Picked up my new camera today....a GF1

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Images between the two kit lenses are similar at the same aperture IMO.
The main benefits of the 20mm is it's size (or rather lack of) and fast aperture.
The 14-45 is much quicker in focusing Though and sooooo much quieter in operation, you can't hear it focussing whereas the 20mm you can hear it from arms length away.
 
Very interesting. It's good to know the quality is there with the 14-45!

Olympus are bringing out a 9-18mm f4-f5.6 lens for their new E-P2 which is due in January. That's going to be a good lens i think. I take it the mounts are the same??
 
NorthernNikon said:
It depends on how big your pockets are! :lol:

I'll take a comparison shot of my GF1 next to my D300 and compact to give others an idea of size.
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It's not any bigger than the likes of a G10, fits in my pocket nicely :shrug:

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What about a side on shot FITP?
 
phototuition said:
It's a superb piece of work and functions beautifully either using bottom half only or both as a classic ERC. Highly recommended, picked mine up from Ask in Tot ct rd London for £55 along with camera.
I tried the 2.8 / 45mm in store there today and examined the raw images in the laptop. Expensive but what the hell, us cynical old pros need our fun, so i bought it and look forward to putting it through it's paces over the weekend.
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If you get a chance would you be able to post any images of the case on the GF1?
 
Flash In The Pan said:
It's not any bigger than the likes of a G10, fits in my pocket nicely :shrug:
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Hmm, not at that angle. Is it smaller than the Oly?

Any chance of a side view comparison with the G10/11?

A comparison with the LX3 would be nice too.
 
Just got a call from Mathers of Lancashire and my GF1 will be with me tomorrow, can't wait!! I'll post up some pics when i have had a play.
 
I should be getting my 45-200mm off them tomorrow - can't wait.
 
gingerweasel said:
I should be getting my 45-200mm off them tomorrow - can't wait.
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Actually scrap that... just called now to confirm it will be delivered tomorrow [been on order for a week] and was informed that it hadn't arrived today as expected. Their next delivery is next week..

Pretty poor service .. they didn't even call to tell me I wouldn't be getting it tomorrow :bang::bang: [or is it just me being inpatient?]
 
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68lbs said:
Hmm, not at that angle. Is it smaller than the Oly?

Any chance of a side view comparison with the G10/11?

A comparison with the LX3 would be nice too.
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I think the GF1 is slightly smaller than the E-P1, but only slightly.

The biggest difference with the M43's compared to say a G11 is the lens size.

On the G11, the lens fits into the body. Obviously on the M43's this sticks out, so to compare the two you need to decide what lens you would like to compare.

If you are talking about comparing the zoom lenses, then this is a useful page, that compares the size of the Oly zoom lens (14-42) with the Panasonic (14-45):
http://www.photozone.de/olympus--four-thirds-lens-tests/452-oly_m1442_3556

As you'll see, this is where the Oly has the advantage with regards to size, although the review states that they believe the design is optimised for sze rather than quality (although doesn't get a bad review).

With the pancake lenses attached, these are very small:
http://www.photozone.de/olympus--four-thirds-lens-tests/464-pana_20_17
http://www.photozone.de/olympus--four-thirds-lens-tests/468-oly_17_28

I would guess if you compared the GF1 (with 20/1.7) with the G11 there wouldn't be a lot of difference. But the GF1 with the 14-45 & EVF the difference would be a lot bigger.

These cameras are not really compact size and yet they are not really SLR size (and the options can really change the size of the camera).

One of the problems with most of the reviews I've seen is that they are either compared to compacts (and the reviewers complain about the size), or dSLR's (and the reviewers complain about the features: viewfinder, AF speed etc).
I guess this is inevitable until more of these type (or EVIL) cameras come to market, so that they can be compared against their piers. It's not just reviewers either - the people at work who have played with my E-P1 also say the same. Once you get out of that mindset that it's not a dSLR or Compact these camera make much more sense. The problem is, unlike APS-C vs FF, the prices of these M43's cameras are high compared to both APS-C dSLRs and Compacts.

I would say, if you are wanting to compare the size of the GF1 with a compact, the GF1 will be too big.

For me, the biggest difference between the E-P1 and my dSLR, is that I can leave the E-P1 hanging around my neck all day without it bothering me. It's not really going to fit in my pocket like a compact, but it will give 'almost dSLR quality' (figure of speech).
My wife thinks the E-P1 is too large (and wants me to sell it), but I think the IQ quality of the compacts that she would find acceptable regarding size, not good enough to leave my dSLR at home.
 
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springtide said:
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...For me, the biggest difference between the E-P1 and my dSLR, is that I can leave the E-P1 hanging around my neck all day without it bothering me. It's not really going to fit in my pocket like a compact, but it will give 'almost dSLR quality' (figure of speech).
My wife thinks the E-P1 is too large (and wants me to sell it), but I think the IQ quality of the compacts that she would find acceptable regarding size, not good enough to leave my dSLR at home.
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Good point :thumbs:

It's no good trying to pretent that these cameras are really pocketable. While the camera bodies themselves are quite small and slim, the lenses are not. The benefit is in the lack of weight.

In terms of 'power to weight ratio' these cameras pack a heck of a lot of picture potential into a very handy unit.
 
HoppyUK said:
It's no good trying to pretent that these cameras are really pocketable.
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I think they are if you use the right lenses. Certainly, the GF-1 with the 20mm will easily slip into my coat pocket and when my Novoflex adaptor turns up tomorrow I'll be able to tell you how compact it is with my Nikkor 45mm f:2.8 pancake.
 
I took my GF1 with 20mm f1.7 out at the weekend and it fitted easily into my jacket pocket, it isn't a big jacket either. The camera is too bulky for a trouser or shirt pocket but should fit in many jacket pockets without problem.
 
NorthernNikon said:
I think they are if you use the right lenses. Certainly, the GF-1 with the 20mm will easily slip into my coat pocket and when my Novoflex adaptor turns up tomorrow I'll be able to tell you how compact it is with my Nikkor 45mm f:2.8 pancake.
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woof woof said:
I took my GF1 with 20mm f1.7 out at the weekend and it fitted easily into my jacket pocket, it isn't a big jacket either. The camera is too bulky for a trouser or shirt pocket but should fit in many jacket pockets without problem.
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Isn't the whole point of an interchangeable lens camera that you can fit whatever lens you like? And most of them are going to be far bigger than 20mm f/1.7 (sweeet lens though it is).

If you use a GF1 like this you are not benefiting from one of its greatest assets. That's obviously fine if it suits you, but if that was all I wanted to do I'd get a Leica X1 which, if they'd only given it interchangeable lenses, would be flying the Leica flag high and mighty right now, IMHO.
 
HoppyUK said:
Isn't the whole point of an interchangeable lens camera that you can fit whatever lens you like? And most of them are going to be far bigger than 20mm f/1.7 (sweeet lens though it is).

If you use a GF1 like this you are not benefiting from one of its greatest assets. That's obviously fine if it suits you, but if that was all I wanted to do I'd get a Leica X1 which, if they'd only given it interchangeable lenses, would be flying the Leica flag high and mighty right now, IMHO.
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You're just looking for an empty room to start an arguement in aren't you, Richard? :naughty:

If the X1 had interchangeable lenses it would be £2800.....






and called the M8 :lol:
 
HoppyUK said:
Isn't the whole point of an interchangeable lens camera that you can fit whatever lens you like? And most of them are going to be far bigger than 20mm f/1.7 (sweeet lens though it is).

If you use a GF1 like this you are not benefiting from one of its greatest assets. That's obviously fine if it suits you, but if that was all I wanted to do I'd get a Leica X1 which, if they'd only given it interchangeable lenses, would be flying the Leica flag high and mighty right now, IMHO.
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Did you miss the bit about the Nikkor 45mm pancake? :thinking:
 
I might buy another lens for my GF1 at some point, for example one with a shorter focus turn and some marking would be nice, but I think that my GF1 is going to spend the vast majority of it's life with one main lens and that's fine with me just as it's fine with me that I only use one lens on my Bessa R. It is what it is and that's part of it's charm.

I see the GF1 as a genuine quality digital alternative to my Bessa R, Olympus Trip and Cononet in that it can offer image quality to rival a larger camera just as the images from my more compact 35mm cameras can rival those from my EOS 30 SLR.

For the first time I now have a compact digital that I can use when I don't want to use my DSLR that's responsive and easy and quick to use and can produce images that rival those from my DSLR away from ISO 100. I don't think that any compact digital has so well filled this role for me before. The LX2 comes close but falls down for me in anything but really good light.

For me the big advantages of the GF1 are it's relatively compact size, relative ease of use, the quality of it's images and the possibilities offered by a reasonably fast lens. Adding a bigger lens to the mix would change the character for me and although I might get a zoom one day at the moment it's an outside possibility.

I might be wrong but I don't think that there's a more compact digital on the market that can match the GF1 for picture quality and speed of operation. I haven't taken an interest in the Leica so at the moment I'm still very happy with my choice and if I want a small zoom I'll take my LX2 and hope for good light.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
For street photography it would appear from that review that the answer is "no"
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Indeed. Though as has been pointed out, many street shooters will pre focus manually. One of the few criticisms I have of the GF-1 is that there is no distance scale on the 20mm f:1.7. I appreciate that there is little room on the lens itself, but it surely can't be too hard to have it available on the screen? My prefered method of shooting street would be to prefocus at around 10 feet and let the depth of field at f:5.6 or f:8 take care of the rest.
 
I wonder if a firmware update could add prefocus points at various distances, like the switch on an Olympus Trip. That'd be great.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
You're just looking for an empty room to start an arguement in aren't you, Richard? :naughty:

If the X1 had interchangeable lenses it would be £2800.....

and called the M8 :lol:
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Not at all ;) I've just read the Luminous Landscape review of the X1 linked by NN. It is disappointing. And I do want to like that camera.

Seems like the X1 is half finished with a rather average screen and slow AF. That's unforgiveable. It's almost as if Panasonic wouldn't give their partner the technology they needed... :thinking:

And that's quite apart from it having a fixed lens. I can't think of a single reason why they didn't give it interchangeable lenses - no technical reasons, no brand philosophy reasons, nor marketing reasons. The best I can come up with is that Leica hasn't got a range of APS-C lenses to equip it with, but then they didn't have that for the new S2 either and they've found the time to make those. (Well, allegedly - its introduction has been delayed again.) Why is Leica persisting with that big fat S2 nonsense of a camera, that fills a non-existent niche somewhere above the clouds? At least the X1 has some market appeal, but Leica's unfathomable business intuition has never made any sense to me. Hey ho.

NorthernNikon said:
Did you miss the bit about the Nikkor 45mm pancake? :thinking:
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No. What did I miss? It's another prime, actually designed for full frame and with a modest f/number. And as such it's very restricted; no substitute for a walkabout zoom.

NorthernNikon said:
Just to add re the Leica X1, my interest has cooled a little after a) seeng how good the Gf-1 actually is and b) reading this.
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Good link, thanks :thumbs: Shame though :(

NorthernNikon said:
Indeed. Though as has been pointed out, many street shooters will pre focus manually. One of the few criticisms I have of the GF-1 is that there is no distance scale on the 20mm f:1.7. I appreciate that there is little room on the lens itself, but it surely can't be too hard to have it available on the screen? My prefered method of shooting street would be to prefocus at around 10 feet and let the depth of field at f:5.6 or f:8 take care of the rest.
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It seems to me that the GF1 is appealing to two different types of photographer. I think it's aimed pretty much squarely at the high end compact user, but enthusiasts like us see it as something rather different, and rather more - basically a baby Leica in the more serious reportage mould. And in that sense its more consumer orientation falls a little short in one or two areas.

They seem to be relative details though and, given that we will see a lot more cameras like this very soon, they will be sorted out. I think these new EVIL cameras are the most exciting thing to happen in a very long time, and that we ain't seen nuffin yet.
 
woof woof said:
I wonder if a firmware update could add prefocus points at various distances, like the switch on an Olympus Trip. That'd be great.
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On the E-P1, when you select MF - as soon as you twist the MF ring it zooms to aid manual focusing. And when you press the shutter hald way down, it switches back to a full view.

I think even if there was a focus scale, I would probably not bother to use it.
I read that due to the sensor size of the M43's, f8 is the equiv of f13 on FF in terms of DOF, so focusing using a scale is less critical (and it's not as if you are going to be measuring the distance with a tape etc)


For me, I think it's just as quick/easy to just point the camera at what you want to focus on, start focusing and get correct focus using the focus assist zoom, and then press the shutter half way down to frame and shoot, and then all the way down to shoot.

I'm sure I read that the GF1 has something similar in terms of the focus aid etc.
 
Received my GF1 about half an hour ago!!! Whoop Whoop!!!

Just waiting for the battery to charge! Yawn!

Anyhoo here's a pic of the camera:

4111759569_01ae307617.jpg
 
Yes, it's the same on the GF1, it zooms to aid focus...but...

There are no marking on the lens so you can't just set it (for example) to focus at 6 feet other than by focusing at something 6 feet away first.

You can move the GF1's focus point about on the screen but I personally find that to be a slow and fiddly thing to do. Focusing and recomposing can obviously give problems as when you recompose your position and distance relative to your subject change. I realise that 4/3 has greater depth of field but even so it's possible to run into problems when recomposing after focusing.

The advantage of pre focus or zone focus or hyperfocal focus and things like that is that you don't need to focus on your subject. This has obvious advantages in some situations.

It'd be a nice touch if the 20mm f1.7 had markings or if there could be some other way of pre focusing, either by a scale on the display or preset distances selected on screen or by pressing a button.
 
HoppyUK said:
Seems like the X1 is half finished with a rather average screen and slow AF. That's unforgiveable. It's almost as if Panasonic wouldn't give their partner the technology they needed... :thinking:
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Rumours have it that the X1 is made by Nikon. If this is true than I would suspect that it's more a case Nikon retaining some technology for a future Nikon badge EVIL camera.

And that's quite apart from it having a fixed lens. I can't think of a single reason why they didn't give it interchangeable lenses - no technical reasons, no brand philosophy reasons, nor marketing reasons. The best I can come up with is that Leica hasn't got a range of APS-C lenses to equip it with, but then they didn't have that for the new S2 either and they've found the time to make those. (Well, allegedly - its introduction has been delayed again.) Why is Leica persisting with that big fat S2 nonsense of a camera, that fills a non-existent niche somewhere above the clouds? At least the X1 has some market appeal, but Leica's unfathomable business intuition has never made any sense to me. Hey ho.
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There is a very clear and obvious reason why Leica won't release a smaller camera with interchangable lenses - it would destory the market for the M9. This has happened before in the days of film and nearly saw the end of the company as a whole.

No. What did I miss? It's another prime, actually designed for full frame and with a modest f/number. And as such it's very restricted; no substitute for a walkabout zoom.
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Well you've confused me there. On the one hand tyou're saying that the point of an interchangable lens camera is using a choice of lenses, on the other you're saying that a 'walkabout zoom' is best?

Traditionally rangefinder user would have a pair of complimentary lenses, often a 35mm and 90mm, so the 20mm and 45mm are just the modern day equivilent.
 
woof woof said:
Yes, it's the same on the GF1, it zooms to aid focus...but...
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... not with MF lenses used with an adaptor :bang:

It'd be a nice touch if the 20mm f1.7 had markings or if there could be some other way of pre focusing, either by a scale on the display or preset distances selected on screen or by pressing a button.
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You can work it out, roughly, by focusing on something 10 ft away and marking how far the focus ring has been turned, but it's not ideal.
 
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I'm only nit picking.

A shorter rotation on the lens and makings would be great and maybe one day there'll be a lens to make me completely, 100% happy, but unlike you I'll want to keep autofocus and therefore wont be using a lens that can only be used manually.

I have thought of marking the lens...but I can't bring myself to, prefocusing on something 6 feet away seems like a better idea.
 
NorthernNikon said:
Rumours have it that the X1 is made by Nikon. If this is true than I would suspect that it's more a case Nikon retaining some technology for a future Nikon badge EVIL camera.
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Leica have now stated that this isn't the case, rumours still abound of a new Nikon camera in the style of the X1 though
 
woof woof said:
I'm only nit picking.

A shorter rotation on the lens and makings would be great and maybe one day there'll be a lens to make me completely, 100% happy, but unlike you I'll want to keep autofocus and therefore wont be using a lens that can only be used manually.

I have thought of marking the lens...but I can't bring myself to, prefocusing on something 6 feet away seems like a better idea.
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Ironically, the Nikkor has a distance scale but I'll be using that for portraits so no prefocusing there, while the 20mm f:1.7 doesn't and that's the one I'd want to prefocus. :bang:
 
NorthernNikon said:
Rumours have it that the X1 is made by Nikon. If this is true than I would suspect that it's more a case Nikon retaining some technology for a future Nikon badge EVIL camera.
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I hadn't heard that, but even if it isn't made by Nikon (as FITP says above) the fact that it is not made by Leica (only assembled by them) and it seems neither did Panasonic make it, then I'm wondering what benefits there is to Leica being partners with Panasonic?

I always thought it was purely a marriage of convenience, basically little more than Leica putting their name on Lumix lenses while Pano built the brand, in exchange for money (I never dreamt that Leica actually designed the things). I'm now thinking that maybe Leica has served its purpose for Panasonic and they'll be on their own with Leica-branded cameras. Which is a shame, because there is a lot of new technology that Leica clearly has little expertise in, and even fewer resources to develop .

With Leica, things were ever thus... :(

There is a very clear and obvious reason why Leica won't release a smaller camera with interchangable lenses - it would destory the market for the M9. This has happened before in the days of film and nearly saw the end of the company as a whole.
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I follow your thinking, but do you think so? I guess it could well explain things. The upside of that thinking is that if EVIL cameras do indeed develop into the 'new age Leica' for a larger market and run alongside the M9 in it's elevated niche (even promoting customers up to it) then there is nothing stopping Leica from producing the X1 with all its little niggles fixed and an interchangeable lens mount :thumbs: I'm never going to buy and M9, but I could be very temped by an EVIL X1.

Well you've confused me there. On the one hand tyou're saying that the point of an interchangable lens camera is using a choice of lenses, on the other you're saying that a 'walkabout zoom' is best?

Traditionally rangefinder user would have a pair of complimentary lenses, often a 35mm and 90mm, so the 20mm and 45mm are just the modern day equivilent.
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Ah, okay. I see where you're coming from. That's cool :)
 
Flash In The Pan said:
Leica have now stated that this isn't the case, rumours still abound of a new Nikon camera in the style of the X1 though
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Here goes.... [please don't flame me!]

Personally, I think APS-C is too large a sensor for this 'space' (meaning the GF1 & E-P1|2 type of cameras). The problem is, it's not the sensor size that is the issue, but the lenses that you need to match the sensor. Even modest lenses like the 14-45mm increase the size of the body compared to the pancake, and the 14-45 can hardly be considered a fast zoom. The standard zoom lens of the Oly is the main reason why I personally prefer the Oly over the GF1, with the 'compromised' folding design of the Oly kit zoom lens being preferable to the larger 14-45mm of the GF1.
And obviously using the Oly kit lens with the GF1 is not great as the Oly has 'body IS' where as the GF1's have OS 'in the lens' (can obviously be done, but you'd loose IS/OS)

I think the GF1 is about as large as I'd want one of these cameras, and I'm even a little against the EVF's a little as by the time you add one of these, then why not buy yourself a small dSLR and be done with it?


Looking at the adapters for the manual focus lenses on Ebay, it appears that none of them have electrical connections - which I assume means no focus assist - as there is no way for the body to know you are turning the focus ring.

This for me was a show stopper, as I'd love to be able to shoot with very narrow DOF on the Oly (and attach my Sony f1.4 primes), but unless you can easily manual focus with such a shallow DOF (which is not an easy task with LV or an EVF), then it seems a little bit pointless.
Personally I struggle manually focusing my FF + 135/2.8 wide open if the lights not bright, and that has a massive class leading optical viewfinder, so I have no hope with a LV M43.
 
OK, i will do a proper assessment in a new thread but just for now the most important thing for me is NO DEAD PIXELS!!! WOOO HOOO!!:clap:

The other is that it's a great all in one package and so well built. The rear screen is very good with a high quality display and the menu system is dead easy to navigate and use but it's not a million miles from my Lumix TZ6 so easy for me.

I have taken a few images but it was dark outside so i had to take pics inside. At ISO100 the image quality is very good but at 400 it has noticeable noise. The pics i took were again crap because the light was poor even for the 20mm f1.7 so i will take some pics tomorrow in natural light. The pics i took tonight were not worthy of processing!!!!

So far i'm loving it!! Proof will really be when i use it on a proper day out but looking good so far. I'll take some pics and pop them up tomorrow.

Am i happy..........Yup!!:thumbs:
 
Glad you're liking it.

Noise is relative. I had the D700 and loved the clean imaged, but i've always found the noise issue on 4/3rds sensors to be over emphasised. The images i'm shooting have more 'grain' than noise, and they do clean up quite nicely, but i did a little experiment and printed out some images from the Oly E-3, Canon 50D, Oly E-30, D700, and Pany GF1, and at A4 there is very little difference in the outputted image.

Of course at 100% on screen its a different matter, but i made the decision to not be so anal about it and just love the camer for what it is - a high quality small flexible bit of kit.
 
It's taken me two years and a lot of money to realise this. I think it's because people are so used to looking at pictures at pixel level on monitors, and very few actually print out.

Hell, i even have some poster sized prints from my little Fuji F31, Olympus 1030SW, and Canon S2-IS and they look fantastic on the wall.
 
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