Paul C. Buff products coming to the UK....

HarryL said:
Yes Tronix Explorer, Bowens travelpak and the Vagabond all use 1 or 2 SLAs (sealed lead acid) batteries (car batteries in other words) to crank up the voltage to 220-240v so AC monoblocs can be used outdoors (without rain that is).

And I believe Profoto, Hensel Porty, Ranger and the Safari all use 12-24v NiMH or Lithuim batteries.

Safety aside, the size and weight are VERY different.
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I shoot with a Profoto AcuteB 600r, also Tronix packs + AC heads and a chap who assists me regularly has a Quadra, we shoot a fair bit together.

I wouldn't be shooting with any of the above in the rain or if it were too damp. Full stop. The Vagabond's carry case is very similar to the 500 euro Profoto case that came with the set, far superior to the Tronix carry cases, by absolute miles.

Aside from a Quadra, you wouldn't want to be carrying any of these options for too long at all. Especially while shooting.
 
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We can argue for every about the relative merits of different products - and everyone is right and everyone is wrong, because different things are important to different people.

But what I think this thread is about is pricing - and as AB are very much a 'budget' brand in the U.S. and sell in huge numbers only because they are cheap, I doubt whether many people in this country will be prepared to pay high end prices for low end products.

The other big advantage that they have in their home country is the quality of their customer service, which at the moment is an unknown quantity in this country.
 
Garry Edwards said:
We can argue for every about the relative merits of different products - and everyone is right and everyone is wrong, because different things are important to different people.

But what I think this thread is about is pricing - and as AB are very much a 'budget' brand in the U.S. and sell in huge numbers only because they are cheap, I doubt whether many people in this country will be prepared to pay high end prices for low end products.
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I agree, and this is where AB's could get their foot in the door, aside from Lencarta's Safari :naughty: no other brand offers portability as cheap as Buff, even with the US to UK price differences.

'Low end'? Have you used AB's Garry?

Garry Edwards said:
The other big advantage that they have in their home country is the quality of their customer service, which at the moment is an unknown quantity in this country.
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Very true. Just like the rest of the speculation, time will tell. :thumbs:

Anyway, I'm off to cook some more, were having a BBQ! It's Vappu here in Finland, a kinda May Day celebratory effort is underway, I'm I'm cracking open the Bunnhabhain in a mo! :naughty:
 
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Tomas Whitehouse said:
Aside from a Quadra, you wouldn't want to be carrying any of these options for too long at all. Especially while shooting.
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Just ask my missus. She can carry the quadra all day at a wedding, and she still talks to me on the way home....

The other options are more huff and puff to the location, then stay put.
 
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Tomas Whitehouse said:
I agree, and this is where AB's could get their foot in the door, aside from Lencarta's Safari :naughty: no other brand offers portability as cheap as Buff, even with the US to UK price differences.

'Low end'? Have you used AB's Garry?



Very true. Just like the rest of the speculation, time will tell. :thumbs:
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A bit of it, not a lot.
I used their AB400 when I was in Florida. It only has one capacitor, which probably explains why the colour temperature was all over the place (no colour temp meter there at the time so a purely subjective judgement, but the variation from full power to min power was unbelevable) and why the flash energy varied by around 30% shot to shot.

I played with their ringflash in NYC but didn't get a chance to use it. Very awkward to fit to the camera and not exactly ergonomically designed or well built.

I'd like to try out the new Einstein, now that does look to be a good product if it does what is claimed for it, but as there have been a lot of false starts it's anyone's guess at the moment. But it does sound promising, at least as U.S. prices...
 
Tomas Whitehouse said:
:lol: :thumbs:
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This is very, very important to me.

This summer season, she will be 6-9 months pregnant. I cant imagine the poor lass carrying a vagabond and b1600 anywhere, can you?

If it wasn't for the quadra, I'd be looking for an assistant. Or changing my style.
 
Garry Edwards said:
A bit of it, not a lot.
I used their AB400 when I was in Florida. It only has one capacitor, which probably explains why the colour temperature was all over the place (no colour temp meter there at the time so a purely subjective judgement, but the variation from full power to min power was unbelevable) and why the flash energy varied by around 30% shot to shot.

I played with their ringflash in NYC but didn't get a chance to use it. Very awkward to fit to the camera and not exactly ergonomically designed or well built.

I'd like to try out the new Einstein, now that does look to be a good product if it does what is claimed for it, but as there have been a lot of false starts it's anyone's guess at the moment. But it does sound promising, at least as U.S. prices...
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Garry, how do you know ABs only have one capacitor?
 
By the way, does anyone know what fitting ABs use? Can you get 3rd parties ones easily? Their beauty dish is not exactly "bang for the pound" (well, better than some), £95 for a 22" dish. Presumably grids and diffusers are at extra.
 
Well, since AB stuff will be availble in UK - you will quickly notice the buzz on ebay to ... People in China will take care of that.
 
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I'm still waiting for a 'cheap' PLM copy. (yes, I do know about the Viewfinder copy, but that aint cheap).
 
Does anyone have any knowledge of the success or otherwise of the Australia importation?
 
HarryL said:
Garry, how do you know ABs only have one capacitor?
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It was pretty obvious, after testing it, that there wasn't going to be much inside the case, so I took a look. I'm the curious type and like to fiddle with things:)
Here's a post by a happy user, near the bottom you'll see some pics that confirm that there is just the one capacitor.
There are sound economic reasons for cutting down on the number of capacitors:
1. Cost of the capacitors themselves and the labour putting it all together
2. Size of flash head
3. Weight of flash head
4. The less capacitors there are, the less likely it is that one will blow.

Maybe that's why so many of the budget flashes sold in this country, as well as in the U.S. have just one or two capacitors - what's inside the flash head is something that very few sellers think their customers should know about:) so the only way to find out is usually to take one apart, which most people can't do because they don't have access to the various makes...

But there are sound quality reasons for having plenty of capacitors:
1. Much more stable colour temperature. With say 10 capacitors, when reducing the power to half, half of the capacitors are simply switched out of the system, producing the same colour temperature as at full power.
2. Much more stable flash duration, for the same reason.
3. Much faster recycling.

Now, reducing the power without switching out capacitors (heads with very few capacitors) involves using a potentiometer. This plays havoc with colour temperature and flash energy consistency.

In reality, AFAIK all manufacturers with multiple capacitor flash heads have to use a potentiometer as well as switching out capacitors, to get the very fine adjustments demanded by todays' customers - but the more capacitors there are, the less the potentiometer has to do, so even though even the best heads have a potentiometer, it's still much better to buy a head that has a large number of capacitors.
 
Kris said:
They use the Balcar mount.

I think the cheap price of the Alien Bee accessories and modifiers make it good value in the US, but the mount is weird. And you certainly will be going to Alien Bee Euriope for your accessories...

Compare here....
http://photography.shop.ebay.co.uk/...en+bee&_catref=1&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m282

and
http://photography.shop.ebay.co.uk/...uipment_RL&_odkw=alien+bee&_osacat=625&bkBtn=
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It's certainly 'different'.
And I don't know whether they still use that horrible highly polished standard reflector but anyone buying one will very quickly want to get an alternative one and swap light quantity for light quality and get one that doesn't create horrible hotspots and double shadows when used with honeycombs.
 
Garry Edwards said:
It was pretty obvious, after testing it, that there wasn't going to be much inside the case, so I took a look. I'm the curious type and like to fiddle with things:)
Here's a post by a happy user, near the bottom you'll see some pics that confirm that there is just the one capacitor.
There are sound economic reasons for cutting down on the number of capacitors:
1. Cost of the capacitors themselves and the labour putting it all together
2. Size of flash head
3. Weight of flash head
4. The less capacitors there are, the less likely it is that one will blow.

Maybe that's why so many of the budget flashes sold in this country, as well as in the U.S. have just one or two capacitors - what's inside the flash head is something that very few sellers think their customers should know about:) so the only way to find out is usually to take one apart, which most people can't do because they don't have access to the various makes...

But there are sound quality reasons for having plenty of capacitors:
1. Much more stable colour temperature. With say 10 capacitors, when reducing the power to half, half of the capacitors are simply switched out of the system, producing the same colour temperature as at full power.
2. Much more stable flash duration, for the same reason.
3. Much faster recycling.

Now, reducing the power without switching out capacitors (heads with very few capacitors) involves using a potentiometer. This plays havoc with colour temperature and flash energy consistency.

In reality, AFAIK all manufacturers with multiple capacitor flash heads have to use a potentiometer as well as switching out capacitors, to get the very fine adjustments demanded by todays' customers - but the more capacitors there are, the less the potentiometer has to do, so even though even the best heads have a potentiometer, it's still much better to buy a head that has a large number of capacitors.
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Wow that's hardcore stuff. You'd better tell me my lencarta smartflash has loads of capacitors...... :thinking::thinking::thinking:
 
A little further down...

"You'll find one flash capacitor in a B400, two in a B800 and 4 in a B1600."

The only possibility for me would be the Einstein.
 
HarryL said:
Wow that's hardcore stuff. You'd better tell me my lencarta smartflash has loads of capacitors...... :thinking::thinking::thinking:
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Ah, that's bottom of the Lencarta range - it only has 9 capacitors:)
 
Mothman said:
Oh please!!!

Please take a look at flickr which is flooded with photos taken with AB equipment!
There is a lot of amazing quality stuff in people portfolios. David Hobby and Joey L were shooting with this gear commercial photos – eventually they moved to Profoto for obvious reasons.

IMO:

I was looking on Lencarta stuff for a while - and I must say that the thing which put me off - was that I simply couldn’t find descent photos produced with this gear!
For long time there was not much good quality photos even on Lencarta website! [on main page there is a photo which for me is simply showing issue with flash duration!]

Especially pictures from Lencarta workshops showing the mediocre quality of light (or their modifiers)

Ok… now you can burn me at the stake! But this is how Lencarta is appearing to usual people who browsing over the web for lighting kit - like me!!

Best
Jaroslav
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A flash is a flash, as long as it's consistent. I see photography as painting with light. And flash heads are just paint brushes.

I'm not sure what makes a good paint brush, but with flash heads it's the consistency of light in terms of colour temp and intensity, recylcing speed, flash duration, modeling lamp wattage, fan cooling, accessory range and of course build quality. These factors are all measureable.

So perhaps you can't find good photos done using Lencarta lights. But if the stated spec is there, why does that matter? No one blames the paint brush for a poor painting, well, maybe except the artist who's simply not good enough. Same with pianos.

BTW, you need to look at Jonathan Ryan's photo shoot vid and Flickr. He's done quite a few commercial shoots with Lencarta stuff, and speaks highly of the Lencarta Safari even in comparison to his Bron Mobils (see his mini review in the comment section).

I've also heard Marc Guggenheim uses a Lencarta Safari nowadays instead of his Brons. Now Marc is somebody who I'd call top class pro. He was the photographer who shot the Levis adverts, etc.

I'm saying this as a happy Lencarta user.
 
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In summary, Paul C Buff has not quite worked out the market for Europe, as I said in one of my (or the only) other posts I made in this thread.

Paul, (first name terms already) if you see this thread why not contact me, after all I am one of your potential customers, lets talk........................
 
I don't think if Mr Buff gives a toss about us, since we are not yankees... I'm saying this by observing the company's track record in international expansion... LOL
 
Kris said:
This is very, very important to me.

This summer season, she will be 6-9 months pregnant. I cant imagine the poor lass carrying a vagabond and b1600 anywhere, can you?
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I can't imagine why your asking your poor wife at 6-9 months pregnant, to assist you at wedding shoots in all honesty mate. :lol:

Kris said:
If it wasn't for the quadra, I'd be looking for an assistant. Or changing my style.
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Maybe look for an assistant, or change your style then.

Hotshoe flashes are ample for on the go wedding work. :naughty: Maybe give them a look in.
 
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I do her a disservice, she's more a second shooter than assistant. She's only now starting to show.

Tomas Whitehouse said:
Hotshoe flashes are ample for on the go wedding work. :naughty: Maybe give them a look in.
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When hot shoe guns give me f11 or f13 in a 42 from 6ft, I'll be first in the queue. It only comes out once or twice, to be honest, but when you need the power (and clients have seen images in sample albums), you need it.

Besides, a quadra head weighs a lot less than two 580exII (it weighs less than one sb900, unfortunately the cable is 400grams), and I got a cracking deal I couldn't refuse.
 
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just briefly on the money side..

US retail will already include a markup, so the sell price to UK retailer should be cheaper, add import duty and vat (8% and 17.5%) then profit. No more than 40% profit if selling directly, more if you are going through dealers.

AB1600 in the US $359

AB1600 in the UK £393

359 / 1.5 239.33, 41.88 vat 19.14 import tax thats £300.35, there will already be a markup in that as the retail $ will likely have at least 40% on it.

bank charges? change bank. airfreight, weve just paid $500 for a huge crate of stuff, if you get a container its cheaper (relatively)

basically, hes making a big chunk of cash. good luck to him!
 
matty said:
...basically, hes making a big chunk of cash. good luck to him!
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My sentiments exactly.

Speculation aside, I'm pleased that there is finally EU distribution and will be keeping an eye on the developments, progress and feedback.

I don't think Buff's priced himself out of the market at all, Alien Bee's and the rest of Buff gear has a good chance at offering cheaper mobile solutions.

With the exception of Lencarta, None of the leading brands offer a price equivalent.

Elinchrom may have more whistles and bells in a few departments, but it's twice the price for almost twice the features that not everyone needs.

A Quadra set in Finland cost the best part of 1600€, for a 400ws system that focusses primarily on providing portability with the compromise of a lower power output.

For 1600€, that could roughly get 2 Einsteins and a VII. This kind of set up is valuable and productive to me and it will be to others.

There are definite holes in the market for Buff and I think if he hadn't recognised them then this EU venture would have never materialised in the first place.

The key elements are the quality out in the real world and of course, the standard of customer services.

As mentioned before, only time will tell. It'll be interesting to see what develops.
 
Tomas Whitehouse said:
...offering cheaper mobile solutions.

With the exception of Lencarta, None of the leading brands offer a price equivalent.
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Mobile being the operative word. The Vagabond is the only reason to buy AB.

But the vagabond is just an inverter and battery. I would prefer an Explorer XT SE than a Vagabond, if only I was married to a body builder.

I think even the basic Eli D-Lites have far more features than the standard Alien Bee B****, which are old technology that, as far as I can tell and read from people who have used them, have certain consistency problems. Hence the Einstein. But the Einstein competes with the likes of the Elinchrom BXRi, at a roughly £100 price increase or the styles at slightly less, even before you add the snazzy controller.

BTW, the Einstein is no longer price labelled on their site. It says 'call for price'. What's the odds on it going up in price then?????
 
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Kris said:
But the vagabond is just an inverter and battery. I would prefer an Explorer XT SE than a Vagabond, if only I was married to a body builder.
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Both the VII and a Tronix packs weigh around the same = approx 9 kilo.

Kris said:
BTW, the Einstein is no longer price labelled on their site. It says 'call for price'. What's the odds on it going up in price then?????
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It seems the whole site is having some work done, It's been down a bunch of times :shrug: The prices were in dollars earlier :cuckoo:

I think the main reason to pull the price could possibly be that the Einstein's were only available for pre-order. They may have pre sold the first run?
 
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Kris said:
Exactly, the battery for the quadra is less than a third of that.

Priorities...
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For you and your second shooter yes. For me, no.

A Quadra pack is a very pricey unit that only offers a more lightweight advantage. An Advantage that I have no use for at all.

Elinchroms largest downfall for me, is the price and the compatibility of accessories. The softbox adaptor and the extension cables for the Quadra for example.
Now there's a laugh :lol: If I want silly prices like that, I'll continue adding to my Profoto stuff :thumbs:

2 Einsteins plus the VII kicks that carp out of a Quadra as far as my priorities are concerned. ;)
 
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So the prices have taken a tumble on the site

Einstein £417
Vagabond £291

Getting more like it
 
I wonder if their sales executives have been reading sites like this.
 
Shipping fee for an Einstein and vagabond is £57 ....in the UK..........:eek:

What he gives with one hand he takes with the other.
 
tiler65 said:
Shipping fee for an Einstein and vagabond is £57 ....in the UK..........:eek:

What he gives with one hand he takes with the other.
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I thought shipping was only an estimate ?
 
I went through to check out and this is what I was going to put on my payment.

Tomas was quoted as £32 to Finland..........go figure.

Supposed to be in the UK distribution centre.
 
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