Plymouth gunman

If I thought that there was any possibility of this new tweak achieving any improvement to public safety then I would welcome it, but it's nothing more than a politician's knee jerk reaction which, if implemented, may make her look a little less useless.

The cornerstone of the existing system has, for many years, been the home visit made by the Firearms Licencing Officers on first application and renewal. These experienced, careful and steady people not only assess applicants and check the security arrangements and guns, they will also see any strange posters on the walls, signs of alcohol or drug use and anything else that may indicate unusual beliefs or conduct.

If they aren't completely happy they can then approach the applicant's GP for medical information (because the applicant has already agreed to this in writing). In the past, they were reluctant to do this routinely because it was the police who had to pay the cost of that enquiry, but following the Select Committee report into the Whitehaven shooting spree (Bird) the rule was tweaked so that it was the applicant who had to pay for any enquiry to the GP.

Different police forces interpreted the new guidelines differently. West Yorkshire (where I live) used this change correctly and as an extra string to their bow, requiring medical information only if necessary. Some other forces made it a requirement for every application and every renewal, which causes extra expense and extra delays for no gain.

As said before, the existing system works very well and on those very rare occasions when an unsuitable person has slipped through the net the fault has always been with the police failing to follow their own procedures, not with the actual procedures.

So, if it's going to be the GP who assesses me, what can she tell the police (assuming that she is even qualified to assess my mental health)? Well, I have actually met her twice because she is a diabetic specialist and I'm an insulin-dependent diabetic, but these consultations were brief and she knows absolutely nothing about me. Other than that, she rings me every 3 months to talk about my care plan. My medical records don't help either, they're just data and prescription history, some of which is wrong anyway.

And, if these assessments are to be carried out by qualified psychologists (assuming that enough of them actually exist and that they can be spared from helping people who actually need their expertise) I would have thought that dodgy characters could deceive them fairly easily, assuming that the consultation is carried out by phone, online or anywhere other than in the home.
 
Some other forces made it a requirement for every application and every renewal, which causes extra expense and extra delays for no gain.
And any change to any system will lead to delays. That won’t directly affect safety in the case of new applicants but delays in renewals could could mean that spotting people who have become a risk will be delayed :(. Almost all laws have unintended consequences.
 
Almost all laws have unintended consequences.
Agreed.

Of course, one of the biggest problems with enforcement in recent years has been the run down in police numbers. From a peak of 172,000 in 2010, the last three governments reduced them to 150,000 by 2017.

The problem with such reductions is that lost staff are often the most experienced. Now the numbers are being ramped up again, increasing the dilution of skills in the force. This is even worse among the civilian staff, who do the essential support tasks that back up the warranted officers.
 
I see that the IOPC (not the Devon & Cornwall police) have now issued notices of potential disciplinary proceedings against a police officer (alleged gross misconduct) and a civilian staff member (alleged misconduct) in relation to the police conduct. See https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-58814611

Although police misconduct/incompetence was a major factor in each of the 3 other historical spree shootings, I believe that this is the first time that police have done anything about investigating themselves, which seems like a big improvement.
 
I see that the IOPC (not the Devon & Cornwall police) have now issued notices of potential disciplinary proceedings against a police officer (alleged gross misconduct) and a civilian staff member (alleged misconduct) in relation to the police conduct. See https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-58814611

Although police misconduct/incompetence was a major factor in each of the 3 other historical spree shootings, I believe that this is the first time that police have done anything about investigating themselves, which seems like a big improvement.

He had his gun seized and licence revoked in December last year after an incident in the September which, I think, is the incident involving the serving of a disciplinary notice on the police officer involved but Davison also attacked a pregnant women and her partner 5 years ago when he was 17 so when he applied for the licence a check would have revealed that incident, which would have been logged even though no action was taken. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/plymouth-killer-previous-police-incident-24762069

It does look like yet another example of information not being passed on to relevant departments or other agencies and it happens often in other walks of life and with equally tragic consequences. I think the problem was with the Data Protection Act re outside agencies.
 
It does look like yet another example of information not being passed on to relevant departments or other agencies and it happens often in other walks of life and with equally tragic consequences. I think the problem was with the Data Protection Act re outside agencies.
Or maybe just an error, which also happens occasionally in every activity :(.I don’t think the gun licensing is particularly well funded and I think there have been backlogs for renewals from time to time. :(
 
Or maybe just an error, which also happens occasionally in every activity :(.I don’t think the gun licensing is particularly well funded and I think there have been backlogs for renewals from time to time. :(

Agree,Richard. (re errors )

You'd think that a dept enganged in vetting applicants who want firearms would be well funded and staffed considering what could happen and very sadly, in this case, has.
 
Agree,Richard. (re errors )

You'd think that a dept enganged in vetting applicants who want firearms would be well funded and staffed considering what could happen and very sadly, in this case, has.
I’ve no idea how many unsuccessful applicants there are for shotgun certificates (which will be the most common) but the vast majority of those granted will be very mundane cases, and not the sort gun nuts we are familiar with seeing on TV from the US :(.
 
I’ve no idea how many unsuccessful applicants there are for shotgun certificates (which will be the most common) but the vast majority of those granted will be very mundane cases, and not the sort gun nuts we are familiar with seeing on TV from the US :(.
I’ve no idea of numbers but apparently 97% of applications are approved. I know that’s high but you wouldn’t apply if you know you’ll be refused
 
I’ve no idea of numbers but apparently 97% of applications are approved. I know that’s high but you wouldn’t apply if you know you’ll be refused
Most police forces do actually publish the figures.
With ordinary shotgun certificates (Section 2) there's a presumptive right to own a shotgun. What this means in effect is that unless the police have good reason to refuse the application, the certificate will be granted.

Good reasons for refusal include being of no fixed abode, inadequate safe storage facilities, criminal record, known criminal contacts, alcohol or drug abuse, health (usually mental health) problems, membership of a proscribed organisation (normally an extreme political group. But that's not completely exhaustive and the police will also refuse people who are strongly suspected of crime but who haven't actually been convicted, and repeated motoring convictions, although not actually criminal, also make people unsuitable. Unlike with Section 1 (basically rifles) and Section 5 (basically handguns) applications, which both require the applicant to have a good reason for having a firearm, a Section 2 applicant doesn't need to have a good reason for buying one or more shotguns and doesn't actually need to buy a gun at any point.

These are probably the main reasons why nearly all shotgun applications are successful.

And the typical shotgun owner has a very similar demographic to the typical photographer - typically male, with a settled life, and not young. Which is one of the reasons why the granting of a certificate to Davison was so remarkable. His life wasn't settled, he had been arrested for violent assaults, had mental health problems and had attended a special school and was, in theory at least, still receiving support for his problems.
Agree,Richard. (re errors )

You'd think that a dept enganged in vetting applicants who want firearms would be well funded and staffed considering what could happen and very sadly, in this case, has.
Yes, AFAIK all firearms licencing departments are understaffed and overworked, it's been getting worse since 2010. But most of them put safety and very careful checking first. They deal with their limited resources by making people wait a very long time for their certificates, they don't normally cut corners.
 
Yes, AFAIK all firearms licencing departments are understaffed and overworked, it's been getting worse since 2010. But most of them put safety and very careful checking first. They deal with their limited resources by making people wait a very long time for their certificates, they don't normally cut corners
I’m sure they don’t usually cut corners but overworked and understaffed will lead to more errrors — on renewals I would expect rather than new applications, even so the current case is surprising as you say :(.
 
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