Paul C. Buff products coming to the UK....

Ding76UK. ...are you sure what you are writing??

There is no such company like "Paul C Buff - EU" you just got a version of PCB website for EU customers!

Colin is simply reseller, middleman... call it like you want. But it is different company registered in UK probably on Colins brother Steven Smith.
It is similar model like with Swiss guys...

ding76uk said:
Yes through resellers,
Click to expand...

So... I assume you agreed?


Here is a note from Paul Buff:

Seems like some here don't understand that exchange rate has nothing to do with the actual cost. If a country has a low "dollar" that means they make more of them per hour (with all other factors ignored).

Real cost difference is a function of shipping costs and methods, duties, taxes and dealer markups. Since there are no dealer markups or national sales tax in the USA, and since we have no dealers or middlemen in the USA, and ship by low cost ground methods, of course the US real price is going to be lower than when we have to go through a middleman. Colin doesn't make a huge profit on PCB equipment because he doesn't get much of a discount . . . because dealer discounts are not built into our business model like they are with conventional business models. If they were, the USA price would be 30% higher or more and you would get the customer service we can provide. At least we only go through one added profit center in UK and OZ, unlike most companies with two or three middlemen in the distribution chain.
-Paul Buff

Cheers
Jaroslav
 
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I stand corrected and apologie Mothman.

The way it is set up leads you to believe this is Buff direct rather than a reseller.

Alien Bees are still pricing in very competitive territory, and they may lose out.

In terms of cost if you were looking for 2 heads, 2 softboxes, trigger system, you are putting Bees in the same price range as the Elinchrom BXRi, which is a much more respected/higher quality brand over here. I know which I would choose.

Vagabond again has a competitor in the TRONIX EXPLORER XT (complete with worldwide postage of $45) so again, Paul C Buff product is not without very tough competition.

Again Elinchrom BXRi 500 head: USD=625
GBP=464

To me that shows Buff's business model is not very good in terms of expanding your product. With Buff saying they are one of the largest flash unit retailer in the USA, you would think he would handle expansion into other markets a little more carefully.
 
ding76uk said:
As for your shipping only a quote. £63 is a complete con. You will in no way pay anything near that kind of cash and your pathetic get out attempt at reducing price due to complaints then adding it back on with postage is despicable. There is no way your shipping would be above £20-£30 for a large order, yet you think quoting £63 is "paying only what you pay" you must think we are idiots.
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Firstly can I please get one thing straight this is not a con and we certainly are not treating our customers like idiots.

We would rather over quote someone and charge them less than have to ask someone for more after they have place their order.

The prices on the website will change, they have not changed because of complaints and they will go up and down with fluctuations that are outside of our control.

Your post was not constructive it just sounded bitter. There is not a lot I can do about that. PM me your telephone number and we can maybe discuss it further.

Colin.
 
Colin Smith said:
Shipping on the site is only a quote, you will pay what we pay, it its more we will contact you for approval to proceed.
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There is no way it can be more - but why would I take a change ordering hoping that the lower correct price will be charged.

Surely you need to either get the postage rates correct as do countless other internet businesses - or contact every customer with the correct amount BEFORE taking the money
 
ding76uk said:
In terms of cost if you were looking for 2 heads, 2 softboxes, trigger system, you are putting Bees in the same price range as the Elinchrom BXRi, which is a much more respected/higher quality brand over here. I know which I would choose.
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And you'll be paying 2-3 times the price for portable Elinchrom gear and their accessories.

Having heavily researched the options before making any investments, I speak from both a UK and EU perspective. There are clear advantages and benefits to PCB gear:

If your in the market for a portable (meaning location based), multiple head solution, then PCB has serious potential in the UK/EU market as no established brand offers anything within a similar price bracket.

ding76uk said:
Vagabond again has a competitor in the TRONIX EXPLORER XT (complete with worldwide postage of $45) so again, Paul C Buff product is not without very tough competition.
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I have an XT, I wouldn't say it's a competitor to the VII.

Primarily as there are no dealers in the UK that sell Innovatronix gear, so you'll have to import. Prices begin around 400€, average price is 469€ (£406).

If PCB spares and repairs are based in the UK along with the UK stock then the Tronix packs are not a competitor at all even if the postage is $45 to anywhere in the world.

Some may also consider that the VII has been specifically designed to provide power to PCB gear and something like the XT is a generic unit which has a compatibility chart that not all brands are listed on.

Colin Smith said:
Firstly can I please get one thing straight this is not a con and we certainly are not treating our customers like idiots.
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Hi Colin, thanks for stopping by :thumbs:

It's painfully obvious to me that the EU/UK venture is not a con and neither are you treating anyone like an idiot.

There are more than a few threads here based on the US to UK price differences, the inability to comprehend international price differences is nothing new.

Colin Smith said:
We would rather over quote someone and charge them less than have to ask someone for more after they have place their order.
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Yes but you must understand that the postage estimate is very, very high.
Even as an estimate and even for the likes of couriers such as TNT, Fedex, UPS and DHL offering their absolute top quality premium services, the estimates on the site are incredibly high.

I wish nothing but the very best and as I've said many times in this thread, I am grateful and very pleased with the new UK/EU distribution. I appreciate all the time, effort and work that Stephen, Paul and yourself are putting into this venture.

It's high time the EU and the UK had a chance to use PCB gear.

spxxxx said:
There is no way it can be more - but why would I take a change ordering hoping that the lower correct price will be charged.

Surely you need to either get the postage rates correct as do countless other internet businesses - or contact every customer with the correct amount BEFORE taking the money
Click to expand...

Simon has a very good point and I would really like to see this resolved.

Respectively, If you wish to disarm some of the negative response then it would be an idea to take note that most, if not all couriers in the UK/EU offer a flat fee based on speed of service, weight and insurance.

I understand that it is easier said than done when implementing this to your commerce system as the sizes, weights and shapes of the order may vary considerably, but...

My estimate in shipping 3 Einsteins and 2 VII's to Finland for example was nearly ten times the amount expected.

I have bought a lot of gear from the UK and Germany, used many of the available couriers and the estimate on Buff.eu was just not inline with any of them.

It is and will be a deterrent for anyone who does or doesn't recognise the usual carriage costs.

On the tech support forum, it was mentioned that TNT would be used for large or EU orders, and Royal mail for smaller and UK based orders.

It's more than possible to get accurate postage rates using these services.

Just avoid City Link like the Bubonic Plague!!!

As for the prices of the products - excellent IMO. I have absolutely no complaints and neither will anyone else who appreciates the advantages with PCB gear.
 
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Colin:

Any ideas on a time scale?

AB USA cant even fulfil orders and have a huge backlog for the Einstein in their home market, let alone us.
 
With regards to shipping, I am not sure if anyone is aware but freight companies such as TNT use a measurement called volumetric weight to charge for their service. What that means is they take the dimensions of a package and run a calculation on it to come up with a cost per kg for a shipment.

That is all well and good but it goes pear shaped when you have a softbox that is 2kg but is large dimensionally. we may then get charged for 20kg.

You then get a Vagabond which is 10kg comes in a smaller box and we get charged for 10kg.

This makes it very difficult to calculate shipping because there are so many variable associated with it.

So how do we do it? In Australia we found that using a percentage of the total order price is about the best way to do it, maybe not perfect but we have had 380 orders and I think we have it about right. Currently they are about 4% for Australian orders and about 20% for international orders + $10

For the UK we have not shipped anything yet, we have had rate cards from TNT but until we start shipping we are not going to be able to estimate it accurately. We have run tests and the calculations are approximately again 4% for UK orders and 15% for overseas orders. This will change once we start shipping to get a more accurate costing. Lets not forget the insurance associated with these shipments.

Small UK packages will go via Royal Mail.

If someone has a better suggestion please let us know.

As for the Einstein's we are expecting our AU pre-orders within the next few weeks, there are a number of European Customers who have pre-ordered and they will be shipped from the UK.

I have a demo Einstein, I understand it has been a long time coming but it will be worth the wait.

I hope that explains the shipping.

Colin.
 
Colin Smith said:
With regards to shipping, I am not sure if anyone is aware but freight companies such as TNT use a measurement called volumetric weight to charge for their service. What that means is they take the dimensions of a package and run a calculation on it to come up with a cost per kg for a shipment.

That is all well and good but it goes pear shaped when you have a softbox that is 2kg but is large dimensionally. we may then get charged for 20kg.

You then get a Vagabond which is 10kg comes in a smaller box and we get charged for 10kg.

This makes it very difficult to calculate shipping because there are so many variable associated with it.

So how do we do it? In Australia we found that using a percentage of the total order price is about the best way to do it, maybe not perfect but we have had 380 orders and I think we have it about right. Currently they are about 4% for Australian orders and about 20% for international orders + $10

For the UK we have not shipped anything yet, we have had rate cards from TNT but until we start shipping we are not going to be able to estimate it accurately. We have run tests and the calculations are approximately again 4% for UK orders and 15% for overseas orders. This will change once we start shipping to get a more accurate costing. Lets not forget the insurance associated with these shipments.

Small UK packages will go via Royal Mail.

If someone has a better suggestion please let us know.

As for the Einstein's we are expecting our AU pre-orders within the next few weeks, there are a number of European Customers who have pre-ordered and they will be shipped from the UK.

I have a demo Einstein, I understand it has been a long time coming but it will be worth the wait.

I hope that explains the shipping.

Colin.
Click to expand...

Colin, I've emailed you a link to a UK/EU courier service that might be able to help you...
 
Colin Smith said:
For the UK we have not shipped anything yet, we have had rate cards from TNT but until we start shipping we are not going to be able to estimate it accurately. We have run tests and the calculations are approximately again 4% for UK orders and 15% for overseas orders. This will change once we start shipping to get a more accurate costing. Lets not forget the insurance associated with these shipments.

Small UK packages will go via Royal Mail.

I hope that explains the shipping....
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It explains how the estimates are calculated but it won't stop folks hair turning white when reading them. ;)

As it is at the moment, there's a notice that mentions that the shipping costs are merely estimates, and that an email will be sent with a more accurate fee.

Instead, you could bypass the estimated calculations altogether and just send the mail with the more accurate shipping costs and method. :shrug:

Flash In The Pan said:
Colin, I've emailed you a link to a UK/EU courier service that might be able to help you...
Click to expand...

...Or you could listen to Graham's idea which is more than likely, far more senisble than mine :lol:
 
Tomas Whitehouse said:
:lol: How about if there just nice and a little bit funny?

I can also make nice cake, surely that's a positive in eligibility for discounts? :naughty:
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That's all well and good Thomas but are you aware that having wonky eyebrows is a massive negative and as a result you'll have to pay higher delivery charges anyway??;)
 
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onform said:
That's all well and good Thomas but are you aware that having wonky eyebrows is a massive negative and as a result you'll have to pay higher delivery charges anyway??;)
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...but...cake...hello? Cake...
 
onform said:
That's all well and good Thomas but are you aware that having wonky eyebrows is a massive negative and as a result you'll have to pay higher delivery charges anyway??;)
Click to expand...

Aha but wonky eyebrows are tools of the Jedi, if I evasively manoeuvre them, they have hypnotic qualities - thus lulling my prey into a overly generous and compliant state :naughty::naughty::naughty:

Arkady said:
...but...cake...hello? Cake...
Click to expand...

See it's working already...mwha ha ha!

As Freddy Krueger once said:

"You are all my children now...."
 
Throw in a bottle of 'Dunhabbibbahmimwahuhn' and we're away...lol
 
Colin Smith said:
Firstly can I please get one thing straight this is not a con and we certainly are not treating our customers like idiots.

We would rather over quote someone and charge them less than have to ask someone for more after they have place their order.

The prices on the website will change, they have not changed because of complaints and they will go up and down with fluctuations that are outside of our control.

Your post was not constructive it just sounded bitter. There is not a lot I can do about that. PM me your telephone number and we can maybe discuss it further.

Colin.
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My post was highlighting that all of your price changes and lowering of costs (which made me more excited about the products) just happened to be the exact same amount as the shipping went up. Can you not understand why I and many other would consider this to be a seeming con? Surely there was some reasoning behind this move, and as you have no real courier arrangements it to me seems to be a little more sinister.

I wish you all the best with this, I fear pricing may make things difficult, and the whole thing has left me with a bitter taste. The fact you are on the forum, explaining yourselves and interacting with customers may prove me wrong, and I hope you do.

My posts are not of bitterness, but the practices carried out so far do not sit well with me and I would imagine others.
 
Tomas Whitehouse said:
And you'll be paying 2-3 times the price for portable Elinchrom gear and their accessories.
Click to expand...

Pricing is not that much more on softboxes etc. Agreed they are more but not massively

Tomas Whitehouse said:
I have an XT, I wouldn't say it's a competitor to the VII.

Primarily as there are no dealers in the UK that sell Innovatronix gear, so you'll have to import. Prices begin around 400€, average price is 469€ (£406).
Click to expand...

At exchange rate this morning £295 delivered plus import duty, do agree about service though why do you not think it is a competitor?

Tomas Whitehouse said:
It is and will be a deterrent for anyone who does or doesn't recognise the usual carriage costs......

It's more than possible to get accurate postage rates using these services.
Click to expand...

This is where my ill feeling is. You yourself noticed the huge rise in delivery prices. Do you not think that as the prices were lowered the postage cost rose to make the total price exactly the same? Does that not smell fishy to you?

I understand about carriage costs etc. But prices that make an order exactly match the costs before the price drop, do you really think that is good and honourable business practice?

I am not knocking their product, and I have been corrected about the fact that EU is not Paul C Buff themselves, but in fact just a reseller with the name Paul C Buff Eu. I think the vagabond looks like an amazing light, and if they make progress I may be changed and invest. I hope they do. But for me 2 500 BXRI Kit, or 2 Alien Bee 1600s kit for the same price, to me there is no contest.


Tomas Whitehouse said:
Just avoid City Link like the Bubonic Plague!!!
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On this at least we most definitely agree!
 
ding76uk said:
Pricing is not that much more on softboxes etc. Agreed they are more but not massively.
Click to expand...

Elinchrom 50 inch octa is twice the price of the PCB alternative. True it may be more robust though :shrug:

Finnish prices are even worse, Elinchrom 100cm Octa = 350€.

Generally speaking I find Elinchrom have pretty heavy prices on accessories.
A good mate of mine paid over 200€ for a 1 meter Quadra extension cable and the speedring adapter. :eek:

ding76uk said:
At exchange rate this morning £295 delivered plus import duty, do agree about service though why do you not think it is a competitor?
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That's not a bad price delivered at all, where was that from?
I have a mate in Brum who's looking at XT's y'see.

At that kind of a price, it could be considered more of a competitor to the VII, but if your going to be able to buy VII's within the UK and receive the Buff warranty and customer services then I think the VII looks like the winner.

ding76uk said:
This is where my ill feeling is. You yourself noticed the huge rise in delivery prices. Do you not think that as the prices were lowered the postage cost rose to make the total price exactly the same? Does that not smell fishy to you?
Click to expand...

Admittedly that's how it appeared initially.

I had a hunch that as no UK orders have been shipped and the EU site does stipulate the delivery fee as an estimate only, that nothing sinister was afoot though. Just a vague and over calculated estimate that was going to be rectified.

I didn't think for a moment that folk would actually be charged over £100 on a 20kg order from within the UK.

ding76uk said:
I understand about carriage costs etc. But prices that make an order exactly match the costs before the price drop, do you really think that is good and honourable business practice?
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Dishonourable? No. Vague and obscure? Yes.

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, I can only imagine the sheer size of a venture like this and certainly do not envy the kind of work it involves. Mistakes and their solutions will be made in such early days. This is inevitable.

The EU sites been live for such a short time already, it's better to get it live and iron the creases before shipment starts.

ding76uk said:
I am not knocking their product, and I have been corrected about the fact that EU is not Paul C Buff themselves, but in fact just a reseller with the name Paul C Buff Eu. I think the vagabond looks like an amazing light, and if they make progress I may be changed and invest. I hope they do. But for me 2 500 BXRI Kit, or 2 Alien Bee 1600s kit for the same price, to me there is no contest.
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Fair enough mate ;) Elinchrom is good brand, I just find that for the kind of workflow I have, I'd be spending too close to Profoto prices to get what I need.
That and the Eli mounting system which I really can't get on with at all.

ding76uk said:
On this at least we most definitely agree!
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:lol: Citylink are the apex of all that a courier service shouldn't be! It's really quite comical how bad they are :D
 
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Tomas Whitehouse said:
I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt
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Spose I should do the same, the election and the total mess before during and now after has made me a bit bitter at the moment.:lol:

I want the venture to work, as I do for anyone who is in things for the right reasons and I am sure they are in the middle of a nightmare, but I am always v wary when things like the postage thing happen. This election has turned me into Mr Grinch. Benefit of doubt now given pending further evidence, and appols to any offence to the Paul C Buff Eu lot, now about them free samples.......
 
ding76uk said:
Benefit of doubt now given pending further evidence, and appols to any offence to the Paul C Buff Eu lot, now about them free samples.......
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Good on yer Carl :thumbs:

As for the free samples...

:suspect:

....on the count of three, begin to manoeuvre your eyebrows in a wonky and provocative manner...

....then softly usher the promise of cake

1.....,2....,3!


:naughty::naughty::naughty::naughty:
 
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Colin, thanks for your assistance!

OK, my order is placed No17 on the list, now we just need to wait...
:-)
 
I'm sure 'The Flash Centre" is the UK stockist for the Explorer XT.......See this LINK and this PDF from them. The price is £335 direct from them.

Simon
 
SAuchterlonie said:
I'm sure 'The Flash Centre" is the UK stockist for the Explorer XT.......See this LINK and this PDF from them. The price is £335 direct from them.

Simon
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Superb! Cheers very much. I'll pass that on to my mate in Brum, although he may just wait for the VII :shrug:
 
No worries mate. Although I think the XT looks like a good pack from what I've read and seen the VII is a little better, but the XT works with a larger amount of lights.

Simon
 
Make sure you get the XT SE version for maximum compatibility with modern multi switching flashes.

Do a search for 'explorer' on http://photography-on-the.net Small flash and studio lighting where explorer vs vagabond has been discussed ad infinitum.

Thoughts from some that have both is the Explorer wins.
 
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SAuchterlonie said:
No worries mate. Although I think the XT looks like a good pack from what I've read and seen the VII is a little better, but the XT works with a larger amount of lights.

Simon
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Cheers Si, It's amazing how difficult it is to get results from Google on UK retailers that sell the XT. It seems like the Flash Center is the only one.
Indeed you can order direct from Innovatronix but my mate didn't fancy that at all, so cheers again :thumbs:

Kris said:
Do a search for 'explorer' on http://photography-on-the.net Small flash and studio lighting where explorer vs vagabond has been discussed ad infinitum.

Thoughts from some that have both is the Explorer wins.
Click to expand...

About a month ago, I bought an XT, they were on sale from a pretty decent Finnish supplier at 399€/£343.

There is indeed a lot of comparisons between the XT and the VII webwise, the usual differences discussed are the battery, VII is at 12V and the XT is at 24.
The VII as a no spill and can be taken on planes whereas the XT doesn't and can't.
Both have compatibility issues with certain brands, both weigh the same etc.

There are a few minor points that suggest that the XT is a better buy but there's not a fat lot of info that suggests that the XT is a direct competitor.

They both seem extremely similar but if your looking to primarily power non Buff gear with a battery pack, then the chances are the XT maybe better suited.

If I'm investing in a couple of Einsteins, my money is on the VII rather than buying another XT or XT SE to power them and for a couple of reasons.

First is that Buff EU will have a location based in the UK so spares and repairs should be more effective than having your HQ in the Phillipines as with Innovatronix.
Secondly, the carry case that's supplied with an XT is more like the thin shaving bag you may get free with the latest Gilette razor.
The carry case with the VII is very similar to the case that was supplied with my Profoto AcuteB 600R, (which they charge 500€ seperatley here:eek:), thicker, more water resistant and much more protective.

Finally, I'm not too sure how much this matters but maybe if your shooting in a damp or moist environments, it could be worth a sniff:

Due to the Explorers design, which has a lateral exhaust, the air is drawn through the back and blown out the front vent, so the thin carry case has front and rear flaps to allow clear air passage through the device. Both flaps need to be open during use. This makes me quite conscious of how I'm setting the XT down when out and about. The inner components seem to be quite exposed with this factor in mind.

The exhaust system for the VII appears to be on the top and thus only the top flap need be open during use. This seems to be a little more intelligent with the above in mind.

Admittedly this last point is just a speculative concern I have, nothings blown up thus far but I'll be able to give a far more informed account as and when I've been using both systems a little more.

I'm going to travelling a fair bit now until after the summer, so I'll be placing my order for 2 Einsteins and a single VII more towards the fall.

I'll be happy to pass on all the field details then ;)
 
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Just thought I would mention that AB Einsteins are having some real issues with interference when used with Pocket Wizards and possibly with Cyber Commander. Problem has been acknowledged by Paul Buff on other forii and they are researching a solution.

Just in case you weren't aware before ordering...
 
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