) in the RX100 range, improving everything around the sensor.

 

[Baloo]

Before we start tramping the dirt down on Point and Shoot are these not Point and Shoot and do they not represent the latest trend?

11 of the best instant cameras for real photos you can hold and treasure

These are the instant cameras to pick for retro film photography

www.goodhousekeeping.com

I actually think that people will soon start falling out of love with their pictures only being on hard drives and start wanting prints again. But what do I know I am the idiot that kept all my vinyl records........................................................!

 

[dolina]

Before we start tramping the dirt down on Point and Shoot are these not Point and Shoot and do they not represent the latest trend?

11 of the best instant cameras for real photos you can hold and treasure

These are the instant cameras to pick for retro film photography

www.goodhousekeeping.com

I actually think that people will soon start falling out of love with their pictures only being on hard drives and start wanting prints again. But what do I know I am the idiot that kept all my vinyl records........................................................!

I have cousins in college who wanted to buy these film cameras. It's a trendy thing among their age group as their parents are hesitant to give them $1k full frame bodies & $1k lenses unless that's their degree in Uni.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

I also love my Point and shoot and as it's really small ( much smaller than a smart phone) I use it almost daily and it's always with me. Smart phones are for me far to fragile, expensive and way too big ! That said in most cases you do see people using phones much more than point and shoots I just don't want to carry a £500+ plank of wood/glass in my pocket ! I never did go with the crowd I still love my Holga.

 

[sphexx]

I have cousins in college who wanted to buy these film cameras. It's a trendy thing among their age group as their parents are hesitant to give them $1k full frame bodies & $1k lenses unless that's their degree in Uni.

Didn’t i read somewhere recently that as far as the camera division goes Fuji makes most of its profit from Instax?

 

[dolina]

Didn’t i read somewhere recently that as far as the camera division goes Fuji makes most of its profit from Instax?

I frequently visit bhphotovideo.com/ for research and just noticed film cameras being more prominently promoted today. So what you could be true.

But I'm not the market for it as I see it as a novelty.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

There seems to be a lack of context here.

The companies you mention above are each part of very large conglomerates, each with fingers in many pies. While some or all of them may decide to stop making general purpose cameras, all of them have very large presences in the supply of specialised cameras to technical markets such as medicine, security and manufacturing.

My guess is that Canon, Nikon and Panasonic will retain their interest in general purpose cameras the longest, both because they have established markets and because they're a useful brand leader that keeps the companies' names in front of decision makers. Olympus has enough troubles that I'm surprised they haven't axed the camera division already but they may feel it's still a revenue stream and don't they just need one now. Pentax has been part of Ricoh for many years and that group lost its credibility in the market for general purpose cameras long since, so it's the company I'd expect to see jump ship first.

As to phones, those companies not already in the market will only enter by aquisition of an existing brand. Starting from the ground floor in such a competitive market is probably not a good idea.

Olympus have dumped their camera brand They sold it. Olympus cameras are no longer made or sold by them. They are becoming known as OM cameras.

 

[digitaria]

While looking at flashguns, I noticed that Yongnuo does an Android camera which resembles a lens bolted to a phone.

永诺 YN450M M4/3 画幅 4G 智能相机 升级版M43卡口-Shenzhen Yongnuo Photographic Equipment Co., Ltd.

YONGNUO MIRRORLESS CAMERA YN450M (Updated) - Yongnuo Rumors

After a YN450 announced in 2018 that never came out, except a few unit on the grey market in China, Yongnuo announced an updated version of its mirrorless camera thingy, the YN450M. So what’s new? Well, pretty simple. The main difference is the mount. The YN450 already had a micro 4/3 sensor...

www.yongnuorumors.com

Personally, I only use a phone for photography when there is no alternative. Holding the thing appropriately for a landscape shot is a challenge in itself!

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

I was wondering just how close we are getting between good dedicated cameras and smartphones. So have created this thread hopefully should be interesting.

Dedicated camera vs Smart phone camera

 

[Mike_T]

While looking at flashguns, I noticed that Yongnuo does an Android camera which resembles a lens bolted to a phone.

永诺 YN450M M4/3 画幅 4G 智能相机 升级版M43卡口-Shenzhen Yongnuo Photographic Equipment Co., Ltd.

YONGNUO MIRRORLESS CAMERA YN450M (Updated) - Yongnuo Rumors

After a YN450 announced in 2018 that never came out, except a few unit on the grey market in China, Yongnuo announced an updated version of its mirrorless camera thingy, the YN450M. So what’s new? Well, pretty simple. The main difference is the mount. The YN450 already had a micro 4/3 sensor...

www.yongnuorumors.com

Personally, I only use a phone for photography when there is no alternative. Holding the thing appropriately for a landscape shot is a challenge in itself!

That would be particularly awkward to hold up to your head, wouldn't it?

 

[dolina]

Last 6 years worldwide shipments of digital still cameras.

Year	2017	2018	2019	2020	2021	2022 forecast
Total Cameras	24,978,486	19,423,371	15,216,957	8,886,292	8,361,521	7,850,000
Point & Shoot	13,302,797	8,663,574	6,755,467	3,578,643	3,013,250	2,560,000
Total SLR & Mirrorless	11,675,689	10,759,797	8,461,490	5,307,649	5,348,271	5,290,000
SLR	7,595,708	6,620,999	4,504,987	2,374,569	2,241,772	-
Mirrorless	4,079,981	4,138,798	3,956,503	2,933,080	3,106,499	-