paul c buff einstein

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alsos

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I am drawn towards getting a pair of Einsteins.
my question is, are there any alternatives. obviously the reason for me looking at these and the priority is the very fast flash duration for freezing action. I have various Bowens modifiers which would be useful if an alternative was available which took bowens S fitting modifiers.
Obviously Quadra's and safari's are part of the way towards the 13000's duration of the Einsteins.
Im not bothered about battery support as I have a Explorer XT to run them from.
Any suggestions welcome please
 
The Einstein may be a good choice for you if you need really short flash durations, although you do need to be aware that
1. They are an expensive option outside the USA and they aren't exactly selling like hot cakes, so I don't know what the customer support is like if you run into any problems.
2. You will only get really short flash durations if you turn the power right down. This review is very helpful.

If you're shooting fast moving subjects (and need to freeze the movement) in the studio then they will do the job very well, and probably as well as anything else available, because power won't be a big issue. But if you're using them outdoors in bright lighting conditions they will have far too little power once you've turned them down far enough to get short flash durations - and it's pretty pointless having really fast flash durations if the shutter speed is letting in so much ambient light that the flash is effectively contributing little or nothing to the shot - you may as well just use the ambient light at a high shutter speed and forget about the flash...

The only real alternative in this situation is to use a powerful battery powered flash such as Profoto or Lencarta Safari Li-on and use a neutral density filter to reduce the contribution of the ambient light. This will generally give you better results than a less powerful flash with a shorter flash duration.

If the level of ambient light doesn't matter to you then you have other choices. The Elinchrom Quadra with the fast head, or a hotshoe flash alternative like the Quantum or Strobeam, although again they use IGBT to achieve the short flash durations so you need to turn the power down and will end up with very little power at really short flash durations
 
Garry Edwards said:
1. They are an expensive option outside the USA and they aren't exactly selling like hot cakes, so I don't know what the customer support is like if you run into any problems.
Click to expand...

I'd echo this. I bought two AB800 heads from the UK supplier (already had Alien Bee stuff that I'd bought from the US years ago). The price is too high for the UK market in my opinion.

Also I'm very wary of the customer service in the UK. In the US it is faultless but they won't deal with UK issues. I had to wait weeks for the two heads I bought (despite being told over the phone they were in stock and available next day). I also ordered a Mini Vagabond but after waiting 5 months, when I was told it'd be a month, I cancelled the order and bought one in the US during a work trip (which was also half the price of the UK version).

This may have changed during the last 18 months but my own view is that Paul C Buff have shot themselves in the foot with the UK operation. Their selling points in the US are cheap prices and great customer service and, in the UK, we get neither.

I really rate ABs as a product but having had to deal with a UK supplier who cannot give accurate delivery dates and seemingly buy from the US at no discounted cost (thus passing all the markup on to the buyer) I wouldn't buy Paul C Buff again.
 
Hi,
Bought a couple of Einsteins about a month ago, I have tested them and they do what it says on the tin! I was concerned about service but I am hoping I won't need it. You will need to factor in a conversion speed ring for Bowens fit softboxes but they have a slot for umbrella's.
As Garry says to achieve 1/13000 you are on minimum power but they are 600 ws so even on 1/4 power the duration is very short and there is a trade off with colour consistency. I don't know what application you have in mind of course but if I can offer anything further then please ask, unfortunately you are a little too far to have a play. I am down in Dorset in June if you can wait!!

Dunc
 
Duncan.F said:
Hi,
Bought a couple of Einsteins about a month ago, I have tested them and they do what it says on the tin! I was concerned about service but I am hoping I won't need it. You will need to factor in a conversion speed ring for Bowens fit softboxes but they have a slot for umbrella's.
As Garry says to achieve 1/13000 you are on minimum power but they are 600 ws so even on 1/4 power the duration is very short and there is a trade off with colour consistency. I don't know what application you have in mind of course but if I can offer anything further then please ask, unfortunately you are a little too far to have a play. I am down in Dorset in June if you can wait!!

Dunc
Click to expand...
Problem is, you have to go down to 2.5Ws (about the power of a swan vesper:) to get the 1/13,000th...
 
Duncan.F said:
Thats wot I said minimum power....Still a lot quicker than them Elite Pros...;)
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Agreed - basically you have a choice, and the right choice will depend on your priorities.
1. Very fast flash duration via IGBT control, at the cost of colour temperature and power.
2. Power and colour consistency at the cost of slower flash duration.

Neither is 100% right or wrong, it's just horses for courses.
 
What do you need these for?

If it's outdoor then you're going to struggle getting high enough power with short duration to shoot anything reasonable. Chase Jarvis famously ran some Scoros off a major league generator - http://blog.chasejarvis.com/blog/2009/10/chase-jarvis-tech-strobed-photo-sequences/

Indoors....Scoro, Profoto Air 8 or any IGBT based flash pack are basically your choices. As far as I know, the only IGBT based flash systems currently available are Einstein or Strobeam - or pretty much any hotshoe style speedlight.
 
adamgasson said:
I'd echo this. I bought two AB800 heads from the UK supplier (already had Alien Bee stuff that I'd bought from the US years ago). The price is too high for the UK market in my opinion.

Also I'm very wary of the customer service in the UK. In the US it is faultless but they won't deal with UK issues. I had to wait weeks for the two heads I bought (despite being told over the phone they were in stock and available next day). I also ordered a Mini Vagabond but after waiting 5 months, when I was told it'd be a month, I cancelled the order and bought one in the US during a work trip (which was also half the price of the UK version).

This may have changed during the last 18 months but my own view is that Paul C Buff have shot themselves in the foot with the UK operation. Their selling points in the US are cheap prices and great customer service and, in the UK, we get neither.

I really rate ABs as a product but having had to deal with a UK supplier who cannot give accurate delivery dates and seemingly buy from the US at no discounted cost (thus passing all the markup on to the buyer) I wouldn't buy Paul C Buff again.
Click to expand...
Considering that the UK website delivers 1990s webdesign, I'm not very surprised about your observations. If your delivery channels are rubbish, the entry barriers are high and there are plenty of undifferentiated competitors, then do not enter the market.
 
Hey guys sorry for the delay.
Thanks for the responses all food for thought, just when I thought I had made my mind up! I'm all torn up again lol
I've been asked a couple of times through the thread what do I want to shoot? I can narrow it down a little....
I have been asked by a friend to shoot him and friends mountain biking and I also want to do some "staged" sports in general. we've sat down and a number of the shots we selected that we all like are flash lit, this has been somewhat lead by my inspiration (links) of a direction I would like to take my photography in.
http://fstoppers.com/btsv-contest-underwater-swim-shoot
http://fstoppers.com/contest-entry-shooting-the-byu-gymnastics-team-soaking-wet
http://fstoppers.com/dramatic-portraits-of-the-university-of-indianas-track-and-field-team
Now I realise that my options are limited and that my suggestion of the Einstein's has been somewhat bias due to the fact they are all shot in the states, valid points above in regards to the support. Nothing hacks me off more than poor customer service. I would happily pay more upfront for good customer support. I hadnt intended on spending the sort of money the profoto system would entail as I would like to have a two light set-up minimum.
Im now back to wondering if I should be looking at a multiple speedlight setup, though that comes with its own quandaries, what brand which model and the hassle of dozens of batteries and several chargers doesn't inspire me! in fact I have three already two 285hv's and a 430exii, I have noticed the strobe like delayed exposures with this set up and see no point using this combination.
Thanks for the offer Duncan I might well take you up on that regardless if I have made a decision or purchase, its always good to have a comparison.
I have read and re-read the other rather lengthy thread I found on here (after posting this one) my head was spinning after going through that one :thinking: I would buy the Lencarta with confidence of the support and quality but without knowing if the 1400th was fast enough for 70+% of what I want. The same storey about the Quadras about quality and service, after seeing Waynes jump shot looks like it'll be up to ithttp://images.piccsy.com/cache/images/jump-by-wayne-lawes-obmnvq6c8-113275-515-723.jpg
 
alsos said:
I've been asked a couple of times through the thread what do I want to shoot? I can narrow it down a little....
I have been asked by a friend to shoot him and friends mountain biking and I also want to do some "staged" sports in general. we've sat down and a number of the shots we selected that we all like are flash lit, this has been somewhat lead by my inspiration (links) of a direction I would like to take my photography in.
http://fstoppers.com/btsv-contest-underwater-swim-shoot
http://fstoppers.com/contest-entry-shooting-the-byu-gymnastics-team-soaking-wet
http://fstoppers.com/dramatic-portraits-of-the-university-of-indianas-track-and-field-team
Click to expand...

Dude! Go big or go home :)

Very cool stuff on those links.

Action stopping calculations for water and stuff are somewhat hit and miss (for one thing it depends if the water is travelling towards the image plane or across it and that's semi random) but I suspect you'll want to go as fast as you can.

Rent Bron/Profotos or buy Strobeam / Einstein would be my solutions. Personally I'd buy Strobeam over Einstein on support reasons alone but some may call me biased. (I, um, do some support for Strobeam....)
 
Al, I shot a feature for BBC Focus magazine testing waterproof coats by chucking water over a model in a black tank setup pretty much identical to the second link you posted. I was using two Alien Bee 800W, two 600Ws lights I got off eBay and two old Bowens Esprit heads. Power was kept as low as possible and we had no problem freezing the water.

Photographing a swimmer diving would need a faster flash duration, that's true, but I think for most setups you don't really need such a fast flash duration.

I've also photographed Olympic sprint Dai Greene hurdling (which you can see here). This was using single a Alien Bee 400W head on quite high power with the older Vagabond pack. The only real sign of movement is the leading arm where the light didn't hit (bloody second head didn't fire!). So, again, I'm not sure if having 1/13000s is really necessary for every day shoots.
 
@Adam - some nice pics on your site ;)

The hurdler one....this is what I was alluding to about how the water is travelling. He's heading towards the camera which is going to make him look stiller than if he was travelling across the image plane. The hand that's moving is also travelling across the plane (as well as the flash not firing). Random water is also going to be travelling rather faster than even a top hurdler. Since it's mainly translucent it might also look like it's travelling even faster (since the opaque leading edge can be tiny).

I'd be very interested to see your water pics since a lot of this is speculation ;)

BTW for anybody who isn't aware, the AB 400 is a very different light from the Einstein. It uses old school tech rather than IGBT so flash durations get longer as you reduce the power. PCB website quotes 1/2000s at full power on a "400" and 1/1000 at minimum power. As you'd expect the "800"s are much slower. (Anybody else find it confusing that a light called an 800 is actually 320 w/s?)
 
As an owner of Paul C Buff products myself, I would strongly advise against buying them.

If you're a US resident, their customer service is amazing, and so is their customer service if you're in the UK, and you're willing to pay EVERYTHING both ways when problems arise. Same for Paul C Buff Europe.

I've found PCB Europe to be rude and unhelpful, taking days and days to respond to queries, and PCB USA are completely unhelpful unless you're willing to pay.

They shipped me a broken light (I paid over 80 quid for shipping), then when I told them it was broken, they refused to take it back unless I paid for the shipping to the USA and back again. So all in, I would've been down £240 just to fix a problem that was their fault.

They will make absolutely no effort to help you unless you are willing to cover expenses that they have incurred you. They also take days to respond to customer support emails.

Just buy european, because the come-backs are easier.

I have now moved on to Profoto, and while they're a bit more expensive than Einsteins, I had one blow and they replaced it in three days no questions asks. You'll NEVER get that treatment from PCB, despite what people on the internet will tell you.
 
adamgasson said:
Al, I shot a feature for BBC Focus magazine testing waterproof coats by chucking water over a model in a black tank setup pretty much identical to the second link you posted. I was using two Alien Bee 800W, two 600Ws lights I got off eBay and two old Bowens Esprit heads. Power was kept as low as possible and we had no problem freezing the water.

Photographing a swimmer diving would need a faster flash duration, that's true, but I think for most setups you don't really need such a fast flash duration.

I've also photographed Olympic sprint Dai Greene hurdling (which you can see here). This was using single a Alien Bee 400W head on quite high power with the older Vagabond pack. The only real sign of movement is the leading arm where the light didn't hit (bloody second head didn't fire!). So, again, I'm not sure if having 1/13000s is really necessary for every day shoots.
Click to expand...

cheers Adam great portfolio. the hurdler shot is cool. looking at the shadows was that shot in full sun?
I would be keen to see the jacket test shots out of interest though, if you have any you could link to?
Cheers Londonheadshots your not the first person leaving feedback like that.
Right Einstein's are out now.
on the basis of power and customer service.
Looking at the Profoto's.... their more than I want to spend for the kit and would want a battery solution which would last with confidence a whole shoot, or I'll be in the realms of another battery to add to the cost of the kit.

Garry are there any shows Lencarta are at in the coming weeks down south, or a south coast stockiest where I could go and play with the Safari Li-ons?
 
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alsos said:
cheers Adam great portfolio. the hurdler shot is cool. looking at the shadows was that shot in full sun?
I would be keen to see the jacket test shots out of interest though, if you have any you could link to?
Cheers Londonheadshots your not the first person leaving feedback like that.
Right Einstein's are out now.
on the basis of power and customer service.
Looking at the Profoto's.... their more than I want to spend for the kit and would want a battery solution which would last with confidence a whole shoot, or I'll be in the realms of another battery to add to the cost of the kit.

Garry are there any shows Lencarta are at in the coming weeks down south, or a south coast stockiest where I could go and play with the Safari Li-ons?
Click to expand...
I believe that Photomartmay have just one - they are in very short supply - but best to ring them to check before you visit there. Juan Silver is the man to speak to
 
Garry Edwards said:
I believe that Photomartmay have just one - they are in very short supply - but best to ring them to check before you visit there. Juan Silver is the man to speak to
Click to expand...
Cheers Gary I wouldn't risk a 6hr drive without checking stock ;-)
Are they the only south stockiest?
 
I'm a bit vague on stockists as I only deal with customer support and techie stuff, but I do know that they are the only people who may have one.

There is a new delivery arriving late this week/early next week, it will be sold out very quickly but if they don't still have one or if you can't get there you could order from Lencarta online and return it within 30 days if you're not happy with it.
 
Thanks I'm not in a desperate hurry so I'll carry on mulling it over for a bit, im sure they'll go quick so I wont drag my heals to much ;-)
 
@Alsos
Actually i’m in a similar situation as you are. And are really trying to find the system that offers me the greatest versatility as possible – and I just wanted to share my thoughts with you

First of all I discarded the the Einstein’s rather quickly because of the price and the flimsy mount (and problems regarding overheating)
Then I have had a look at the Strobeam EID G5, what I really like about these are the battery pack and the remote system – I’ve been in contact with at Strobeam, and they have been really helpful – but I’m still not decided, because they do seem a little weak for a 500 w/s strobe and I really would like that there were some more accurate data regarding these (I’m hoping that this will be sorted out in the near future and a lot of people will attend the Strobeam seminar the 29th of April, so I get to hear their first impressions) One of the things that worries me the most perhaps is the "unknowns" of a new brand (support for spare parts future wise etc.)

Then I’m looking at Elinchrom, 2 Quadras with A head so I’m able to individually control the power of each head and a couple of Style RX strobes to use in studiowork as main light, and then use the Quadras as background ligting and hairlight. What I don’t like about Elinchroms Quadras is that they don’t seem so durable – plastic fantastic, and they have a weak model light. But they are small and light do like the possibility to manage my lighting through my labtop and the skyport software. (And I would have to wait until they release li-ion battery for the Quadras)

Then I have also looked into Profoto – but in this search, I stumbled upon the Hensel Expert D 500, and they seem really nice. It’s a 500 w/s strobe, with recycling of 0,1 – 0,8 seconds, Their flash duration is from 1/1000 up to 1/5.600 (which should be sufficient for most needs), adjustable in 8 stops and they can be used with the profoto air trigger and software – but they are not cheap – a complete 3 head system costs about 3800 EURO, but the usb dongle to use the Profoto Air software is not included, and this small piece of equipment is alone around 350£ (that is just plain stupid) – I would however be able to control everything through the trigger - model light, power etc. which also is a nice feature (then I could by some third party power packs to use them on location – but it is not a portable solution per say)
But there isn’t a lot of information about the strobe, on the internet reviews etc. – but I’m not worried as such because of Hensel’s reputation.

Right now, i’m just waiting – and checking as much information as I can get my hands on, at least until May or June ;o)
 
snip....First of all I discarded the the Einstein’s rather quickly because of the price and the flimsy mount (and problems regarding overheating)snip...

I don't agree about the mount, just had a look at mine and its a very similar size/material/arrangement to my Bowens 750's which are built like brick outhouses and twice as heavy. Price? Not sure on this either, compared with what that can do the same job. Multlblitz and profoto are twice the cost....
Can't comment on the overheating, but the fan is noisy!

Dunc
 
Al

I have a Safari Li-on - you're welcome to come and have a play, though we're probably as far from you (Twickenham) as Photomart are.
 
Jerm said:
Al

I have a Safari Li-on - you're welcome to come and have a play, though we're probably as far from you (Twickenham) as Photomart are.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer Jerm very good of you, but yeah its a bit of a trek
 
Al,
Obviously following on from this thread you enquired about two heads I had for sale, I appreciate the 'selection' problem you had because I went through the same process. However, it would be courteous to post in the sale thread that you are no longer interested.....!
 
Hi Duncan
Ive not discounted your 750's not sure why you think I am not interested but I am undecided as you can tell. I am not looking to buy for a couple of weeks now at the earliest as I have just picked up some other kit I have had my eye on. I also need to be sure Im buying the kit once, I have made the mistake of leaping before I have looked (properly) before and would rather not do it again.:thumbs:
 
Garry Edwards said:
Problem is, you have to go down to 2.5Ws (about the power of a swan vesper:) to get the 1/13,000th...
Click to expand...

Having worked 15+ years in the career field of metrology (the study of weights and measures), there are several things that can be misleading of the various lighting manufacturers t 0.5 and t 0.1 specifications. Some manufacturers are specifing capacitor discharge rates (measured at the capacitor), while others are specifing measurements from photodiodes (as seen from the light source).

Although PCB specified the Einstein to be capable of 1/13500s at t 0.1, Rob Galbraith's real world tests showed differing results using a photodetector and an oscilloscope. But even his tests could be missleading, depending on the reaction time of the photodetector.
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-10053-10715

He measured 1/8350s at 2.5Ws at t 0.1, which is still VERY fast. But what is more interesting is Rob's tests further show, both the t 0.5 and t 0.1 specifications at each of the full stops in the Einstein range.

Almost ALL manufacturers of studio lighting equipment have come to specify flash duration as t 0.5, yet very few manufacturers specify the t 0.1 flash duration times. I don't know the real reason why they don't provide all of the details, but I suspect they don't want to put their strobes in bad light. ;) The time for any capacitor to drop half of its power (t 0.5) is far less than the time it takes to drop nearly all of its power down to (t 0.1). It is the capacitor decay going from t 0.5 to t 0.1 that can lead to motion blur (halo effect) in an exposure caused by the flash. Anything below t 0.1 (i.e. 10% of the Ws power settings) is typically considered insufficient to add any significance to the exposure, and thus the flash blur effect.

So let us examine the flash duration tables that Mr Galbraith created for his article above, to help dispell some of the fear, uncertainty, and disillusion (FUD) I am feeling in this forum. :bat:

With an Einstein in Action mode, the table shows only 1/8350s at its lowest power setting of 2.5Ws at t 0.1; thus the measured values are no where near the 1/13500s the manufacturer claims. But here is my thought on this; measurements in t 0.1 are going to be very close to real world shutter speeds. Thus my Nikon D4, which is only capable of 1/8000s at its fastest setting, just got beat by a $500 flash when it comes to freezing action. But wait, that is only at "the power of a swan vesper" one might say. ;)
I say you go take a look at the rest of the table Mr Garaith produced!!
Although at full power, the Einstein doesn't look very impressive with a 1/450s t 0.1 measure, its flash duration quickly shortens as you shave stops of power away. One stop down from full power, you get nearly a four fold improvement at 320Ws, 1/1600 for t 0.1, and two stops down you get more than a seven fold improvement at 160Ws, 1/3300s for t 0.1!!! That is like getting the output of three pro level speedlights (i.e. SB900, or 580EX II) at full power, while shooting your camera with a sync speed of 1/3300!!! Which naturally isn't possible without high speed sync (i.e. FP sync). Hmmmm, maybe that is why pro photographers like Joe McNally and Dave Black need to use a slew of speedlights to kickback the ambient of the sun at sunset!

Why do I bring all of this up? To help others understand the capabilities of the Einstein for freezing action. It is trully an amazing little box. Add the lithium battery inverter pack and the PocketWizard (PowerMC2) triggering with their Control The Light (CTL) technology, and you deffinitely get a winning combination.

No, I do not work for Paul C Buff, nor do I have any affiliations with the company. However, I do own one Einstein at this time, and I am considering the purchase of three more, along with three more vagabond battery packs to create a mobile kit that is quite capable. I have looked at numerous other comparible battery operated solutions, to include Broncolor, Hensel, Profoto, and Elinchrom. But I have yet to find the ideal tool to fit my vision. My only wish is that PCB would manufactur a 1200Ws battery pack and head system that had the same kind of features as the Einstein, with the build quality of Elinchrom or similar.
 
Welcome to TP :)

Interesting post, though I think you'll have gathered that PCB/Einstein has almost zero presence in the UK. Also, the same link to Rob Galbraith's excellent review was given in post #2.

There has been a lot of debate in the lighting forum here re flash durations, and the general conclusion, or at least mine, is that manufacturers' t.5 claims are almost useless (as are Ws and guide numbers for power output, though that's another story) but neither are there any easy answers if you want true equivalents to actual shutter speeds due to the way a conventional studio flash pulse peaks and fades during the exposure. All you can really do is make comparisons with actual shutter speeds and draw approximate and subjective conclusions - though they are much more useful than t.5 measures.

IGBT has a lot of potential, but my impression is there is not a great deal of demand for what it might do. From my limited experience of IGBT studio-type heads, thay are down on power Ws for Ws and have to be turned down quite a long way to get anything significantly faster than, say, Elinchrom's or Profoto's fast duration conventional heads - and those are generally fastest at higher outputs, which is where you want it. IGBT is also prone to significant colour shifts. Technology has a habit of overcoming these difficulties, but only if there is a market for it.

Another possibility is the tail-hypersync method that can give good results at very high shutter speeds, given appropriate equipment and technique. And it works in bright sun, without the limitation of x-sync speeds. As does high speed sync of course, with multiple guns to boost the power - that can be done quite cheaply now, using Yongnuo guns, and can also operate with auto-TTL exposure control. FWIW, if I was wanting powerful flash with high shutter speeds, I'd be looking to go the Yongnuo route first.

Edit: BTW, your estimates of hot-shoe gun power outputs seem a bit low. Top range models like 580EX put out over 100Ws equivalent, SB900 up to 130-150Ws (depending on what you consider a Ws to be in terms of brightness!).
 
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