Pocket money part timers

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Check out his other posts - theres a bridge somewhere which billy goats are crossing with impunity
 
Studi0488 said:
Finally we agree on something, assuming you not talking about me? :shrug:
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:hug2: - no i meant RBY - i'd suspect we probably agree on all sorts of things in reality , its just lost in translation on the internet
 
well I'll confess to doing a couple of weekend warrior jobs...

only because the 2 couples couldn't afford the local pro's rates, and in their opinion (not mine) ..examples of my photo's were "as near as damn it as good as, if not better in some"

I agree, no studio, no pension etc no overheads to pay.... which I will agree takes up a whole lot of pennies, but at the end of the day if someone could only afford £x, it's not for those charging £y to complain.

And yes, I did declare the "earnings" minus expenses to HRMC and having a wife as an accountant, I sent them £3.50 in coinage...:lol: (taking out PL Insurance cost a bit!)
 
Lynton said:
only because the 2 couples couldn't afford the local pro's rates, and in their opinion (not mine) ..examples of my photo's were "as near as damn it as good as, if not better in some"

I agree, no studio, no pension etc no overheads to pay.... which I will agree takes up a whole lot of pennies, but at the end of the day if someone could only afford £x, it's not for those charging £y to complain.
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I've stated in many wedding threads that customers come in tiers, and each tier has a price they can afford to pay.

I don't care about the low cost £200 weddings, although I do them now and then if I have nothing better booked and it's for someone I know. The £1000+ aren't the people I aim for either, it's currently a purely digital package I over and I am only in competition with those in the same price bracket (which seems to be an awful lot around here :P )
 
big soft moose said:
true , although if you arent making a profit after costs of gear etc they don't necessarily insist on a tax return ( I went through several years like this and after year 2 hmrc advised that a return wasnt necessary until a profit was being made, but records should be kept in case of a spot check)

on the wider discussion there's no reason for someone charging a very low rate to be a threat to businesses who charge a lot more - because they are essentially sweeping up customers who wouldn't have been of interest to the established pro anyway.

someone who charges £1000 per day isnt going to lose realistic customers to someone who charges £100 per day because its a different market, they are far more threatened by another business charging £950/day for a comparable product.

as i've said before a porsche dealership isnt threatened by a secondhand car salesmen opening up across the road selling pre used protons and kias. They are however threatened by a lotus dealeship opening next door.
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This does seem something on a grey area to me.

On the one hand I can see say the young couple with limated money to spend obviously preffering a part timer to nothing at all and likely accepting lesser quality.

Equally though I don't think the average layman differentiates event photography to the same degree they do say a Porsche and a Kia. Generally I think theres an underestimation of the cost and skill needed to provide this service which in this case is also combined with the need to meet various other costs.

With that in mind I can see people who do have the money to spend on a full time higher cost pro going for a cheap option then simpley shifting that money to some other cost of the event(catering, hall hire, a band etc).
 
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Moreorless said:
This does seem something on a grey area to me.

On the one hand I can see say the young couple with limated money to spend obviously preffering a part timer to nothing at all and likely accepting lesser quality.

Equally though I don't think the average layman differentiates event photography to the same degree they do say a Porsche and a Kia. Generally I think theres an underestimation of the cost and skill needed to provide this service which in this case is also combined with the need to meet various other costs.

With that in mind I can see people who do have the money to spend on a full time higher cost pro going for a cheap option then simpley shifting that money to some other cost of the event(catering, hall hire, a band etc).
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Yes there is an underestimation by customers of the cost and skill involved, that's our job to educate them. And if someone who hasn't put the effort into getting their skills and gear in order is stealing our work, then they're either brilliant salesmen, we're terrible salesmen or the customer is getting what they deserve (we've put a great case but they're unprepared to pay for the proper service). There's a post bemoaning 'pro's' in another thread recently - where some pro wedding photographer is reported as providing crap work and charging £500, the poster was surprised when I pointed out that £500 isn't really the going rate for a 'pro', and what they'd witnessed wasn't really 'professional work'.

But I've said this before - I disagree with the Porsche - Kia anaology. As I'd put myself close to the Kia point in the market. My customers get a great service and a perfectly good product. It might not have the prestige handmade leather interior or cache of the big brand, but it does exactly what you'd expect of it.

The bottom feeders are selling products with dodgy MOT certificates, no warranty and dangerously bald tyres. They're lots cheaper than a new Kia but their products are often unfit for purpose. They're closer to the 2nd hand car dealer, working out of his home address.
 
Phil V said:
But I've said this before - I disagree with the Porsche - Kia anaology. As I'd put myself close to the Kia point in the market. My customers get a great service and a perfectly good product. It might not have the prestige handmade leather interior or cache of the big brand, but it does exactly what you'd expect of it.

The bottom feeders are selling products with dodgy MOT certificates, no warranty and dangerously bald tyres. They're lots cheaper than a new Kia but their products are often unfit for purpose. They're closer to the 2nd hand car dealer, working out of his home address.
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without going off topic my mates experience with a sorrento suggests that kia is a perfect analogy - it appears what you can expect is unreliable performance that breaks down inconveniently at unexpected moments :lol:

but whatever - on topic my basic point was someone selling genuine high quality product and service isn't threatened by someone selling low quality product and service cheap, because the 'clients' who think its a good idea to spend 100 quid on their wedding photos were never going to be prepared to pay a realistic ammount anyway, and the people who want high quality service and are prepared to pay for it are not going to be taken in by someone whose portfolio consists of shots from one wedding workshop.
 
I lost the plot half way through the thread.....

But I want to highlight what Harvey Nikon said in his first post in this thread....and something a professional photographer mentioned to me years ago while I toured his studio in Holland....professionals have to use the equipment, charge the fees and produce the goods that are beyond the scope of the majority of non-professional photographers, ie the abundance of amateurs capable of making high standard wedding photographs simply encourage working photographers up their game - those couples able to afford costlier photographers will benefit from better quality, in theory....

Does the increased number of part-time photographers affect the business turnover of full-time photographers - it's difficult to say - the moribund economy might force couples to cut back on some wedding expenses, whereas during an era of prosperity couples may feel more comfortable employing full time photographers at higher cost.
 
Full time photographers need to remember that they were once part-time, you have to start somewhere. These "pocket-money" photographers may well be the next gen of full time pro's. They need to be working, for little even, to gather funds for the necessary gear to level up. Simple as.
 
welshwizard645 said:
I lost the plot half way through the thread.....

But I want to highlight what Harvey Nikon said in his first post in this thread....and something a professional photographer mentioned to me years ago while I toured his studio in Holland....professionals have to use the equipment, charge the fees and produce the goods that are beyond the scope of the majority of non-professional photographers, ie the abundance of amateurs capable of making high standard wedding photographs simply encourage working photographers up their game - those couples able to afford costlier photographers will benefit from better quality, in theory....

Does the increased number of part-time photographers affect the business turnover of full-time photographers - it's difficult to say - the moribund economy might force couples to cut back on some wedding expenses, whereas during an era of prosperity couples may feel more comfortable employing full time photographers at higher cost.
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The problem I'd say with event photography though is that often this is not what these people are being hired on. By its very nature someone isnt buying a finished product but rather the expectations of that product and this naturally leaves them more open to going with a cheap product that ultimately fails to meet their expectations.

Equally I suspect that in many of these cases there isnt any malicous intent from the photographer, they've simpley either underestimad the skill and equipment needed for a task or overestimated there own ability. The upshot of that is I'd say that while expereince will likely drive many of these people out of business there are always going to be more stepping up and making the same mistake.

That to me also hints at the root cause of the issue, a photographic industry that has consistantly downplayed the skill still needed to achieve results and the limatations of there consumer level equipment.

Of course that doesnt mean that there might not be a natural shift in the market anyway even if consumers were buying an easily observable end product but both factors are IMHO significant.
 
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Gary Coyle said:
And are we to suppose every single self employed business owner including you does the same, dont treat us like Children
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I am not self employed, I am employed, and yes, as we are B2B we declare everything, paye, vat, corporation tax to the penny.
 
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Cagey75 said:
Full time photographers need to remember that they were once part-time, you have to start somewhere. These "pocket-money" photographers may well be the next gen of full time pro's. They need to be working, for little even, to gather funds for the necessary gear to level up. Simple as.
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Maybe most, certainly not all.
 
Why is it said so much that Full timers were part time at some point???

I know a few but most I have known over the years were always pro. working their way up in companies and government photographic depts. Then some take the plunge as I did.

And is it always weddings and portraits that everyone does as self employed?????

Baffling!!!!

Craig it's your business thought right?

Like us? We started out then had to go Ltd. Now we are employed by the business..... Never seen so much going to tax..... wonder why we bother.
 
Daryl said:
Why is it said so much that Full timers were part time at some point???

I know a few but most I have known over the years were always pro. working their way up in companies and government photographic depts. Then some take the plunge as I did.

And is it always weddings and portraits that everyone does as self employed?????

Baffling!!!!

Craig it's your business thought right?

Like us? We started out then had to go Ltd. Now we are employed by the business..... Never seen so much going to tax..... wonder why we bother.
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Why so many???????'s

Working their way up? You call that pro level? And do get a grip. It's becoming apparent here that anyone who deems themselves to be pro is a bit of a snob and self righteous to boot. You trying to tell me you were pro from the moment you picked up a camera? I highly doubt it. So you were part time or a beginner at se point. Get over yourself.

????!!!
 
Cagey75 said:
Why so many???????'s

Working their way up? You call that pro level? And do get a grip. It's becoming apparent here that anyone who deems themselves to be pro is a bit of a snob and self righteous to boot. You trying to tell me you were pro from the moment you picked up a camera? I highly doubt it. So you were part time or a beginner at se point. Get over yourself.

????!!!
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Daryl is quite right. Being a professional is not the same as being professional ... see the distinction? If you earn your wages from doing something then you are a professional at that something and it's not quality, experience or attitude related.

Of the half dozen professional (i.e. they earn their living from photography) photographers local to me I'm the only one that did it part-time. The others were either employed full-time by newspapers, the police, the miitary or other organisations as photographers before working for themselves.
 
That is not what he meant at all, he meant pro as in full time. Nowhere was professional attitude mentioned or hinted at.

I am as professional in my manner when dealing with people as anyone out there, I've never had an unhappy customer, always smiling after and delighted with the results. But I'm no full time pro. This topic is about full time working pro's V part-timers , or as someone put "pocket-money" shooters. Nothing to do with professionalism like you think. See the difference?

And someone getting excited and defensive about someone saying everyone was part-time at one point is far from a professional attitude. I meant beginner/part-time/trying to break in ... I doubt that many went direct into a full time professional career from the off.
 
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Cagey. Yes I was paid full time . Left college. worked 2 years in studio and location doing archeology photographic unit.

you want snobby then here goes. i can give you a list longer than your ego..... if needed..

Not SELF EMPLOYED. Nothing GREAT about self employed. just more **NORTY** paper work and little photography.


you want to dive into it

GET A JOB IN PHOTOGRAPHY with a company. Like 1000's of others do. Or do it the hard expensive way and maybe get nowhere because of the lame excuse of paying bills and family etc.

Sorry to the mods but I just lost my temper at this guy Cagey who does not put his real name or details on just so he can gob off at people.

Cagey. I have never ever been part time. Always full employed even when learning the trade.

Paid and employed by a photography company, or dont they exist????

If you want to break in go work scenes of crime photographic unit or work in Argos or Tesco photographic unit. they have in house.

Loads of jobs out there were togs can pros and not have the crap title of self employed. which is over rated!.
 
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reason for that post before you had a pop at me is there are many ways of becoming a full timer or Pro tog.

No need to do the it on the side. Go find a job with someone/company/Government as a photographer.

much easier.

But no I all ever read on here is I need £35k a year or £40k. (or the wife will leave me) Well I have never earned that. so stick to the day jobs or do it because you love it.

I love this industry love it.... there are many jobs out there in photography.
 
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Wow you don't half rant ...

You certainly do not have a professional attitude, probably a good job you don't free lance.

It's not me who has the ego here, my original posts was nowt to do with you in the first place, you just decided to get all hot and bothered about it. You type like you're hammering the keys in over excitement, get a grip.
 
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It was not a rant Cagey.

It was if read.

Why do so many think that you do it on the side before doing it full time.

Get a job with someone and you're there. done.

Learn all you can from working and trained as a photographer.

so much hard work and spare time taken up on having a day job as a pencil pusher and then working weekends and evenings as a photographer.

I don't get it.... much easier. But as has been said..... It's what you can live on.
 
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Well, since my post wasn't aimed at you to begin with, it kind of was a bit of a lash-back rant for no real reason. Why get so defensive about it? If you went straight into a full time, wage earning job after college - great! But that's rare from what I know. Most pro's I know started out working either for free, or part time, making ends meet when they could, but always learning along the way. there is NOTHING wrong with starting off slow and building your name. Not everyone wants to work for a company, I sure don't. I'm quite happy doing my own thing whenever a job comes along. That is part time, and I find nothing wrong with it. I put 14 years into working for companies in other areas outside photography - got me nowhere, but a busted back and needing surgery.

I can't stand so-called pro's [and remember, I do not mean you personally!] putting amateurs or "part-timers" down, as if they were a scurge. You ALL, pro or not, had to begin somewhere.
 
A little off topic, but would be interested to hear your opinions.

What if someone's income is a lot higher than can be earned as a full time Pro, but they enjoy the odd weekend wedding shoot. What would be your advice to them?
 
Most of the best work I've ever seen is by hobbists. Got the time and keep the fun in to it.

Full time and running a biz you get miss all the experimenting and craft side to it.

I can't stand so-called pro's [and remember, I do not mean you personally!] putting amateurs or "part-timers" down, as if they were a scurge. You ALL, pro or not, had to begin somewhere.
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Best way of learning and getting into Photography business is work for a some one as i said.

All mistakes in the learning process do not cost you your rep or any expense to you either.

Doing it on your own is slow and can be costly. i was not having a dig.
 
hi Chris, i can't speak for anyone else. But why on Earth would you put your self throught the hassle and a the stress?

Weddings are hardly a hobby.

If I was on a damn good earner i would in the studio or location photographing women.

Weddings are not what I would call a hobby. As well as kit you need insurance part time, full time or even for a favour. something goes wrong or trip over your kit bag hello law suit.

As a hobby tog many more things I would be doing. weddings? no way.
 
Cagey75 said:
Well, since my post wasn't aimed at you to begin with, it kind of was a bit of a lash-back rant for no real reason. Why get so defensive about it? If you went straight into a full time, wage earning job after college - great! But that's rare from what I know. Most pro's I know started out working either for free, or part time, making ends meet when they could, but always learning along the way. there is NOTHING wrong with starting off slow and building your name. Not everyone wants to work for a company, I sure don't. I'm quite happy doing my own thing whenever a job comes along. That is part time, and I find nothing wrong with it. I put 14 years into working for companies in other areas outside photography - got me nowhere, but a busted back and needing surgery.

I can't stand so-called pro's [and remember, I do not mean you personally!] putting amateurs or "part-timers" down, as if they were a scurge. You ALL, pro or not, had to begin somewhere.
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Really I think the problem with this debate is that your dealing with two very different situations.

The new photographer working his way up honiestly and devolping his skills and the new photographer either knowingly or unknowingly exploiting client ignorance to offer a cheap but sub standard service.

This whole debate really makes me glad that landscape/macro prints are my interest, selling a product rather than a service on a small scale makes for much less worry.
 
Daryl said:
If I was on a damn good earner i would in the studio or location photographing women.
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Lolll brilliant!

Off to speak with Mrs Greek and tell her this is the Advice I was given by a man that knows.
 
Cagey75 said:
That is not what he meant at all, he meant pro as in full time. Nowhere was professional attitude mentioned or hinted at.

I am as professional in my manner when dealing with people as anyone out there, I've never had an unhappy customer, always smiling after and delighted with the results. But I'm no full time pro. This topic is about full time working pro's V part-timers , or as someone put "pocket-money" shooters. Nothing to do with professionalism like you think. See the difference?

And someone getting excited and defensive about someone saying everyone was part-time at one point is far from a professional attitude. I meant beginner/part-time/trying to break in ... I doubt that many went direct into a full time professional career from the off.
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Sorry, you obviously have problems with English comprehension so I'll not bother arguing the point further. Maybe you should re-read what you, Daryl and I actually wrote.
 
Well I for one love running my business, even if it is alongside my own full time job. It allows me to earn more money and have a better standard of life. My business is full time even if I am part time. I doubt I'd earn the same working as a photographer as I do now unless I was very lucky but will be taking on more and more photography work. Even if I never get to quit my normal day job, I don't care :)

I see this thread and the couple in the business section causing a rift through our community, and over such a silly thing.

For me, if you have paying clients, I don't care if you're full time or part time, just that you are professional. Provide the customer with a top quality service and enjoy your work. Everything else is silly nonsense.


Professional = having proper equipment, insurance, paying tax etc not just how you deal with people ;)
 
Bristolian said:
Sorry, you obviously have problems with English comprehension so I'll not bother arguing the point further. Maybe you should re-read what you, Daryl and I actually wrote.
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I think your ignorance speaks for itself, you haven't even bothered to look back over what was posted, rather back up your own ignorance and obliviousness
 
Another pleasant post to start a Sunday morning with................:clap:
 
And on that final note, I think it's time to draw a line under this one.

The thread's lasted longer than I thought it would before getting personal, but we're in the going round in circles mud-slinging stage now so mind the doors on your way out please.
 
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