NSFW Photojournalist slammed for not intervening

I haven't read the story or the photographer and this is the first I've heard of it so my comments may be wide of the mark...

Assuming that the photographer feared for his own life and couldn't intervene or even shout for the killers to leave their victim in peace... I'd agree with taking pictures to help the police catch the killers and if the photographer had a phone with him he should have called the police / emergency services PDQ. In fact assuming he couldn't intervene then calling the emergency services (if there are any) should have been job 1 and pictures should have been job 2.

If he did all he could, as in called the emergency services and then took his pictures, then fair enough and I don't care about the photos but if wasted just one second being a photographer rather than doing the decent thing... and assisting or at least comforting a dying man should come before taking pictures, then IMVHO he's a lesser man than he should be and may he have his excuses ready when he stands before God.
 
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Byker28i said:
The part written by someone who was there - no someone sat thousands of miles away you mean?

Since you feel so strongly, why not write a complaint to the press complaints
http://www.pcc.org.uk/

or
The Sunday Times has established a fund to assist the family of Emmanuel Sithole. Anyone wishing to contribute can pay their donation into the following bank account:

Account name : Sunday Times Readers
Bank : Standard Bank
Branch : Rosebank
Account no : 00 160 4783
Branch code : 51001
Reference : Emmanuel

Please note the reference: Emmanuel.


Note: I got those details from James Facebook page...
I suggest you read some of the comments
https://www.facebook.com/jamesoatway#
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thanks. I've sent my complaint in. Appreciate the info
 
Slammed by whom ?,It wont be the first time or the last photos like this are taken and some hit the world media big time,and some find it easy to shoot the messages,from the comfort of being safe 1 mile or thousands of miles from the situation.
:(
 
CanonDjango said:
I donated when it first came to light of course, hope you did also
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Sorry just got in. I truly meant glad you reported it. Whilst I strongly disagree with your view, I find it refreshing these days when people take actions to support their view, rather than simply type on a forum.
 
viv1969 said:
Doing so well until that point.
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It's all ifs and buts but if he did waste a second... my theory is there's b****r all chance of the photographer having to account for his actions or being judged before that (possible/impossible depending upon your view) event.
 
Here is an interesting take from Greg Marinovich, who was a member of the 'Bang Bang Club' in the 90's.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/op...frican-murder-xenophobia-150421132045028.html

It's interesting that there is a lot to say about the photographer who and not much about the rest of the public who were standing around and failed to intervene. He made an effort to get the injured man to a medical facility, which is more than most people would do. He could have just let the poor man lie there, call an ambulance and let the ambulance arrive whenever it might do / if indeed it would even turn up. Had he physically intervened he would no doubt had been a victim himself - no amount of shouting would have stopped that from taking place.
 
Like the pic
CanonDjango said:
No it wasn't. The reporter and his team took him to the hospital.

After he took some photos of him lying in the dirt. Dying
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Like the iconic picture of Hector Peterson, the boy killed in Soweto and which became an image used to help portray the evils of Apartheid?
 
woof woof said:
It's all ifs and buts but if he did waste a second... my theory is there's b****r all chance of the photographer having to account for his actions or being judged before that (possible/impossible depending upon your view) event.
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If sithole had been stabbed in the heart there's nothing anyone (short of a trauma team with an operating theatre) could have done to prevent him dying - so oatway has nothing to account for - the few minutes (if that long ) that he spent doing his job made absolute zero difference to sitholes fate
 
big soft moose said:
If sithole had been stabbed in the heart there's nothing anyone (short of a trauma team with an operating theatre) could have done to prevent him dying - so oatway has nothing to account for - the few minutes (if that long ) that he spent doing his job made absolute zero difference to sitholes fate
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There's the option of comforting a dying man rather than taking pictures of him dying. Putting the camera down and holding his hand wont prevent him dying but maybe it's the better and more human thing to do. How many pictures are needed for the story? The guy isn't a news story first he's a man first and he just might appreciate a moments humanity before he passes.
 
woof woof said:
There's the option of comforting a dying man rather than taking pictures of him dying. Putting the camera down and holding his hand wont prevent him dying but maybe it's the better and more human thing to do. How many pictures are needed for the story? The guy isn't a news story first he's a man first and he just might appreciate a moments humanity before he passes.
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on the flip side though its the photo journalsis job to tell the story - and may be telling the story might help stop such occurences in the long run. (also he clearly did help him - in fact he was pretty much the only one who did)
 
woof woof said:
There's the option of comforting a dying man rather than taking pictures of him dying. Putting the camera down and holding his hand wont prevent him dying but maybe it's the better and more human thing to do. How many pictures are needed for the story? The guy isn't a news story first he's a man first and he just might appreciate a moments humanity before he passes.
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Read the story?

The red-shirt man tried to get up but fell. Finally he made it to his feet. Feebly, he walked up the road.
Do you know why they attacked you? Who are you? Where are you from, we asked him.
He turned his head towards the questions fired at him, his face pleading. He said nothing. His shirt was drenched, a 2cm gash in his chest.
Metres further he stumbled and lay down in the gutter. He struggled to sit up and fell down.

At this point Oatway was taking images until he fell down. Would you instantly know the extent of his injuries, know that he had been stabbed in the heart?
At the point he fell down, according to the journalist who was there...

"Help me get him into the car. Help me, please," said photographer James Oatway, looking around at the men gathered around him. One stepped forward, reluctantly.

There was no minutes that people are claiming. Comfort a dying man? How does anyone know at that point he's dying. A decent man would try to rush him to medical help, which Oatway did.

So easy when you're not there, have hindsight, passing morale judgement from thousands of miles away. Oatway took more action than any of the other onlookers
 
It's a fine line and I'm thankful that I haven't been in that situation.

I've been threatened with a knife but that was diffused by me producing a very large screwdriver in a sort of Crocodile Dundee moment, the camera took no pictures. I've also been confronted with guns twice in asia and again on both occasions the camera wasn't used, and no one was injured in any of these situations.
 
woof woof said:
It's a fine line and I'm thankful that I haven't been in that situation.

I've been threatened with a knife but that was diffused by me producing a very large screwdriver in a sort of Crocodile Dundee moment, the camera took no pictures. I've also been confronted with guns twice in asia and again on both occasions the camera wasn't used, and no one was injured in any of these situations.
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Not sure what type of comparison you are trying to make?
 
woof woof said:
Yes.

Read my posts? Come back and have another pop at me when you have.
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Not having a pop, answering your post where you said:

woof woof said:
There's the option of comforting a dying man rather than taking pictures of him dying.
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Criticism of his actions

woof woof said:
Putting the camera down and holding his hand wont prevent him dying but maybe it's the better and more human thing to do.
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Again criticising his actions, implying he's not human because he took photos


woof woof said:
How many pictures are needed for the story? The guy isn't a news story first he's a man first and he just might appreciate a moments humanity before he passes.
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Again criticising his actions

As i stated in post 55, I think you're wrong to criticise him. You weren't there but from the only testimony of those there, James Oatway in his radio interview, and the journalist Beauregard Tromp, once thet realised how injured he was he stopped taking images and got him to medical assistance. Again as I said in post 55, it's easy to be critical when you weren't there.
 
Byker28i said:
As i stated in post 55, I think you're wrong to criticise him. You weren't there but from the only testimony of those there, James Oatway in his radio interview, and the journalist Beauregard Tromp, once thet realised how injured he was he stopped taking images and got him to medical assistance. Again as I said in post 55, it's easy to be critical when you weren't there.
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Sorry I dont think you need to be there to criticise his actions, although you will note from my posts I never criticised him not intervening.

My problem is the need to photograph a dying man and I've yet to hear a compelling reason why he did. But thats just my opinion, this is a photographic forum and many here will applaud him for what he did and I understand why they would, but I do not agree.

Had I have been there I doubt I would have intervened but what I am certain of, is that I wouldnt have taken the pictures of him dying in the street.
 
big soft moose said:
If sithole had been stabbed in the heart there's nothing anyone (short of a trauma team with an operating theatre) could have done to prevent him dying - so oatway has nothing to account for - the few minutes (if that long ) that he spent doing his job made absolute zero difference to sitholes fate
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The point you are missing is that Oatway could not know that at the time. Nobody could know that so if you don't know that for sure then you should be doing everything in your power to assist. Not composing photographs.
 
CanonDjango said:
The point you are missing is that Oatway could not know that at the time. Nobody could know that so if you don't know that for sure then you should be doing everything in your power to assist. Not composing photographs.
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but taking photos of that kind of thing is his job
 
so should Nick Ut have taken this

napalm-nick-ut-600x450.jpg


or should he have been helping those children ?

Bearing in mind that the picture probably helped to shorten the war , he propbably did more good by pressing the shutter
 
big soft moose said:
so should Nick Ut have taken this

napalm-nick-ut-600x450.jpg


or should he have been helping those children ?

Bearing in mind that the picture probably helped to shorten the war , he propbably did more good by pressing the shutter
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We are talking about James Oatway in this thread.
 
Dave1 said:
I thought the discussion as about photojournalists and their duty towards their job or the subjects of their photos?
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No the thread is about James Oatway and his actions.

Otherwise it would have a more generic title. But that would be a good discussion too. Maybe start a spin off thread
 
big soft moose said:
so should Nick Ut have taken this

napalm-nick-ut-600x450.jpg


or should he have been helping those children ?

Bearing in mind that the picture probably helped to shorten the war , he propbably did more good by pressing the shutter
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I think the Americans making a fubar from start to finish, then running like a whipped dog had more to do with ending that particular conflict. :-)
 
big soft moose said:
Bearing in mind that the picture probably helped to shorten the war , he propbably did more good by pressing the shutter
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I'm not so sure it did that, Kissinger was already negotiating a peace agreement with the north well before this image was published. Oposition to the war in the US had been going on for many years and it was most likely the American casuality figures that shortened the Vietnam war, well that and the draft, and not Nick Ut's photograph.
 
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Dave1 said:
The thread title is



How much more generic do you propose it be?
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That isn't generic AT ALL.

the op is specifically about James Oatway being slammed for what he did.

I don't understand how you can't grasp such a simple concept about what this thread is about

Have you actually read the OP?it even has a link specifically about the Oatway story.
 
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CanonDjango said:
That isn't generic AT ALL.

the op is specifically about James Oatway being slammed for what he did.

I don't understand how you can't grasp such a simple concept about what this thread is about

Have you actually read the OP?it even has a link specifically about the Oatway story.
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Do you like moving goalposts?

The title that you mention is generic, the OP then discusses Oatway, but there have also been other examples mentioned in the thread.

Also, surely the thread should be discussing what the title is about?

It's quite simple,
Photojournalist slammed for not intervening

Or do you not actually mean what you write?

CanonDjango said:
No the thread is about James Oatway and his actions.

Otherwise it would have a more generic title.
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What "more generic title" would you use for a less specific thread that you feel you are able to demand?

Oh, and I missed the memo, who made you the forum warden that gets to decide what is and isn't discussed?
 
Make a new thread.

This one is about Oatway.

These last few posts are in danger of derailing it which would be a shame
 
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CanonDjango said:
Make a new thread.

This one is about Oatway.

These last few posts are in danger of derailing it which would be a shame
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No, by the title it's about photojournalists. Oatway happened to be the prime discussion, nothing prevents other journalists being discussed.

You really need to lose the attitude. This isn't your thread or your forum, and you can chose to reply or ignore, but you can't tell others what to do.

If you PM Marcel and ask, maybe he will make you a mini-mod, just for this thread. That would make you happy, wouldn't it?
 
Sigh.

Ok you are clearly looking for a fight. I'm not. Feel free to discuss whatever you would like to. The thread is about Oatway and you seem hell bent on derailing it. That's fine.

If you do decide to start a separate thread then I'd be interested in reading it. If not fine. Just chill. It's Saturday night.
 
Dave1 said:
No, by the title it's about photojournalists. Oatway happened to be the prime discussion, nothing prevents other journalists being discussed.

You really need to lose the attitude. This isn't your thread or your forum, and you can chose to reply or ignore, but you can't tell others what to do.

If you PM Marcel and ask, maybe he will make you a mini-mod, just for this thread. That would make you happy, wouldn't it?
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To be completely factual, the title of the thread refers only to a photojournalist. ..one...singular...non-plural.
That single photojournalist, and the story related to why he, and he alone is the subject of the slamming Is then expanded upon in the opening post.
 
Indeed and the real point being that people starting to use other examples in relation to Oatway are useless. Different circumstances and so have no baring at all on the subject matter of the particular discussion. Which is about whether Oatway should or shouldn't have done what he did. Not whether photojournalists in general should do what they do.
 
viv1969 said:
To be completely factual, the title of the thread refers only to a photojournalist. ..one...singular...non-plural.
That single photojournalist, and the story related to why he, and he alone is the subject of the slamming Is then expanded upon in the opening post.
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Still doesn't give a self important "user" (other 4 letter words available) the right to try and moderate the discussion. He has the right to ignore other users, not tell them what to do.
 
  • Dave1 said:
    Still doesn't give a self important "user" (other 4 letter words available) the right to try and moderate the discussion. He has the right to ignore other users, not tell them what to do.
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    I think the words you're looking for are: Yes, I was wrong. There is indeed nothing generic about the thread title nor the opening post.

    There, that wasn't too hard, was it?
 
CanonDjango said:
We are talking about James Oatway in this thread.
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sigh - I forgot you'd be too litteral minded to understand a parallel (or at least that you'd pretend to be for the sake of argument)

Yes we are talking about Oatway - but it ought to be obvious that I was using a comparison to make the point , Nick Uts job was to take photos not comfort distressed children (and whether or not that particular image shortened the war - photojournalism of the various attrocities of the war in general helped put pressure on the american govt to get their act together)

Likewise with McCullins pictures of famine in africa - his job is to let the world know what is happening, not to help individual starving children

Equally Oatway's job is to take photos , not to render first aid and comfort to victims of violence - and by taking the shots he did he has raised awareness of what is happening down there - just the fact that we are having this discussion demonstrates that

(oh and Joe you arent a mod so don't tell me what i can or can't post )
 
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