Paying for photography tuition

scottduffy said:
I have been asked many times to take portraits or wedding photos and I've always said no. I firmly believe there is a market out there and I think that what puts some people off photographers is that some (no offence to those who are not) believe that they are somehow some kind of genius or artist instead of just someone who has learned to get good results from a camera. I'm sure there are a genius or two out there but your average photographer isn't one of them. Two of the guys I spoke with in north Lanarkshire about our wedding photos made my skin crawl. Honestly I have worked in customer service and public relations most of my life and being some sort of elton john in the middle of a hissy fit with a camera is not a good look. I couldn't get away quick enough. From what I can see businesses are successful when they offer good products at reasonable prices and have their name out there to be found by the public. I'm not saying it will be easy but if my product is up to par then it'll be a hell of a lot easier as I believe I have the people skills to promote it.
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What, I think, is puzzling us is, if you are that competent with your camera that you are getting requests for portraits and weddings, why is it you are asking for help with the very basics of photography? Surely you are well enough versed with your gear to be able to get good results without having to have your hand held at this stage. You have to be totally confident in your ability, and your imagination - that is where much of the skill lies - to be able to come up with WOW goods every time. For people to keep coming back, you need to be able to pull rabbits out of the hat each and every time - regardless of the conditions. What are you going to do with a wedding when, on the day, your planned shots are ut of the window because it is howling a gale and torrential rain? The couple and their parents will still expect you to come up with an album that is far and away better than what the guests get with their cameras......that is what they are paying you for.

I just cannot square your initial request with what you are now telling us. Remember, once you consider yourself a professional the expectation heaped upon you by clients is greater than they put on 'Uncle Joe' who is a keen camera club member and turns out some pretty decent pictures (but under controlled circumstances and with no pressure on the day). Remember, you are only as good as your last job.....
 
Lensflare said:
What, I think, is puzzling us is, if you are that competent with your camera that you are getting requests for portraits and weddings, why is it you are asking for help with the very basics of photography? Surely you are well enough versed with your gear to be able to get good results without having to have your hand held at this stage. You have to be totally confident in your ability, and your imagination - that is where much of the skill lies - to be able to come up with WOW goods every time. For people to keep coming back, you need to be able to pull rabbits out of the hat each and every time - regardless of the conditions. What are you going to do with a wedding when, on the day, your planned shots are ut of the window because it is howling a gale and torrential rain? The couple and their parents will still expect you to come up with an album that is far and away better than what the guests get with their cameras......that is what they are paying you for.

I just cannot square your initial request with what you are now telling us. Remember, once you consider yourself a professional the expectation heaped upon you by clients is greater than they put on 'Uncle Joe' who is a keen camera club member and turns out some pretty decent pictures (but under controlled circumstances and with no pressure on the day). Remember, you are only as good as your last job.....
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I'm not saying i know nothing about photography because i do i just believe that to charge someone money i would have to be way better than i am and also more confident that as you say i could get results from a variety of situations and at this moment i don't have the confidence in my ability. If i planned a wedding as you said and scoped out the venue and planned for a sunny day and started to shoot then it started raining and we were forced indoors then i don't think that quickly enough i could change plan because i'd be worried about things that guys with experience wouldn't be like the different lighting indoors etc. These are things i need to know in my head and that's why i wanted to spend time with someone learning from them. I believe i'll learn these things through my course but still believe one to one tuition would be better.

I have a set of portraits of my son that i love BUT we were indoors with a large window and my son was underexposed slightly, the sky was blown a bit in one too but i still love them. I wouldn't be happy though selling them to someone as i would expect them to be better. I have little experience with editing or no doubt i could have fixed them but i'd still have preferred to expose the shots properly and i just didn't know how in the few minutes i had him where i wanted him.
 
scottduffy said:
If i planned a wedding as you said and scoped out the venue and planned for a sunny day and started to shoot then it started raining and we were forced indoors then i don't think that quickly enough i could change plan because i'd be worried about things that guys with experience wouldn't be like the different lighting indoors etc. These are things i need to know in my head and that's why i wanted to spend time with someone learning from them. I believe i'll learn these things through my course ...
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I don't believe that you will. I honestly cannot see how studying for an HND in photography would be to your advantage when it comes to shooting weddings. Portraits maybe, but not weddings.
 
The technical side of photography can be learned - you don't need to be taught.

The artistic side cannot, it has to be FOUND WITHIN YOU - imagination, thinking laterally, borrowing techniques from other genres and trying to apply them to another.....experimentation. That is what sets the successful apart from the fails or also rans.

Anyway, it is your money, enjoy your course. I wonder why there are so many 'photographers' having to prey on the aspirations of others by offering courses on how to be a succssful photographer, instead of actually practising what they preach....if they were that good, they would be successful photgraphers, and not hoodwinking people into believing they need their course. Some were good photographers, but they realised there was more money in the lecture side of things.......
 
Lensflare said:
... I wonder why there are so many 'photographers' having to prey on the aspirations of others by offering courses on how to be a succssful photographer, instead of actually practising what they preach....if they were that good, they would be successful photgraphers, and not hoodwinking people into believing they need their course. Some were good photographers, but they realised there was more money in the lecture side of things.......
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:agree: Either more money in it, or the old ego needs a boost ...
 
Serendipitous Sid said:
I don't believe that you will. I honestly cannot see how studying for an HND in photography would be to your advantage when it comes to shooting weddings. Portraits maybe, but not weddings.
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Hi Dan,

Just simply time with a camera mate. Two years of practice cannot be a bad thing surely. I couldn't afford to do this for a sustained period of time without the course as obviously i'm still bringing in money whilst studying. Anyway i'm hopeful. If any of you know someone though in the Lanarkshire area who would be willing to "teach me" for two of three months then feel free to let me know. I am willing to pay.


Thanks for all your replies. I will take all your advice on board and let you guys know how it goes.


Regards

Scott
 
scottduffy said:
I'm not saying i know nothing about photography because i do i just believe that to charge someone money i would have to be way better than i am and also more confident that as you say i could get results from a variety of situations and at this moment i don't have the confidence in my ability. If i planned a wedding as you said and scoped out the venue and planned for a sunny day and started to shoot then it started raining and we were forced indoors then i don't think that quickly enough i could change plan because i'd be worried about things that guys with experience wouldn't be like the different lighting indoors etc. These are things i need to know in my head and that's why i wanted to spend time with someone learning from them. I believe i'll learn these things through my course but still believe one to one tuition would be better.

I have a set of portraits of my son that i love BUT we were indoors with a large window and my son was underexposed slightly, the sky was blown a bit in one too but i still love them. I wouldn't be happy though selling them to someone as i would expect them to be better. I have little experience with editing or no doubt i could have fixed them but i'd still have preferred to expose the shots properly and i just didn't know how in the few minutes i had him where i wanted him.
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TBH don't even think about going full time into photography if that is your level of skill and competency.

If you have a son of 4 years you should, by now, be fully competent in getting excellent pics of him and have loads of pics of him - and also be well skilled in assessing any situation as regards exposure etc.

And well skilled in PP.

I have literally thousands of photos of the children in my family, a great many of which if I had taken them of other people's children, would be highly saleable.

But try photographing 2 children together or 3 or 4 - if you can cope with that and produce saleable photos then then you may have a chance.

But I am not a pro photographer any longer because I know the pitfalls of running any business.

And, btw, you can't PLAN a wedding because of all the things that can, and will, go wrong!

And pouring rain is only ONE of the things - I've had weddings where the 2 families hated each other - one where the groom and best man turned up battered to f**k because they got drunk at the stag party and started a fight with a bunch of thugs - one where the bride's mother only turned up to scream at the groom who had got her daughter pregnant - one where the bride didn't turn up at all having run off with the best man etc etc.

When I first started if I didn't have any weddings booked I would head off to the local registry office with my camera and flashgun and find couples who hadn't booked a photographer and offer my services - could you do that - you need to have that kind of pushy confidence to succeed in ANY business!
 
The first thing you need to do is SEPERATE your photography from the business.

You go to work to make money.
You go to the pub to make friends. NO MATES RATES, business is business, friendship is friendship, OUTSIDE OF BUSINESS - if they are really that good a friend, they will want to see you succeed and not try to take the food out of your mouth. It is a hard nosed approach, but you must apply it equally across EVERY job. Otherwise you will simply be giving YOUR money away.

Discounts - I have seen every trick in the book. They'll give you loads more work etc....fine, then pay full price for this job and you'll provide a discount to the future work. See how many suddenly lose interest. the truth is, they were just testing you and trying to drive your price down...how would THEY like to take a pay cut for every job or day they work? Too many photographers don't fail because they can't take a picture, they fail because THEY CAN'T GET PAID, not properly anyway.
 
Excellent advice Simon thanks.

Peter - I will only take steps into business IF i get my photography to level where i have no qualms about charging people for my work AND i would be happy to pay for the product myself. I just want to immerse myself in photography for the next 2 years or so to see if it works out. If not i will head down another route.

For the record weddings were discussed in this thread as the subject was brought up by myself or others. I actually said in the second or third post that Portraiture and Pet Portraiture was the area i was hoping to specialize in. I just thought i could learn loads from someone who specialised in portraiture or weddings hence the reason i was hoping to pay for tuition.

Thanks again though for the advice.
 
You also have to consider how much you are going to charge in order to make a living and the entire set up of any business.

Last year a friend of mine had some studio portraits taken of his family including 2 young children.

They were there for a few hours and the cost was £800 including all the pics taken and the edited pictures and a CD with them on.

The pictures were good but no different to many other studio portraits and groups I have seen on here - white background, good lighting, sharp clear pictures but nothing exceptional, photographically speaking.

In fact any reasonably competent photographer could get the same result with ease - and with lighting and white backdrop.

So why £800 for the session?

Mainly because of all the back costs, studio, cameras, lights, electricity - and not to mention the wages of the staff.

Before you start ANY business you MUST have a fully researched REALISTIC business plan - without that no matter how good you think you are - YOU WILL FAIL!
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Very few photography businesses really are businesses, or at least not within my definition of the term.
I define a business as something that can
1. Be expanded
2. Make money
3. Survive the loss of the founder
Most photographers are in fact just operating a "lifestyle business" - it has more to do with their choice of how they earn their living than with actually running a business, there is extremely limited scope for any kind of real expansion, simply because the clients want to deal with an individual, not with a business, so they care which photographer will do their job. Therefore, the business doesn't have much room for expansion.
Most photographers don't make money, they earn money. The difference is clear - if you're selling left handed widgets via e-commerce, you may sell one a week or 1000 a day, and if it builds up to 1000 a day then you can make real money. How many portrait sessions, or weddings, can you do in a day?
The "business" will be worth nothing when you want to sell it, because even if its highly successful, it's you that your clients want, not your successor.

The people who have actually had a real business model and who have run photography as a real business are business people, such as Venture, and not photographers. When they were a successful business they offered what was, in effect, a single product, and they de-skilled it to the point that pretty well everyone could produce their quality of work, provided that they had a studio that was big enough - and big enough was their entry barrier, because people who tried to compete with them by shooting in their garage simply couldn't make it work. It was a sales operation, with far more being spent on both sales and marketing than on the actual photography. Most photographers are NOT business people, and even if they are capable of producing top class work, all that they can realistically do is to earn a living.

So, I echo what others have said. Don't worry too much about technical skills, or at least don't worry if all that you want to photograph are members of the public, they won't care and won't even be able to see the difference between a highly skilled craftsman and someone who just understands the basics.
If you love photography, do it as a hobby and do somethng else to provide for your family
Put your family first, it's far more important than money.

Of course, you may not agree with me but...
I HAVE made a lot of money from photography
I HAVE run a successful business
I DO have higher education and all the qualifications
I HAVE put money before family
 
Thanks Garry. With your definition it's definitely a living I'm after rather than a business as such. I earn a living just now I just don't enjoy it. I have ties to dancing clubs, football clubs etc so I have a core client base I simply want to make sure that I am good enough to provide good quality photos. I don't put anything before my family which is the main reason my photography hasn't improved. I put all my spare time into them and they know this. I will be more than happy if I need to put in the same 35 + hours at photography and make enough to get by. It might never work out but I can always supplement it with office work when required.


Peter - I always research anything mate and I actually enjoy it. I will do my homework and hopefully it'll pay off.
 
scottduffy said:
I have been asked many times to take portraits or wedding photos and I've always said no. I firmly believe there is a market out there it.
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but would any of those people have been prepared to pay a decent rate for their coverage - i would guessfrom the fact that they were asking a non pro the answer is no - thus while there may well be lots of people who'd like the work done free or very cheap they arent a sensible measure of what the market of actualpaying customers is like in your area
 
donut said:
i drive a truck ,,,never had diesel nicked parking is paid ,,i get about 26 - 28 k before stops a year for ( an average 48 hour week ) im out all week ,monday to friday and for that i get an extra £100 a week tax free .its not a bad job ,,,but not for you if you want to spend time with family .
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But how long have you been driving? do you honestly believe you would get your job if you were green and just passed your test or do you think that only a few of the smaller hauliers who operate on a shoestring would be the ones who might entertain a newbie with their truck and trailer driving a rig that's done nearly 1,000,000 km which is where I started and yes I live in devon and because all 3 of the large local hauliers have a meeting every year to fix wage prices unless I want to move from down here its their way or no way. But of course you may be lucky and land something better I was painting a likely scenario
 
Bazzle said:
But how long have you been driving? do you honestly believe you would get your job if you were green and just passed your test or do you think that only a few of the smaller hauliers who operate on a shoestring would be the ones who might entertain a newbie with their truck and trailer driving a rig that's done nearly 1,000,000 km which is where I started and yes I live in devon and because all 3 of the large local hauliers have a meeting every year to fix wage prices unless I want to move from down here its their way or no way. But of course you may be lucky and land something better I was painting a likely scenario
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Good old Gregory's hey....
 
Bazzle said:
But how long have you been driving? do you honestly believe you would get your job if you were green and just passed your test or do you think that only a few of the smaller hauliers who operate on a shoestring would be the ones who might entertain a newbie with their truck and trailer driving a rig that's done nearly 1,000,000 km which is where I started and yes I live in devon and because all 3 of the large local hauliers have a meeting every year to fix wage prices unless I want to move from down here its their way or no way. But of course you may be lucky and land something better I was painting a likely scenario
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calm down, calm down. i was just giving an insight into my driving job.i started driving in 1986.well i would have said no , i wouldnt expect to just walk straight into a driving job green,,but these days i think more transport firms are willing to give new drivers a chance because of the shortage od drivers .
 
Bazzle said:
But how long have you been driving? do you honestly believe you would get your job if you were green and just passed your test or do you think that only a few of the smaller hauliers who operate on a shoestring would be the ones who might entertain a newbie with their truck and trailer driving a rig that's done nearly 1,000,000 km which is where I started and yes I live in devon and because all 3 of the large local hauliers have a meeting every year to fix wage prices unless I want to move from down here its their way or no way. But of course you may be lucky and land something better I was painting a likely scenario
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I have the job offer for driving mate. My brother in law is fleet manager at a huge car dealership and it's him who wants me driving transporters. The other one is the actual HGV driver who has told me he could get me a job beside him if i go down that route. I just want to give photography a go before it's too late.
 
Back to the original subject.. A number of one woman/man band photographers near me offer both tuition in the form of short courses and on-going mentoring & business development advice. Some will only do it for folk outside their patch so they're not generating their own competition.

Googling 'photography tuition coatbridge' brings up lots of options as does 'wedding photography tuition lanarkshire'
 
Call me a cynic, but in my experience many of these people should be attending courses, not offering them. Quite often, it's a case of the blind misleading the blind, or sheep masquerading as sheepdogs.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Call me a cynic, but in my experience many of these people should be attending courses, not offering them. Quite often, it's a case of the blind misleading the blind, or sheep masquerading as sheepdogs.
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Same as purchasing any service.. there's good and bad out there. Choosing requires research, caution and a little bit of luck.
 
Thanks Simon. I'll have a look and let you know how I get on. I tried here first as I could get an idea of what the person was like before I contacted them based on their work, posts etc.
 
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