Pilot Error

is he going to jail then for a long time?
 
Mr Bump said:
is he going to jail then for a long time?
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It seems likely that it was genuine error, rather than negligence or recklessness (briefly forgot that he wasn't in another plane with slightly better agility & low speed performance) so hopefully not. And I should have thought that causing 11 deaths on his conscience would be more than enough.
 
realy? i read it that he flew to low.
 
It's a difficult one this, he had history for not following the rules. However I'd have expected the organisers to have looked into that. And as the CAA appear to have been happy for him to fly I guess the media may be making a meal of that. Undoubtably it was an accident, but an avoidable one. It's very sad that the innocent bystanders were injured or killed, and I've no doubt there will be some civil action to follow at the very least.
 
It appears that the pilot is quite clearly to blame for this. So many opportunities to abort the manoeuvre, so many missed checkpoints. If he can't tell the difference between aircraft types he is flying then he shouldn't be flying. As mentioned above, it's not his first breach, southport '14 is something to watch.

I think the main thrust of this is that it has exposed how badly things were organised, and how many failings there were in the system. Risk assessments, display authorities, escape manoeuvres not practised or considered....

As spectators and bystanders we need to be safe and protected, but as an enthusiast, I don't want to watch a display which consists of a level flypast at 3000'

Finding that balance is the main thing. I don't think prison for the pilot would be any more of a punishment than he already has to carry around with him every day. Yes he crashed, and killed 11 people, but had the system been effective, i would argue that those 11 would still be alive.

I guess we will never truly know, other than on that day, all the holes in the cheese lined up and the rest is history. :(
 
Dave70D said:
I had radio 5 interview me a day after, and all they wanted me to say was, Ban all airshows, to which I said NO it was an accident and sadly people died. I have gone to airshows since I was a little boy and loved all of them, so no to banning them.
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I joined TP last year Dave, I had no idea you were there.
 
gremlin16 said:
I joined TP last year Dave, I had no idea you were there.
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We actually started watching from where he crashed, but the wife said we should be in the airfield so we paid and went in. A sight we never want to see or photograph again.
 
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Mr Bump said:
realy? i read it that he flew to low.
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From the linked article:
One possible explanation they've looked at is whether the pilot got confused with another jet aircraft, called a Jet Provost, which he normally flies.

The height and speed he started the Shoreham manoeuvre would be right for the Jet Provost, because it is smaller and lighter than the Hunter.
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If that were what happened - and it makes most sense - then it doesn't make it right, but it does indicate the crash was an error of judgement, rather than willful showing off. He was an experienced pilot, and would know that the chances of surviving a crash would be very minimal indeed.
 
i don't think the words confused can apply to a professional pilot, he got it wrong, he didn't take enough care, he didn't do enough research.

whatever, 11 people are dead. if an HGV driver had ran into a line of traffic and then said the breaks didn't react how he expected them to what do you think the outcome of the court would have been?

he should be tried for 11 manslaughter chages.
 
Mr Bump said:
i don't think the words confused can apply to a professional pilot, he got it wrong, he didn't take enough care, he didn't do enough research.

whatever, 11 people are dead. if an HGV driver had ran into a line of traffic and then said the breaks didn't react how he expected them to what do you think the outcome of the court would have been?

he should be tried for 11 manslaughter chages.
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I disagree, me and my wife could of died if we had not moved, plus my brother could of too. The pilot has got to live with it for the rest of his life, I think that is punishment enough.
 
Mr Bump said:
i don't think the words confused can apply to a professional pilot, he got it wrong, he didn't take enough care, he didn't do enough research.

whatever, 11 people are dead. if an HGV driver had ran into a line of traffic and then said the breaks didn't react how he expected them to what do you think the outcome of the court would have been?

he should be tried for 11 manslaughter chages.
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He may well be charged, but there are other elements to this, if a root cause analysis takes place no doubt the organisers and regulatory body will be under severe scrutiny too.

One of the biggest problems with humans is that they make errors. Why those errors are made is the important thing to consider before getting the torches and pitch forks out.

Lots of drivers are involved in fatal accidents and don't get prosecuted. There are legal tests to be satisfied before a prosecution will take place. I'd imaging that if a criminal case is going to be brought, it will be imminent, as the police will have been waiting for the results of this report to add to their own investigations.
 
Dave70D said:
I disagree, me and my wife could of died if we had not moved, plus my brother could of too. The pilot has got to live with it for the rest of his life, I think that is punishment enough.
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i suppose the irony is you are alive to disagree, 11 people are not.
 
Mr Bump said:
i don't think the words confused can apply to a professional pilot, he got it wrong, he didn't take enough care, he didn't do enough research.

whatever, 11 people are dead. if an HGV driver had ran into a line of traffic and then said the breaks didn't react how he expected them to what do you think the outcome of the court would have been?

he should be tried for 11 manslaughter chages.
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No he shouldn't. Accidents happen, and they always will. Its easy to look at things with hindsight, but even professionals get it wrong. How many times have I tried to take a pic and confused as to why its black, then realise the lens cap is on!! Fortunately no-one gets hurt, but as a pilot a small error can be fatal. It is easy to misjudge things
 
cambsno said:
No he shouldn't. Accidents happen, and they always will. Its easy to look at things with hindsight, but even professionals get it wrong. How many times have I tried to take a pic and confused as to why its black, then realise the lens cap is on!! Fortunately no-one gets hurt, but as a pilot a small error can be fatal. It is easy to misjudge things
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poppycock, accidents rarely happen.
they are caused by insufficent anaysys, poor risk assesment and in this case not assessing the route the aircraft took.
all preventable in 1980 never mind 2014.
the chap flying the plane did a bad job and is responsible.
 
Mr Bump said:
poppycock, accidents rarely happen.
they are caused by insufficent anaysys, poor risk assesment and in this case not assessing the route the aircraft took.
all preventable in 1980 never mind 2014.
the chap flying the plane did a bad job and is responsible.
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So are you saying everyone who made a mistake that day should get locked up, as it is down to a lot of people.
 
Mr Bump said:
poppycock, accidents rarely happen.
they are caused by insufficent anaysys, poor risk assesment and in this case not assessing the route the aircraft took.
all preventable in 1980 never mind 2014.
the chap flying the plane did a bad job and is responsible.
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So you are saying that most incidents are not accidents? I assume they happen because someone has violated a procedure or rule? When you look at a risk assessment, how many say the probability is zero?

Clearly you have an opinion that the pilot should be jailed, and I'm sure many would say the same. However it's easy to judge. Have you never had any sort of accident?
 
Dave70D said:
So are you saying everyone who made a mistake that day should get locked up, as it is down to a lot of people.
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no not at all, but they are responsible, if we didn't make people responsible for there actions then all chaos would descend.
as said before he wasn't riding a bmx on the sidewalk, he was flying a vintage jet fighter loaded with fuel near civilains.
 
rick448 said:
So you are saying that most incidents are not accidents? I assume they happen because someone has violated a procedure or rule? When you look at a risk assessment, how many say the probability is zero?

Clearly you have an opinion that the pilot should be jailed, and I'm sure many would say the same. However it's easy to judge. Have you never had any sort of accident?
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Ask the families of the 11 dead not me.
 
I would, but they aren't on here are they? No doubt the vultures known as claim solicitors will have said their piece and ensured that they make their money. Not that any of that will prevent a reoccurrence of this terrible incident.

Clearly you have made your mind up about what should happen, and that is your prerogative. The fact that not everyone agrees doesn't make anyone right or wrong. I would however, be interested to hear if the pilot has anything to say about this at any point. Even though he is aledgedly unable to remember anything. But again no doubt his advisors will be telling him to say nothing for fear of repercussions in court.

It's rarely as simple as the media hype makes it out, it's their business to sensationalise things.
 
Mr Bump said:
here are the 11 victims
read their story

worth noting none of them even attended the air display just going about their business

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39152941
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Has anyone said they deserved to die? I don't think so, for me, it depends on the level of error and how and why that happened. If he was texting on his phone at the time then I'd agree, go for him, though also consider, should he have a phone in the aircraft.

I hope that you never have a genuine lapse which causes someone to be hurt or worse. How many people can admit to never having got away with something that on a different time could have proved much much worse?
 
rick448 said:
Has anyone said they deserved to die? I don't think so, for me, it depends on the level of error and how and why that happened. If he was texting on his phone at the time then I'd agree, go for him, though also consider, should he have a phone in the aircraft.

I hope that you never have a genuine lapse which causes someone to be hurt or worse. How many people can admit to never having got away with something that on a different time could have proved much much worse?
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worth a quick read

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/601030/Shoreham-Airshow-crash-pilot-Andy-Hill-showing-off
 
Mr Bump said:
no not at all, but they are responsible, if we didn't make people responsible for there actions then all chaos would descend.
as said before he wasn't riding a bmx on the sidewalk, he was flying a vintage jet fighter loaded with fuel near civilains.
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Aside from Trump (:cool:) no-one is perfect or gets through life without accidents. Can any of us say that on every car journey we have paid 100% attention 100% of the time and never done anything wrong? Fortunately in most cases we get away with it, that time when you pull out on a motorway and for some reason did not check your mirror properly and almost caused a collision? For the grace of god/other drivers reactions/you noticing just in time or sheer luck, no problem, but without those that could cause an almighty pile up.

He made an error of judgement, it could happen to the next pilot to take to the air. I detest this blame culture where someone has to be accountable (like the relatives of the Tunisa shooting suing the tour operator - like they could have prevented it!). There is a different between someone being drunk/unqualified/texting and causing an accident and on that happens due to human error.
 
No ,prison won't bring the dead back, but you could say the same for anyone committing manslaughter, so that doesn't hold water.
This pilot has previous for flying too low, too fast, and over areas he had no business being over.
I believe he acted willfully and negligently, and he caused the death of all of those people through his actions.
IMO, a custodial sentence is appropriate.
 
viv1969 said:
No ,prison won't bring the dead back, but you could say the same for anyone committing manslaughter, so that doesn't hold water.
This pilot has previous for flying too low, too fast, and over areas he had no business being over.
I believe he acted willfully and negligently, and he caused the death of all of those people through his actions.
IMO, a custodial sentence is appropriate.
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yup
 
viv1969 said:
No ,prison won't bring the dead back, but you could say the same for anyone committing manslaughter, so that doesn't hold water.
This pilot has previous for flying too low, too fast, and over areas he had no business being over.
I believe he acted willfully and negligently, and he caused the death of all of those people through his actions.
IMO, a custodial sentence is appropriate.
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I don`t think when he came flying in his thoughts were, Right I will be silly and kill 11 people, some who were watching. Yes he made a mistake, but Everyone does in life, so No to prison as it won`t bring them back.
 
Dave70D said:
I don`t think when he came flying in his thoughts were, Right I will be silly and kill 11 people, some who were watching. Yes he made a mistake, but Everyone does in life, so No to prison as it won`t bring them back.
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No, because that would have made him a murderer.
But he did make the conscious decision to show off (again!), and that resulted in deaths.
That's manslaughter, and manslaughter deserves prison.

As I said before, no victim of manslaughter can ever be bought back by imprisoning the killer, so should we not imprison any of them?
 
Well because it could of been anyone who sadly died in the accident that day, even my family could of. It has been proved that ALOT of people made a bad error of judgement, so they can`t put them All in prison, but what they can do is Learn from it. At the end of the day, I am glad it was none of my family, but you can not put just one person in prison because many people sadly made a mistake.

Pilot Error goes back a long way


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Airliner_accidents_and_incidents_caused_by_pilot_error
 
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Not many airliner pilots punch out when they realise that they've cocked up.
 
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