Paying for photography tuition

scottduffy

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Guys i was looking to bounce some ideas of you. I am currently going through a voluntary redundancy process. I was thinking of sitting my HGV license with some of the money or going to college to complete an HND in Photography. A friend of mine who is quite new to photography has suggested paying a photographer to take me under their wing for say 2 or 3 months and tutoring me in return for me paying them and obviously being their second shooter/helper when /if required.

Do you think someone would be interested in this? I believe i would learn heaps from being on the job so to speak and being shown in real life situations exposure/shutter speed/aperture etc.

I cannot say i ever gave this any though but i was looking for a bit of advice from you guys as to whether

A. You think a photographer would be interested
B. You think it would be a worthwhile exercise


Thanks in advance.

Regards

Scott
 
I think you would need to add what area/type of photography you are looking to do... and what area you are in.. at least what country ? :)
 
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Haha i wasn't touting for a tutor just yet. I was just wondering if this was something photographers might consider and what benefits/drawbacks this would have versus going to college. Is it something you would consider? Not with me just in general?

For the record it's portraiture i'm into and i live in Coatbridge in Scotland so could travel around the Lanarkshire area or maybe a bit further afield.

I would also like to photograph pets as i'm an animal lover and really enjoy attending dog shows etc.
 
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Haha i wasn't touting for a tutor just yet. I was just wondering if this was something photographers might consider and what benefits/drawbacks this would have versus going to college. Is it something you would consider? Not with me just in general?

For the record it's portraiture i'm into and i live in Coatbridge in Scotland so could travel around the Lanarkshire area or maybe a bit further afield.


It was the type of photography more important,. for example to do my job I would argue a HND pretty useless and yes one to one tutorial would be more help..I have been approached many times mostly by students.. for my area going to jobs for a newspaper or under licence at sporting events its not really possible.. I think type of photogrpahy is something thats important for people to answer your question..

My brother took up photogrpahy.. within a week he was shooting manual and understood the effect the 3 variables iso, shutter and aperture had.... less than a week to know what took me months and months learning on my own ( pre decent forums like this)
 
In principle it's a good idea and worth a go - almost like an old fashioned apprenticeship. My only reservations would be:

1) how would you know that your chosen photographer would be a good instructor?
2) in a crowded marketplace, you may struggle to find a photographer who would be interested in training up a potential competitor?
3) if it's portraiture you're interested in, why not find a weekend or week long workshop to learn the photographic side, and do a college course for something business / marketing related.

Might be worth asking in the Talk Business forum
 
I was thinking of sitting my HGV license with some of the money or going to college to complete an HND in Photography.

I'd go for the HGV licence. Or retrain as a plumber like a former pro-photographer friend of mine did - he's never been happier, or as well off! :D
 
A. You think a photographer would be interested
B. You think it would be a worthwhile exercise


In answer to those 2 questions:

A - no

B - for you, probably - although you'd only really be gaining the views & methods of one portrait tog and there are many styles and many ways of working, I doubt it'd be anything like enough for you to base a career decision upon; for the tog though - no

Dave
 
In principle it's a good idea and worth a go - almost like an old fashioned apprenticeship. My only reservations would be:

1) how would you know that your chosen photographer would be a good instructor?
2) in a crowded marketplace, you may struggle to find a photographer who would be interested in training up a potential competitor?
3) if it's portraiture you're interested in, why not find a weekend or week long workshop to learn the photographic side, and do a college course for something business / marketing related.

Might be worth asking in the Talk Business forum

Thanks for this.

1) You're right in that i wouldn't know whether the person was a good teacher/tutor although the same could be said for any college course.
2) This was the point i thought of first. I wasn't sure at all whether someone would take the time to do this knowing the only thing they were getting out of was money and that they might be giving them self a competitor.
3) I've looked for some time for workshops and just thought that a weekend or so with up to 10-20 others might not give me the time to ask questions and learn what i am looking to learn.

I'll maybe post in the Talk Business section later.

Thanks again for your reply.
 
I'd go for the HGV licence. Or retrain as a plumber like a former pro-photographer friend of mine did - he's never been happier, or as well off! :D

I could always do both and have driving to fall back on. 3 years or so as an apprentice doesn't appeal though !!
 
In answer to those 2 questions:

A - no

B - for you, probably - although you'd only really be gaining the views & methods of one portrait tog and there are many styles and many ways of working, I doubt it'd be anything like enough for you to base a career decision upon; for the tog though - no

Dave

Cheers Dave. I had thought maybe they'd have some downtime and want to earn a bit on the side by doing what they love doing which is explaining their who career to a stranger !!! Only joking a mean taking photos.
 
I could always do both and have driving to fall back on.

(y)

As has been said many times before, you don't have to be technically brilliant at something like photography to make a go of it. It can be the other skills that can make or break a business - promotional skills, people skills, etc.
 
I would be more than willing to have a go at the business end of it and have plenty of friends who are in business and could offer advice and assistance. I would just like to be good at the product i'm selling first. I'll have a look at some training courses around to see if they're what i'm looking for.

Regards

Scott
 
Just curious if being an HGV driver is a way to earn good money any more..?
The only one I know really struggled with being pushed to do more and more within the limits of his tacho, so giving no time for family life, and he only earned anything vaguely decent (his words, so I don't know what sort of amount) if he slept in his truck 6 nights a week, as often he couldn't get home for his day off. He painted a fairly gloomy picture of what he used to love..
 
Guys i was looking to bounce some ideas of you. I am currently going through a voluntary redundancy process. I was thinking of sitting my HGV license with some of the money or going to college to complete an HND in Photography. A friend of mine who is quite new to photography has suggested paying a photographer to take me under their wing for say 2 or 3 months and tutoring me in return for me paying them and obviously being their second shooter/helper when /if required.

Do you think someone would be interested in this? I believe i would learn heaps from being on the job so to speak and being shown in real life situations exposure/shutter speed/aperture etc.

I cannot say i ever gave this any though but i was looking for a bit of advice from you guys as to whether

A. You think a photographer would be interested
B. You think it would be a worthwhile exercise


Thanks in advance.

Regards

Scott


I'm betting that most probably wouldn't be interested. I couldn't, in good faith, put you infant of my clients knowing you were paying me for training. However, whilst I've never looked at the details I have seen similar arrangements to what you describe advertised in the past
 
I would be more than willing to have a go at the business end of it and have plenty of friends who are in business and could offer advice and assistance. I would just like to be good at the product i'm selling first. I'll have a look at some training courses around to see if they're what i'm looking for.

Regards

Scott
I am concerned that you think the training you need is 'settings'.

I might sound like a broken record, but if that's what you need help with, then you're a long way off being ready to run a portrait business. 'Settings' is not what any of it is about, settings is what newbies think photography is about, the technical stuff is easy, it's so easy it has to be 2nd nature. It's like suggesting you're planning to run a taxi business but needing to learn what gear to use to go round a corner.
 
Just curious if being an HGV driver is a way to earn good money any more..?
The only one I know really struggled with being pushed to do more and more within the limits of his tacho, so giving no time for family life, and he only earned anything vaguely decent (his words, so I don't know what sort of amount) if he slept in his truck 6 nights a week, as often he couldn't get home for his day off. He painted a fairly gloomy picture of what he used to love..


I spoke to a guy like that who also told me how the police the traffic police, customs the dvsa who stop and do spot check .. there all a pain... as well as all the above you mentioned..

how long have you been doing it I asked

30 years he said..

how sad i thought ..
 
I am concerned that you think the training you need is 'settings'.

I might sound like a broken record, but if that's what you need help with, then you're a long way off being ready to run a portrait business. 'Settings' is not what any of it is about, settings is what newbies think photography is about, the technical stuff is easy, it's so easy it has to be 2nd nature. It's like suggesting you're planning to run a taxi business but needing to learn what gear to use to go round a corner.

I can`t see anything about settings, seLLing?
 
I am concerned that you think the training you need is 'settings'.

I might sound like a broken record, but if that's what you need help with, then you're a long way off being ready to run a portrait business. 'Settings' is not what any of it is about, settings is what newbies think photography is about, the technical stuff is easy, it's so easy it has to be 2nd nature. It's like suggesting you're planning to run a taxi business but needing to learn what gear to use to go round a corner.

Hi Phil,

I am assuming that improving my understanding of the nuts and bolts of photography will improve my end product. There are many parts i would like to improve on so i'm not under any illusions that this is something that would be easy. I just think that improving my photography would be the first step. That's why i was hoping for some training. The college course i looked at seemed very good and lecturers i spoke with were very complimentary after speaking to me and seeing my portfolio but i was just wondering if there was another route as three years is a long time when you're in your late 30's as i am.

I think actually i am going to sit some kind of plant vehicle license and go to college too then i'll have the driving to fall back should the college course not go to planned. I assumed there would be a wealth of training for photography and sadly having looked online it's not the case at all. I don't fancy speanding hundreds of pounds for a weekend with a dozen others when i don't think for a minute that's enough time to ask the questions i foresee arising. That's why i was thinking of paying for 1 on 1 tuition.


Regards

Scott
 
Just curious if being an HGV driver is a way to earn good money any more..?
The only one I know really struggled with being pushed to do more and more within the limits of his tacho, so giving no time for family life, and he only earned anything vaguely decent (his words, so I don't know what sort of amount) if he slept in his truck 6 nights a week, as often he couldn't get home for his day off. He painted a fairly gloomy picture of what he used to love..

I thought i'd replied to this so apologies for the late reply. I have a brother in law who earns very good money driving HGV's and it was him who suggested i get on board. Also i have another brother in law who is the fleet manager of a large motor dealer and it was this one who is pushing me toward the car transport business so i have faith that what these two are offering would be more than enough for my needs. I actually have enough money just now and both of these are a step up. When you don't fritter away loads like me you don't need too much. Just enough for a couple of holidays a year and to pay the bills.
 
Hi Phil,

I am assuming that improving my understanding of the nuts and bolts of photography will improve my end product. There are many parts i would like to improve on so i'm not under any illusions that this is something that would be easy. I just think that improving my photography would be the first step. That's why i was hoping for some training. The college course i looked at seemed very good and lecturers i spoke with were very complimentary after speaking to me and seeing my portfolio but i was just wondering if there was another route as three years is a long time when you're in your late 30's as i am.

I think actually i am going to sit some kind of plant vehicle license and go to college too then i'll have the driving to fall back should the college course not go to planned. I assumed there would be a wealth of training for photography and sadly having looked online it's not the case at all. I don't fancy speanding hundreds of pounds for a weekend with a dozen others when i don't think for a minute that's enough time to ask the questions i foresee arising. That's why i was thinking of paying for 1 on 1 tuition.


Regards

Scott
You're right that better photography = better results (y). But you're wrong to assume camera craft is a large part of 'better photography' (which was my original point and you should let it sink in*).

You're also correct to think that 1-1 tuition is better than group tuition (y). But 1-1 tuition is usually aimed at improving the important things that are difficult to learn by yourself; like customer relationships, marketing, efficient PP workflow, posing workflow etc -

*Camera settings are easy to learn yourself - and if you're not confidant with that it rings alarm bells to me. That's where my bluntness comes from. If you appeared confidant in your understanding and ability to learn, I wouldn't have piped up with the negative.
 
These are the market leaders - have a look at their course contents.
The only course that mentions camera settings is the 'getting started' course - not aimed at pro's at all. They do 1-1 training - you should chat to them about what they cover and how.
 
Cheers Phil. The main problem i've had so far is time. I have a full time job and a young son and when it comes to playing with the camera or playing with him there's only one winner. Now that my redundancy is going through i won't have a full time job so i will more time to learn about photography. I know how to set up studio lights for simple portraits and i know which settings to use in a variety of situations but when i get it wrong (and i often do) i know nothing about editing so that's another area i would need to learn but firstly i would like to try and get it right in camera so to speak.

I'll have a look at your link and take it from there but having made a call yesterday to the lecturer and spoke at length about the merits of the course. He is obviously biased but made some very good points about being put on placement and learning different parts of photography and the job opportunities that those skills might open up. I have decided that i am going to attend the course and see what happens from there.
 
Cheers Phil. The main problem i've had so far is time. I have a full time job and a young son and when it comes to playing with the camera or playing with him there's only one winner. Now that my redundancy is going through i won't have a full time job so i will more time to learn about photography. I know how to set up studio lights for simple portraits and i know which settings to use in a variety of situations but when i get it wrong (and i often do) i know nothing about editing so that's another area i would need to learn but firstly i would like to try and get it right in camera so to speak.

I'll have a look at your link and take it from there but having made a call yesterday to the lecturer and spoke at length about the merits of the course. He is obviously biased but made some very good points about being put on placement and learning different parts of photography and the job opportunities that those skills might open up. I have decided that i am going to attend the course and see what happens from there.
Good luck, I hope it turns out for you.

Personally, in your shoes, I'd choose plumbing.
 
Dirty water is not my forte. Either driving or photography.
 
Personally, in your shoes, I'd choose plumbing.

Or Gas Fitting, or Electrics ... something where theres a more or less guaranteed return on your money anyway , the thing about photography is that if you are already good at it, you don't need the training , and if you arent the training won't get you to where you need to be to support your family.

Personally I do photography as a weekend warrior because i enjoy it - I'm also a qualified arborist and tree surgeon (which i don't want to do in my spare time as its too close to my day job) , if I didnt have the day job anymore i'd be doing the arb consulting and tree surgery as my main income because the market is much more guaranteed than photography... if you see what i'm saying
 
It's not even as much the training as the time spent with the camera that i believe will bring me on. As i said further up i really have struggled to pick up the camera outside of work because i want to spend the spare time i have with my son. I will have plenty of time during the working week so to speak to brush up and improve my photography so that i can still spend my spare time with Evan. I can also go back to working in an office if i find it's not paying the bills.
 
It's not even as much the training as the time spent with the camera that i believe will bring me on. As i said further up i really have struggled to pick up the camera outside of work because i want to spend the spare time i have with my son. I will have plenty of time during the working week so to speak to brush up and improve my photography so that i can still spend my spare time with Evan. I can also go back to working in an office if i find it's not paying the bills.

Word of warning on that - when self employed if it takes off you will have less - a lot less - spare time than an employed person (you will also no longer have paid holiday/sick etc) ... whilst self employment is often touted as offering greater time flexibility because you don't answer to a 'boss' , the reality is that you have to work when the clients want you (unless you are a big name or have so much cash you can afford to pick and choose) .

Ive been full time self employed three times (twice with photography and once as an arborist)n and every time ive wound up going back to employment for stability of income and predictable hours.

If you are easily able to get office work (ie you arent thinking of retraining as a desperation measure so as not to be unemployed) my advice would be to do that may be part time or via an agency while you first build your photographic skills and then build your business , and to keep your redundancy money in the bank for a rainy day (or pay a big chunk off your mortgage if thast makes better ecomic sense)
 
Thanks for the advice mate. I'll have options in it,administration fields when I'm done so I'll probably end up doing that if the going gets tough. Thanks again mate.
 
This might interests you, but it is in Cambodia / Thailand. $5,000 for 3 months full time working under professional photographer

http://photographyschoolasia.com/long-term-photography-course/

As for me, I would rather have this than going to waste 2-3 years in College / University where you have 9k per year plus accomodation. You could throw away 30-45 k.

I'm looking at South Africa where the one2one tutor is around 15 quid an hour.
 
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I own my home mate and my student loan would be minimum. I will pay my own fees too but that's okay due to the redundancy payment I will be receiving. Training like that is very interesting but I have a 4 year old and I've spent 1 night apart from him so far so 90 of them just isn't going to happen. Thanks though.
 
I own my home mate and my student loan would be minimum. I will pay my own fees too but that's okay due to the redundancy payment I will be receiving. Training like that is very interesting but I have a 4 year old and I've spent 1 night apart from him so far so 90 of them just isn't going to happen. Thanks though.


I understand that you cannot leave more than 1 night apart from your 4 years old. :) About this course, I meant 6 weeks not 3 months lol
 
Right the bit I can comment on
There is a national shortage of hgv drivers who are willing to be " trampers" staying out all week driving here and there returning home on a Friday or Saturday and possibly leaving on a Sunday afternoon and there is good money to be made if you work it out though you're doing the hours 2 x 15 hour days and 3 x 11 hr days plus the hours on a weekend and soon your up to 50-60 hours a week so your £500 a week isn't quite as attractive and as most bosses don't want to pay for you to stay in nice safe services then having the diesel stolen from your tanks is a common occurrence as is having your cab broken into and you robbed as they have with some of the guys I've driven with.
So you look for a job driving a rigid where you will have plenty of competition due to people not wanting to be away from home all the time here you will have to compete against the polish boys who work hard and will accept peanuts in return.
Now the cost I've. Spent over £3500 pounds on tuition to achieve my desired job only to have my son hide behind his mums legs when I came home because he didn't know who I was. You will have to do your theory then your lgvC then take your lgvC+E which means you can tow a trailer then before you start work you will have to do your cpc "certificate of professional competence " and will have to do 35 hours every 5 years of classroom based learning to maintain your licence as with any medical you have to take.
Still sounding good the lovely romantic notion of being on the open road rushing to meet deadlines sat in traffic jams and generally being hated by car drivers who glower over there steering wheels as you have to reverse a 40ft trailer into a site so you can deliver the goods Being told by road signs that this lane is for that exit on the roundabout and having them perform the best re-enactment of the wacky races you will ever see as they under and over take you on the roundabout
But it's still a job I enjoy and I'm to old to do anything else so I'm stuck with my lot so think carefully before you go down this route.
 
i drive a truck ,,,never had diesel nicked parking is paid ,,i get about 26 - 28 k before stops a year for ( an average 48 hour week ) im out all week ,monday to friday and for that i get an extra £100 a week tax free .its not a bad job ,,,but not for you if you want to spend time with family .
 
My brother in law works from about 7-8 pm till around 5am Sunday to Thursday and earns close to 28k. That would suit me fine if I choose this route. My sons in bed before I leave and I'm in before he's up. Win win. Sleep during the day. He likes the job. I might too. The training course includes cps and is just shy of 3k. I'm going to give the photography course a go first though and I can always return to driving if it doesn't work out.
 
Buy a photography book - it will tell you all about the settings you need to know. In fact I can put it in a nutshell for you here and now - save you £3000. Buy me a beer.

A 'correct' exposure is a bucket of water full to the brim, just. You can fill that bucket through a big tap for a shorter time (wide open aperture at fast shutter speed) or through a smaller tap (small aperture f8, f11, f16 etc over a longer period of time (slow shutter speed 1/4, 1/2, -1/60, 1/125 and 1/250) You don't HAVE to fill the bucket to the brim and letting water spill over is a waste of water and it runs down the drain never to be recovered (water is taking the place of light) - lost water is the same as lost highlights through too much exposure. It is ALWAYS better to underexpose, because you can recover the shadows.

Aperture - controls the depth of focus. Smallerer the number, biggerer the hole in the lens, less the depth of focus.
eg. f2 = large hole in lens, gives very limited / critical focus. Ensure eyes are focussed, f8.0, f11, f16....small hole in lens, more subject in focus eyes and nose can be rendered acceptably sharp. If you want to see this in practise with your own eyes - look at a object at about 6 feet away, clear of the wall behind (another 6 ft at least) You see yor object sharp, but the wall is fuzzy in your vision....now squint (close the aperture in your eyes) and watxch how everything becomes sharoer, BUT IT ALSO BECOMES DARKER - so if you 'squint' your lens by stopping it down, more comes sharp, but you have to leave the tap on for longer to brighten it up a bit.


The effect of this aperture relationship is also dependent upon two things: lens focal length, focussed distance. Long lens gives less depth of focus, (hence medium /short telephotos generally used for portraiture.
Wider angles provide greater depth of focus, even at close ranges. The closer the subject to the camera (regardless of focal length) the LESS depth of focus - the more critical the amount of subject is sharp. Background goes to mush.

Rule of thumb: Focus will be deeper behind the subject than in front...by a ratio of from focussed distance to 1/3 in front, 2/3rds behind. This si true at all distances and f numbers. The RELATIONSHIP stays the same, only the AMOUNT changes with lens choice, and f-stop choice and subject distance.

Aperture controls FLASH - not the shutter speed, provided it is synchronised. You set your lights for the chosen aperture. It will work with all synchronised shutter speeds.

Shutter speed - controls the ambient light entering the camera. It also has an effect on the rending of blurr for motion, or stopping motion dead through the use of high speed exposure (can also be done by speed of flash, but the amount of flash needed will controlled by the aperture and the power available as above.

FAST shutter speed - 1/500 and shorter duration (1/1000, 1/2000 etc) freezes motion, doesn't leave long to allow light through the lens.
SLOW shutter speed 1/15, 1/30 - 1/125 will not stop motion to the same extent or will even allow some blur to occur - moving hands for instance, dogs legs when running.....the feet will disappear and look like they have been amputated.

ISO - gives you the amount of light capture to use bigger f-numbers or faster shutter speeds. RULE OF THUMB (rapidly being thrown out by modern camera ability) lower the number, greater the quality. So in the olden days, when I used to have to kill a sabre toothed tiger before going out to take photographs...we had Kodachrom at ISO 64 or Fuji Velvia at ISO 50 (no, not 640 or 500, but double digits only). The standard portrait film speed was 160, except Fuji worked on solid numbers of 100, 200 and 400 (800 hadn't been invented yet, not for colour) LUXURY was having 160 to work with. You had bigger cameras with lenses the size of a drainpipe to work with too.....so we had big, heavy cameras with cumbersome lenses and no autofocus and slow speed film....it was a wonder anyone ever got a picture really wasn't it.

Choose your ISO according to the amount of light available, whether that is your own light in a box (flash) or natural light given to you by nature....

When mixing natural light with flash - natural light is controlled by the shutter speed. Flash light is controlled by the aperture - so effectively, you can turn the sun off by using a fast enough shutter speed (rendering the natural light under exposed - but provided your flash output matches your aperture the subject hit by the flash will be 'properly' exposed.

That is settings covered...how much were you going to pay a smudger for that As I said, buy me a beer. If you really didn't understand that - DO NOT THINK OF TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING FROM PHOTOGRAPHY.
 
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All I'll add is this...
If that course won't teach you what is a marketable image, and how to market that image, it's no use to you to run a business.

You can learn all you need about 'photography' in a month, the tricky stuff, takes longer and is less readily taught.
 
Another thought for you to consider:

With all the capable photographers out there, trying to gain clients.......what makes you think the buyers of photography will come flocking to your door? What is going to set you apart from every other camera totting for business?

If you don't think you'll have people beating a path to your door, or say you don't expect to have people banging on your door morning noon and night...you won't have a business, only a dream

Dreams are good. If you don't have a dream, you can't have it come true. As a quotation attrributed to Goethe goes:
“Whatever you can do or dream you can do, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it!”
 
I have been asked many times to take portraits or wedding photos and I've always said no. I firmly believe there is a market out there and I think that what puts some people off photographers is that some (no offence to those who are not) believe that they are somehow some kind of genius or artist instead of just someone who has learned to get good results from a camera. I'm sure there are a genius or two out there but your average photographer isn't one of them. Two of the guys I spoke with in north Lanarkshire about our wedding photos made my skin crawl. Honestly I have worked in customer service and public relations most of my life and being some sort of elton john in the middle of a hissy fit with a camera is not a good look. I couldn't get away quick enough. From what I can see businesses are successful when they offer good products at reasonable prices and have their name out there to be found by the public. I'm not saying it will be easy but if my product is up to par then it'll be a hell of a lot easier as I believe I have the people skills to promote it.
 
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