Photo credits - is it our culture?

phil8139

phil8139

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I know that doing work requires a payment, that can be monetary down to voluntary kudos.

In most cases, people or buyers try to get away with saying 'We will credit you in .....' now here is my query. Is it just a british way of doing things and in most cases the images are used without the credit being applied?

My reason for asking is this, while on holiday in Gozo (Malta) I went to a beach festival where there were a few Maltese bands playing, my camera goes everywhere and I got some good images of the bands. One gave me their details to forward on some pics, they said they would credit me if any were used, and true to their word, they have. They have been in some local music mags and the credit is there, they even tag me in the pics so I can see how they are used/getting on.

These are holiday snaps, for fun and pleasure, they had their own photographer there doing his thing.

Phil.
 
No, it happens everywhere, and it's just people cashing in on amateurs desperation to get tear sheets and attribution. Do so when you are starting out... but slam the door shut firmly when you have a decent client base.

There is an argument to suggest that you never, ever give your work away IMO. It can only ever be damaging long term if people constantly seek out people starting up or students to get free work from them
 
phil8139 said:
In most cases, people or buyers try to get away with saying 'We will credit you in .....' now here is my query. Is it just a british way of doing things and in most cases the images are used without the credit being applied?
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Provided tthat he moral right has been asserted, there's a legal obligation to credit the originator of a photograph, albeit with certain notable expceptions; ie for the reporting of current affairs, for print media such as newspapers and magazines, and for use in reference books.

The full details are in sections 77, 78 and 79 of the CDPA 1988:


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/part/I/chapter/IV

Therefore what you may be seeing is newspapers and magazines trying to get free copy for credit, when they aren't even obliged to credit in the first place.

Give me cash over credit any day.
 
Phil does that read correctly? You and the official photographer took pics... yours got published in magazines for credit but not the official photographers?

just asking cus thats how it reads.. nothing between the lines :)
 
Hmmm, I think I may have put this across wrong.

I fully understand the paid v free issues, I think what I am trying to say is that over here it seems a struggle and a constant battle with people 'stealing' images or trying to get them for free for a credit. I also fully understand that is exactly what has happened to my holiday pics, it may be my rose tinted glasses or my yearning to go back there, but for someone to have my pics (a small band creeping up the maltese charts) and still give me the credit, tag me into the pic on facebook, is a refreshing change. They could have not bothered, I wouldn't find out.

Yes they had their own photographer, a groupie/friend with an entry level camera, a candle power flash and a nice guy. Gave him a few tips on settings. The pic was in the paper showing the top 20 charts.

As for it being people cashing in on desperation, there was no desperation on my part, no ego chasing, no tearsheet / portfolio building. Holiday snaps don't pay my mortgage however good they were over their own.
 
It all sounds to me like the beginning of a wonderful friendship. They've honoured their promise, which I think is admirable, and clearly you're also taken with this. It's a relationship that I imagine is worth fostering.

If they record their first album in the UK (which overseas bands often like to do), perhaps you'll get the opportunity to shoot that artwork, spend time shooting candidly with them in the studio, etc.

Their success can be your success. :)
 
SimonH said:
It all sounds to me like the beginning of a wonderful friendship. They've honoured their promise, which I think is admirable, and clearly you're also taken with this. It's a relationship that I imagine is worth fostering.

If they record their first album in the UK (which overseas bands often like to do), perhaps you'll get the opportunity to shoot that artwork, spend time shooting candidly with them in the studio, etc.

Their success can be your success. :)
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Why thank you kind sire, im humbled that you share my joy :D
 
DemiLion said:
Provided tthat he moral right has been asserted, there's a legal obligation to credit the originator of a photograph, albeit with certain notable expceptions; ie for the reporting of current affairs, for print media such as newspapers and magazines, and for use in reference books.

The full details are in sections 77, 78 and 79 of the CDPA 1988:


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/part/I/chapter/IV

Therefore what you may be seeing is newspapers and magazines trying to get free copy for credit, when they aren't even obliged to credit in the first place.

Give me cash over credit any day.
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FWIW, French law goes a little further than UK law on this point. AFAIK, it applies in all publications.

Furthermore, in France, the right to be credited as the author of a work is one of the moral rights which cannot be ceded by contract. You can't sign away your rights to claim a credit, even in return for payment.

Also, it does not expire, so the right to have your name associated with a work can be asserted by your heirs long after the usual 70 year period of expiry of copyright.
 
Musicman said:
FWIW, French law goes a little further than UK law on this point. AFAIK, it applies in all publications.

Furthermore, in France, the right to be credited as the author of a work is one of the moral rights which cannot be ceded by contract. You can't sign away your rights to claim a credit, even in return for payment.
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I can't dispute the facts, Rob, but I will say that it appears very different in practice.
I've just scanned the regional daily here and, although there are numerous agency credits in the national section, there is not one credit for a photo in the regional part. They've published several of mine over the past year or so and never credited.

Bob
 
phil8139 said:
Hmmm, I think I may have put this across wrong.

I fully understand the paid v free issues, I think what I am trying to say is that over here it seems a struggle and a constant battle with people 'stealing' images or trying to get them for free for a credit. I also fully understand that is exactly what has happened to my holiday pics, it may be my rose tinted glasses or my yearning to go back there, but for someone to have my pics (a small band creeping up the maltese charts) and still give me the credit, tag me into the pic on facebook, is a refreshing change. They could have not bothered, I wouldn't find out.

Yes they had their own photographer, a groupie/friend with an entry level camera, a candle power flash and a nice guy. Gave him a few tips on settings. The pic was in the paper showing the top 20 charts.

As for it being people cashing in on desperation, there was no desperation on my part, no ego chasing, no tearsheet / portfolio building. Holiday snaps don't pay my mortgage however good they were over their own.
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I think they are mindful of the fact they got them off you with the "we will credit you" con.So they are doing right to you by crediting as they said.:thumbs: PS I have lost count of how many times I have had the "I will credit you" con. I now say "I am not bothered with the credit just pay me,credits don't pay the gas bill". :lol:
 
I'm almost always happy to give my shots away. I've even done a "comissioned" shoot for free for a friend's work (took all of 15 minutes and gave me something specific to do). I shall be getting credited for that shoot (but not paid) but have done a few where I haven't been credited (my choice) since I'm not a pro so don't need the publicity (and my ego is one that doesn't need any massaging!) For the "unpaid" shoots, I have been rewarded - in monetary terms, probably better than a pro's hourly rate! Again, the shoot didn't take too long (maybe 30 minutes), involved no travel costs specific to the "job" and the PP involved was just a quick resizing and sharpening of the selected shots. The number of free coffees my wife and I earned from it must run into hundreds by now! FTR, the shots that mine have replaced in the brochure and on the website were "pro" taken at an appreciable expense. Mine really were (and still are!) far better both technically (for which I thank Nikon and their metering!) and artistically (more because the old ones were so bad than because mine are so good - but at least mine have level horizons, vertical walls and nicely finished made beds!) than the pro ones, possibly because I was doing them for a friend rather than a customer who I didn't care about beyond the payment cheque.

I don't (and won't) do weddings or events - mainly because I lack the people skills and patience to organise groups and can't be dealing with drunks any more!

One reason for me not wanting payment for shots here or abroad is that my tax situation is complicated enough and any more hassle would require an accountant to sort the tax affairs out and the subsequent costs that would involve. I am a pure amateur - I take photographs (and happy snaps!) for the love of it.
 
Nod said:
I'm almost always happy to give my shots away. I've even done a "comissioned" shoot for free for a friend's work (took all of 15 minutes and gave me something specific to do). I shall be getting credited for that shoot (but not paid) but have done a few where I haven't been credited (my choice) since I'm not a pro so don't need the publicity (and my ego is one that doesn't need any massaging!) For the "unpaid" shoots, I have been rewarded - in monetary terms, probably better than a pro's hourly rate! Again, the shoot didn't take too long (maybe 30 minutes), involved no travel costs specific to the "job" and the PP involved was just a quick resizing and sharpening of the selected shots. The number of free coffees my wife and I earned from it must run into hundreds by now! FTR, the shots that mine have replaced in the brochure and on the website were "pro" taken at an appreciable expense. Mine really were (and still are!) far better both technically (for which I thank Nikon and their metering!) and artistically (more because the old ones were so bad than because mine are so good - but at least mine have level horizons, vertical walls and nicely finished made beds!) than the pro ones, possibly because I was doing them for a friend rather than a customer who I didn't care about beyond the payment cheque.

I don't (and won't) do weddings or events - mainly because I lack the people skills and patience to organise groups and can't be dealing with drunks any more!

One reason for me not wanting payment for shots here or abroad is that my tax situation is complicated enough and any more hassle would require an accountant to sort the tax affairs out and the subsequent costs that would involve. I am a pure amateur - I take photographs (and happy snaps!) for the love of it.
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How noble of you.:lol:
 
Did I screw either of you over? Do either of you take the kind of shots I have been able to give away? If so, I'm sorry but if not, then please feel free to go forth and multiply!
 
Nod said:
Did I screw either of you over? Do either of you take the kind of shots I have been able to give away? If so, I'm sorry but if not, then please feel free to go forth and multiply!
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cheer up fella.. just having a laugh... you wanted a reaction.. you got one... you couldnt wait to react to ours... its not like we cant see that..
 
BTW, Kipax, theres someone looking for a horse racing picture for the company she works for - no budget. Don't know if you do racing snaps as well as other sports?
 
And I wasn't looking for a reaction, I was just stating a fact or 2.
 
Nod said:
BTW, Kipax, theres someone looking for a horse racing picture for the company she works for - no budget. Don't know if you do racing snaps as well as other sports?
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horse racing is on my hit list of sports never done.. but want to do .. just never had the opportunity unfortunatly.
 
Nod said:
And I wasn't looking for a reaction, I was just stating a fact or 2.
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So you had no idea what the reaction would be and you wernt waiting to pounce on the guaranteed reaction and you never played chess in your life..... OK :)
 
I have played chess and I'm pretty crap at it! I know the moves but not the strategies. Pretty good at backgammon and a few variants though.

And I certainly wasn't waiting to pounce! If I had been (and possibly if I was expecting a reaction like I got) I wouldn't have waited over an hour before posting a reply. Besides, I leave the pouncing to the cat. Far too old to really care.
 
Nod said:
BTW, Kipax, theres someone looking for a horse racing picture for the company she works for - no budget. Don't know if you do racing snaps as well as other sports?
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If you're serious, 'Seba' is probably one of the more experienced racing photographers on here. Failing that I do a bit.
 
Mark, my original post was intended as a light hearted jest to help defuse a conversation Tony and I were having in another thread. I am serious about someone being after a racehorse photo - last time I looked, it was the thread directly above this one.

(Oops! Actually, that discussion was further up this thread!)
 
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Nod said:
Mark, my original post was intended as a light hearted jest to help defuse a conversation Tony and I were having in another thread. I am serious about someone being after a racehorse photo - last time I looked, it was the thread directly above this one.

(Oops! Actually, that discussion was further up this thread!)
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Yup, I've just seen the thread. Someone else wanting a pic for free-for their company! :D
 
Nod said:
One reason for me not wanting payment for shots here or abroad is that my tax situation is complicated enough and any more hassle would require an accountant to sort the tax affairs out and the subsequent costs that would involve. I am a pure amateur - I take photographs (and happy snaps!) for the love of it.
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You might want to hold off on relaxing about your tax affairs.

Payment in means other than money is still payment. Those hundreds of coffees and anything else you received "in lieu of payment" are still declarable as income, and taxable.

and this is a public forum..... :wave:
 
The coffees aren't in direct payment and just gifts.

You may well be a tax inspector or similar and TBH, I don't care! The amount of tax I've paid over the past few years is way too much anyway so the taxman can kiss my shiny, fleshy wotsit! ETA and that would be the Greek taxman...
 
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Pookeyhead said:
No, it happens everywhere, and it's just people cashing in on amateurs desperation to get tear sheets and attribution. Do so when you are starting out... but slam the door shut firmly when you have a decent client base.

There is an argument to suggest that you never, ever give your work away IMO. It can only ever be damaging long term if people constantly seek out people starting up or students to get free work from them
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I can definately see evidense this way of doing business has been increasing.

Theres a local tour company near me that I'v used a few times for Himalayan trekking trips, I remember when I first looked at there brochers they had some superb professional shots in them. A couple of years ago they sent me an email asking for clients photos that would be credited, sure enough there brocher is now full of amature holiday snaps instead, most of which look terrible even printed small.

The last Exodus tour I took had one of there employees on it(not working) taking pics for potential use with a compact and seemed to be saying this was company policey with staff getting a 1 day training course to prep them. To be fair them though though some of their brouchers recently have gone the other direction with the focus on great page sized pro wildlife shots.
 
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It wants stamping out:bat: weather amateur or professional copyright should be protected.If someone wants a photo they should pay, even if it is a small amount.I have always been paid for my published photos.The very first one was with an Ian Allan publications in 1974 they had the decency to send me a cheque for a few quid without me even asking. Most of publications I deal with now it's the usual "I thought it was free,I will give you a credit on the photo" so I give them the usual "credits won't pay the gas bill",don't bother with the credit just pay me". Mostly they do.You only have to ask.:thumbs:
 
I had a request from a Souther issue paper via Johnson Press, I sent in the invoice for the agreed amount and 3 or 4 weeks later got paid...About 4 months later I got paid again...I thought this a little starnge so I contacted them about it. The told me that they had used it a second time. Now hows that for honesty...There is no way in a month of Sundays that I would have know about the second usage.
 
Tugster said:
I had a request from a Souther issue paper via Johnson Press, I sent in the invoice for the agreed amount and 3 or 4 weeks later got paid...About 4 months later I got paid again...I thought this a little starnge so I contacted them about it. The told me that they had used it a second time. Now hows that for honesty...There is no way in a month of Sundays that I would have know about the second usage.
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This is what I was getting at, I didn't want a payment but they said they would credit me if the were used. There is no way I would know as they are in Malta. The morals and honesty are still alive and kicking, just not so much over here ;)
 
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