Photoshop Vs Photography

mant01

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I just wondered if people think that photoshop has improved photography allowing new possibilities or that it has kind of took away from the art itself and lessened the need to be as skilled with the camera? I like and use photoshop but at the same time it seems that someone who was really skilled using it could take any old picture and make it seem look great. And after all its not about being good on a computer but about capturing something that looks great. What do you think?
 
I think each has it's place John. Photoshop can't make a location, can't right a wrong composition or sort bad lighting. To make a great image it is still best to get it as close to perfect as you can in camera. That's when photoshop becomes a truly great tool.
 
I think each has it's place John. Photoshop can't make a location, can't right a wrong composition or sort bad lighting. To make a great image it is still best to get it as close to perfect as you can in camera. That's when photoshop becomes a truly great tool.

+1 :thumbs:

Before I start thinking about post processing I just want to concentrate on getting great photos.
 
I cannot see how Photoshop can improve Photography per se.

Photoshop is image manipulation so it can improve an image in the same way that in the past a master of the darkroom could improve an image.
With photoshop it is perfectly possible to use 3 images to create a totally new image.

Ali is correct, in that a photograph captures a very small moment in time therefore you cannot correct bad composition, bad lighting or poor location. You can only alter the image after which it does not truly capture the moment you released the shutter.

after all its not about being good on a computer but about capturing something that looks great
This line from your OP sums up 'photography' as opposed to image manipulation.
 
I am new to Photoshop and still learning the ropes. I think it has it's place, but only in enhancing an image, for example dodging and burning to bring out detail in shadows etc. So in essence you are just emphasising what was already in the original photo. So you still have to have that artistic eye, good composition etc etc. Personally, I am not too sure about the art of adding a 'sky' to a scene from another picture. For me photography is about waiting for, or being lucky enough to catch that magic shot, rather than engineering it.
 
I think post production has a place (better have or I'm out of a job), but just look at the efforts EdinburghGary has gone to in his studio to help get the lighting right to cut down on PP work.

But it depends on the shot. Some shots rely heavily on PP and wouldn't look right otherwise.
Personally I like to try and get it as right as possible in camera, then use PP if needed.
 
For an amateur photographer like me it can help change a mediocre photograph into a really good one. I don’t posses any L series lenses and sometimes my pictures can be a bit soft. Post processing allows me to sharpen the picture and add a bit more contrast and colour as necessary so that it looks more like the scene I was trying to capture. My camera is already set up to increase contrast and sharpen the images when I take pictures in jpeg form.

With professional photographers it is obviously a necessary tool that is used to boost or change the image depending on the uses of the final image.

I certainly don’t think it has, or ever will, detract from the art of photography.
 
I think each has it's place John. Photoshop can't make a location, can't right a wrong composition or sort bad lighting. To make a great image it is still best to get it as close to perfect as you can in camera. That's when photoshop becomes a truly great tool.

Indeed mate. :thumbs: I think a lot of the misconception that photoshop in some way hinders the art is construed from assumptions rather than actual knowledge of available editing capability.

You know the saying, 'You can polish a poo, but it's still a poo'.

I've had some bizarre requests from clients, stemmed from the belief that anything is possible in photoshop :cuckoo:

...... Ahhh yes, Ali? You can make a scene or landscape with software like 3dsMax or Bryce 6.... not wanting to throw a spanner in the works... but you can do that.

Yes you can Daryl and as impressive as they can be, the result still looks rendered and extremely stylised, which, is fine if your going for that kind of look but unsuitable if your not, you'll be reaching for an actual landscape shot otherwise. :thumbs:
 
Photoshop is just a tool, a piece of equipement like any other part of your kit. The important part of any kit is learning how to use it and when to use it.
 
you dont have to pay someone to do what you used to
and you can compare the photoshop original with the supplied product...print etc

you want to get what you see on the screen

so many times the prints i have got have not been quite what i took on 35mm film

now i get spot on prints via the digital system...happy bird!!
 
I'm still of the firm belief that you can't polish a turd. Photoshop is a powerful tool, and excellent at polishing diamonds in the rough. Anything beyond that is starting to cross the border towards drawing/art, and away from phtoography, all IMHO..
 
Photoshop is great. It's another tool in the box. There's no justifiable reason to be anti- it, just snobbery.
 
i think the name photoshop is generic

loads of freebie ware available...the object is to develop and transmit the 'negative' which you have taken

you dont have to polish it if its a turd and you mean it to be a turd...
 
I see it as a blessing and old-time greats like Bill Brandt and Ansel Adams would most certainly have used "photoshop" (that being the generic term for all post processing of digital images using any software in this case as MrCrow says) if they could have. I'm also pretty sure they'd be pushing the uses of post-processing to it's limits just as they did with darkroom chemicals and the like.
 
I see it as a blessing and old-time greats like Bill Brandt and Ansel Adams would most certainly have used "photoshop" (that being the generic term for all post processing of digital images using any software in this case as MrCrow says) if they could have. I'm also pretty sure they'd be pushing the uses of post-processing to it's limits just as they did with darkroom chemicals and the like.

mentioning ansel adams and his printer...using every trick in the book to get those images to come out so powerfully
the photoshop was in the hands of the printer...not all of adams negatives could be printed straight off..due to his exposure system

defo a 'photoshop' guy
 
Anything beyond that is starting to cross the border towards drawing/art, and away from phtoography, all IMHO..
Does that mean that photography is not art? Admittedly I approach it like a science, but it is an art form after all.

Personally I feel that Photoshop is an essential part of the process; after all who here has ever taken a RAW file and done nothing to it before exporting the jpeg?
 
You can use Photoshop to improve the impact of any image (selective dodging and burning, sharpening, etc), but it helps if you're starting with something decent to begin with.

Of course if you're using photoshop to merge and combine several different images to produce something completely new (album artwork, posters, etc) then that's a completely different story.
 
I think each has it's place John. Photoshop can't make a location, can't right a wrong composition or sort bad lighting. To make a great image it is still best to get it as close to perfect as you can in camera. That's when photoshop becomes a truly great tool.

While I agree that Photoshop can't make a good location, I disagree that it can't fix composition or lighting, these are some of the simpler things to do in Photoshop in fact with a crop tool and either levels, curves or the multitude of manipulation filters that are provided.
 
can't right a wrong composition or sort bad lighting.

Content aware scaling, cropping, replacing an entire background for composition, and a whole raft of tools to address lighting.

Nik Software have Viveza to make light manipulation pretty easy too


the result still looks rendered and extremely stylised

Depends on how much cash you've got ;)

http://reelsessions.com/nouvellevague/archives/1261

And you can blend real backdrops with digital effects for interesting results...

http://www.stargatefilms.com/page.php?section=7

I'm still of the firm belief that you can't polish a turd.

But you can roll it in glitter ;)


The only requirement is money, time and talent. The better the image to start with, the less post production is required.

You can also separate the photograph as an art for from the photograph as a document of a point in time, and these should be considered as 2 different things.
 
Indeed, Ansel Adams likened a photograph to being like a piece of live music, the negative was the score and the print was the performance. The same rings true with photoshop

I see it as a blessing and old-time greats like Bill Brandt and Ansel Adams would most certainly have used "photoshop" (that being the generic term for all post processing of digital images using any software in this case as MrCrow says) if they could have. I'm also pretty sure they'd be pushing the uses of post-processing to it's limits just as they did with darkroom chemicals and the like.
 
Depends on how much cash you've got ;)

http://reelsessions.com/nouvellevague/archives/1261

And you can blend real backdrops with digital effects for interesting results...

http://www.stargatefilms.com/page.php?section=7


Agreed.

I've watched the BTS vid for the Eminem shoot a while back, I really enjoyed watching that, very interesting indeed.

I'm also aware that chromakey and the like can produce great results too and of course the digital wonders that studio's can cook cook up for film, but it's a little out of context with the more accessible programs that Daryl was suggesting and also a very different league with regards to the OP.

The debate seems to be chugging along to the tune of the capabilities of post production and whether photoshop somehow makes life easier or promotes laziness.

To whip up the creations in the example links you've posted is far from easy, it takes considerable resource, budget and above all - skill and ability.

I'm still of the firm belief that you can't polish a turd.

But you can roll it in glitter ;)

Then it'll be a glittery turd, unless that's the desired result ;)
 
Ah, but I was trying to address this question / point from the op

I like and use photoshop but at the same time it seems that someone who was really skilled using it could take any old picture and make it seem look great.

And the comments that Photoshop (being the generic term for post production) can't address certain issues around composition, lighting and location.

Photoshop allows us to do all of these things and more, and with additional resources we can do some incredible things but it shouldn't be a crutch to poor photographic technique or bad planning of a shot.
 
Photoshop allows us to do all of these things and more, and with additional resources we can do some incredible things but it shouldn't be a crutch to poor photographic technique or bad planning of a shot.

Gotcha :thumbs: IMO though, a 'good' photog won't ever lean on the post ;) (No pun intended:lol:)

No matter the tech, the human element is responsible for the outcome, we are always the deciding factor. :thumbs:
 
Of course you can improve composition with post processing!
You've been able to do this for years, way before photoshop came on the scene.
Famously, John Filo's photograph of Mary Ann Vecchio had a fence post removed (a cardinal sin in newspaper photography) to improve the composition. And this was in the 1970's. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Filo )

I'd argue that with the power of Photoshop now it's quite easy to polish a turd - you can take a wonky badly exposed picture of a nice sunset and have it looking good in a few minutes. A picture that would have been discarded a few years ago.
Or take a portrait with the wrong lens (say a 35mm lens stopped down to F16) which includes way too much background detail. You can crop it and blur the background in no time at all.
 
Of course you can improve composition with post processing!
You've been able to do this for years, way before photoshop came on the scene.
Famously, John Filo's photograph of Mary Ann Vecchio had a fence post removed (a cardinal sin in newspaper photography) to improve the composition. And this was in the 1970's. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Filo )

I'd argue that with the power of Photoshop now it's quite easy to polish a turd - you can take a wonky badly exposed picture of a nice sunset and have it looking good in a few minutes. A picture that would have been discarded a few years ago.
Or take a portrait with the wrong lens (say a 35mm lens stopped down to F16) which includes way too much background detail. You can crop it and blur the background in no time at all.

or in varying degrees

what does one do to a negative...print it straight???!!!!
 
Interestingly guest blogger Peter Eastway on Scott Kelby's blog today talks about use of photoshop, and the perception of its use.

http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2010/archives/7617


what a crock of crap that is...:shake:

why would somebody think that swapping the grey mountains in their photo to jaffa orange mountains, is ok
and then whine about how "peeps who are not photographers" :cuckoo: suggesting that this pic was not entirely cos-ha.
 
what a crock of crap that is...:shake:

It's not crap at all IMO, he's flappin a far bit of truth there...

Is it hard to believe that there are folk out there, who feel it odd that some seem extremely uncomfortable with images or photographs failing to implicitly represent reality?
Even when it's presented as art?

If a photo isn't considered 'real' why must it be somehow offensive?

Regardless of artistic element, effort, planning, passion put into the production and the skill involved to achieve the results, after the discovery that it may not be perceived as 100% 'real', no matter if it were presented as art and not journalism, it's pretty strange that it becomes of little value and must then be condemned in some form.

Fair play to the guy, looks like he gets about and shoots some pretty fine photography.
 
It's not crap at all IMO, he's flappin a far bit of truth there...

That's just your opinion, to me its a crock of crap, but I defend your right to see it differently..

Is it hard to believe that there are folk out there, who feel it odd that some seem extremely uncomfortable with images or photographs failing to implicitly represent reality?
Even when it's presented as art?

If a photo isn't considered 'real' why must it be somehow offensive?


Uncomfortable, offensive ?? it just has to look as though it might exist.

Regardless of artistic element, effort, planning, passion put into the production and the skill involved to achieve the results, after the discovery that it may not be perceived as 100% 'real', no matter if it were presented as art and not journalism, it's pretty strange that it becomes of little value and must then be condemned in some form.

Fair play to the guy, looks like he gets about and shoots some pretty fine photography.

Now that IS an interesting thought...it becomes of little value in photography circles ???
Isn't that what its all about, isn't that the whole who har of why "anything goes" has to be inextricably linked to photography for some peeps, because without the photography link, "anything goes" has no credibility....:shrug:
Yeah, its the stupidest thing I've ever heard, art is art, surely digital art is valued just like any other art and could stand on its own two feet..

:)
 
That's just your opinion, to me its a crock of crap, but I defend your right to see it differently..

Appreciated. :thumbs:

Uncomfortable, offensive ?? it just has to look as though it might exist.

Yes Sirree, offence and discomfort are certainly the more frequent.

Now that IS an interesting thought...it becomes of little value in photography circles ???

If 'photography circles' means fellow photographers then yes, I'd say most of the above reactions come from photographers. Dare I say it's not uncommon for them to have quite an axe to grind with the advances of technology too.

It is a little strange, I come from both ends of the 'stick', shooting journalism/sports and then creative and themed portraits, or at least that's what I attempt/try for.
Every journalism image has a process applied afterward, I shoot in raw format and apply a little finesse before publishing but that's as far as it requires.
Portraits or my own personal projects, anything will go, in accordance to suit the concept or theme.

Isn't that what its all about, isn't that the whole who har of why "anything goes" has to be inextricably linked to photography for some peeps, because without the photography link, "anything goes" has no credibility....:shrug:
Yeah, its the stupidest thing I've ever heard, art is art, surely digital art is valued just like any other art and could stand on its own two feet..:)

My apologies but I'm really not sure what your trying to explain here.

There is that Digital art description again though, as far as I'm aware, a digital artist is basically an illustrator or painter but uses a virtual medium as opposed to the physical.

If you were to demand the same level of photographic skills from a digital artist as you would a experienced portraits photographer for example, I think the vast percentage of DA's would most likely be at a loss to provide the same quality result.

What I can't relate to digital art are photographers who composite or apply certain post styles or technique to the photo's they take, nor do I relate photographers who alter or manipulate their photo's in any way to digital art.

If it's created with a camera and lens and cannot exist without the said camera and lens, then it's still photography for me. I like to keep it simple.

When one strays away from this simplicity, it begins to get quite unstable:
A slight levels adjustment in post is acceptable, then a curves or hue/saturation adjustment is acceptable, cropping has to be acceptable, is straightening acceptable? maybe a double exposure could also be acceptable?, is dodging and burning acceptable? Is cloning or healing acceptable? but splicing a collection of frames together to produce a composite is that not acceptable?.....

It's art. If it has substance, has narrative, makes you think, inspires or influences etc, then it's all acceptable.

I once recall a conversation by two photog friends talking about Drew Gardener and the Badger shot featured in his Location Lighting DVD.
Long story short, one opinion was that Drew cheated and broke the rules because he made a composite, so his conclusion - that it's not photography and he's not a real photographer.
It didn't matter that he flexed his knowledge and creative license of an experienced photog, nor did it matter about the skills that were evident working with his subjects, models, crew, lighting and exposure etc.

A composite simply can't be logically transformed into digital art because one has to deny the photographic ingredients to arrive at that conclusion, it's just another face or flavour of photography. :)
 
ok smart dicks
who is going to NOT use 'photoshop' in future
this covers straightening, cropping, and minor variations in contrast and saturation

and for me sharpening...on resizing
 
I can't see what all the fuss is about really?
Photoshop ( or any other similar program) is just another tool. You're far better getting it as close to perfection as you can "in camera" but if you don't quite make it then Photoshop is pretty useful! And anyway... you certainly need it for basic sharpening of any digital image.

Are we so paranoid as photographers nowadays? All this "arty farty" stuff really gets up my nose sometimes. It's the end result that matters. As far as my work goes if I like it then great... if anyone else doesn't then so what?
 
To me, Photoshop's simply a part of the picture processing sequence, just as much as having a CP filter on the end of your lens or taking the shot with IS turned on.

There's a big difference between using it simply for processing in a 'dark room' fashion, and out and out digital manipulation (which heads into more 'artistic' realms, but is still photography nonetheless), but hey, I'm sure that film users were aghast when digital cameras first appeared, "What the Dickens?! If it's not on film then it's not proper photography!"
 
When I took up photography one year ago I said I was only going to shoot jpeg in order to limit my photo shop options and encourage me to be the best photographer I could be. One year on and I'm still shooting jpeg and enjoy it!

The only down side is my photos are rubbish! :D
 
I suppose it depends how you use it.

For example, if someone's took a picture thats not all that great, blurred and too dull, they can cheat with photoshop, sharpening the image and lightening it up, which If they'd took it right in the first place they wouldn't need to, so in that sense its not so great.

But for example, I'm in an indoor arena taking some pictures of horses jumping, its in a rough area, and a ramshackle building, everywhere you look there is falling down walls, piles of crap and general nastiness, but I need a wide angle shot to get the whole horse in, so alas I'm going to get some of that crap in the background, that simply can't be helped.

Now this is where photoshop does help, you can edit out the crap in the background if you want to be complex or something as simple as layering the image so the horse (the central focus) is in colour, and all the crap in black and white so that it draws your eye to the subject and away from the crap can make the picture look ten times better.

So really I guess its how you use it.

Good question though :clap: +1
 
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