Part exchange car?

[TheNissanMan]

feel free to correct me, but surely the only figure you need to condier ids the £x between car y and car z.......

whether discount, warranty, whatever.. how much to change,

In reality yes but unfortunately you will get the occasional oddball. I have only lost one customer in ten years like this but will never forget him. He knew exactly what he wanted, age of car model, mileage etc. He wanted 5k to change and by chance we had an overage car we wanted out off, I went back, great news I can do that for 4k saving him a thousand pounds, but, as we did not offer the value he wanted for his px he walked. I tried explaining it was a thousand pounds cheaper than he wanted, offered to give him what he wanted for his px before he left but still he was offended by the initial price of his px! Cutting his nose off to spite his face springs to mind... Happily sold the same car that afternoon so when he realised the error of his ways and phoned up the next day to buy it the car had been sold. It's not often you'll hear of a sales person being happy that the car a customer wanted had been sold.

 

[ChrisHeathcote]

feel free to correct me, but surely the only figure you need to condier ids the £x between car y and car z.......

whether discount, warranty, whatever.. how much to change,

You are indeed correct, many people don't though

 

[Cobra]

I will apologise in advance if I am a bit short in my response, however this is an attitude that really p@&£&)s me off, (and possibly many other people in my profession).

Over many years the auto industry has got a bad bad reputation with the likes of "Honest John" and Arfa Daley"
I think with the older generation (myself included) old "habits" die hard.
We want to go into a garage, be told by the salesman, how much money wants to do the deal and that's it.
(I'll already have a slightly flexible figure in my head)
If the deal is acceptable, I'll do a deal, if not I'll move on.

I don't want to spend the next hour or two having figures "manipulated", Or have another coffee, while I go see the sales manager"
to come to try to come to some agreement.

I'll freely admit that in the past, I've walked out of more than one garage, for the same reasons that are being mentioned above.
(all the to-ing and fro-ing )

 

[onomatopoeia]

I don't want to spend the next hour or two having figures "manipulated", Or have another coffee, while I go see the sales manager"

Sounds exactly like buying double glazing from one of the big national companies, the conversations with the manager to secure a special deal. etc.

I've probably offended everyone that sells second-hand cars now by comparing them to double glazing salesmen

 

[OldCarlos]

I will apologise in advance if I am a bit short in my response, however this is an attitude that really p@&£&)s me off, (and possibly many other people in my profession). To us it is not a game, we rely on it to pay our mortgages, provide food and clothing for our children. It annoys me that so many people look down on our profession. Would you refer to your profession as a game?

I'm not referring to the profession as a game, just the process. Neither am I `looking down` on your profession. I don't look down on ANY job!
As I said above, they are a business (& obviously need to make a profit) which no one is against.

I don't understand where you are coming from. All I did was post how I tend to purchase my vehicles.

There would be no need for any bartering if all pricing was clear (just like in supermarkets etc)

 

[BillN_33]

One option .. if you do not want to sell your car privately,
as part of any deal calculation with cars that Dealer does not wish to retail they will ring around their trade contacts, describe the car and get a "underwritten" value from a Dealer who does retail such cars ........ some will tell you what this value is if you ask them....... and are generally happy to do this with such cars

Then go away and try to sell your car privately, say through AutoTrader, for more than that value with the knowledge that if you do not sell it privately you have a "deal" with the dealer that you can proceed with ....... explain this to the dealer and he is usually happy for this to happen as at the end of the day he wants a happy customer who feels that his "trade in" has not been undervalued.

But as many have said ....... what he offers you depends on how much "profit" he has in the car (or month) he is selling you.

There are lots of "good dealers" out there but many are under pressure in this competitive market ....... try to understand their position

 

[Fodrigal]

There would be no need for any bartering if all pricing was clear (just like in supermarkets etc)

This comment pretty much sums up why the motor trade only has itself to blame for it's reputation

They're happy to take advantage of those that can't negotiate a good deal, but unhappy when people decide to to 'play the game'

 

[Yves Geza]

There would be no need for any bartering if all pricing was clear (just like in supermarkets etc)

This comment pretty much sums up why the motor trade only has itself to blame for it's reputation

They're happy to take advantage of those that can't negotiate a good deal, but unhappy when people decide to to 'play the game'

Here's an idea for you. Next week go into the supermarket, tell them how happy you were with the chicken you had for dinner last Sunday but this Sunday you fancy roast beef and how much will they give you for the remains of the chicken carcass?

Second hand car pricing can't be 'clear' until all second hand car owners keep all their second hand cars in exactly the same guide condition immediately suitable for resale to the next purchaser.

 

[Fodrigal]

Here's an idea for you. Next week go into the supermarket, tell them how happy you were with the chicken you had for dinner last Sunday but this Sunday you fancy roast beef and how much will they give you for the remains of the chicken carcass?

Second hand car pricing can't be 'clear' until all second hand car owners keep all their second hand cars in exactly the same guide condition immediately suitable for resale to the next purchaser.

Sorry but that's just nonsense, for the pricing to be clear all it would take is for the price in the window to be the price the customer pays.

In the current system some customers get ripped off whilst some get a good deal, that's what makes customers defensive.

 

[Cobra]

've probably offended everyone that sells second-hand cars now by comparing them to double glazing salesmen

Not sure but I bet you came damned close offending the double glazing sales people

TBH I haven't bought a car / Px a car in years, but I was when I was a lot younger, I'd be doing it every year or so,
(so many cars so little time )
The one that used to wind me up, was if I was trading in a low mileage car, it wasn't worth a "premium" Px value.
But if the one I was buying was a bit more expensive, than other make / models, the same, on the same the forecourt
it was always advertised as "low mileage"

 

[nilagin]

Don't get fixated on that 1 car you've seen............there are others just as good (or better) if you can wait a few weeks.

Easier said than done if you have an exact spec and colour in mind. It took me over 6 months before I found my car. The colour I wanted being one of the rarest and lower specced cars sold quickly, the only ones that took a while to sell were higher mileage and over priced. I eventually found two in the spec I wanted, one on sale at a dealer whose reputation I don't really care for, plus in their sale they'd increased the sticker price by over £1k. I saw the car I bought advertised on the internet same day, and went to have a look the very next morning. Very keenly priced at £1.5k below the prices everyone else wanted. Had a test drive, and the sale and part ex of my car took less than 1/2 an hour. I didn't even have to haggle much the dealer did all that. I knew how much my car was worth on trade in and they agreed to that, knocked a further £500 off the price of the new car and added £300 worth extras for free. No having to run to the sales manager. The handover a few days later took longer than the actual sale.

I don't see why a sales manager needs to get involved. Each car on a sales lot should have a file, with sticker price and minimum price they are willing to sell for. They will have a value they are willing to give for a part ex. and a price they want to sell that for, what could be easier.

 

[ChrisHeathcote]

There would be no need for any bartering if all pricing was clear (just like in supermarkets etc)

How is the pricing unclear, there is a huge set of numbers in the window. I'll let you into a secret, we don't like negotiating either, all negotiation is instigated by the customer, not by us.

As to part exchange valuations Jonathan is 100% right with this comment.

Second hand car pricing can't be 'clear' until all second hand car owners keep all their second hand cars in exactly the same guide condition immediately suitable for resale to the next purchaser.

I have 2 questions now

1. Would you pay the same amount for a car with damage as one that was is in immaculate condition
2. Would you by a car from a dealer which needed 2 new tyres and had a few scratches, or would you expect them to be put right first.

So lets suppose in immaculate condition the car is worth £5000, now an identical car comes in and needs £400 spending to put it into the same condition, does that make that car now worth £5400. No it doesn't it makes it worth £4600.

 

[ChrisHeathcote]

The one that used to wind me up, was if I was trading in a low mileage car, it wasn't worth a "premium" Px value.
But if the one I was buying was a bit more expensive, than other make / models, the same, on the same the forecourt
it was always advertised as "low mileage"

Low mileage doesn't make the car worth significantly more, but it does make it more appealing to buyers

 

[ChrisHeathcote]

Sorry but that's just nonsense, for the pricing to be clear all it would take is for the price in the window to be the price the customer pays.

Who instigates the negotiation?
Using Jonathan's analogy, when you go shopping next week, wait until they've finished scanning your items and then offer them 10% less and see what they say

Edit:
Tesco 2014 Profit - 3%
Pendragon (UK largest dealer group) 2014 profit 1%
Source: Redmayne Bentley Stockbrokers

Supermarkets do give you a better deal after all

 

[Nod]

Recently bought a s***box for around 60% of the value had it been in perfect nick. Cost me less than a set of tyres for the "proper" car. While it's not in perfect condition, it drives perfectly, is low mileage, 2 previous old lady owners and can be left anywhere without worrying if some git opens their door into it! For us, worth every penny it cost, although the seller could have left more than a pint of fuel in it!!!

 

[Yves Geza]

Recently bought a s***box for around 60% of the value had it been in perfect nick. Cost me less than a set of tyres for the "proper" car. While it's not in perfect condition, it drives perfectly, is low mileage, 2 previous old lady owners and can be left anywhere without worrying if some git opens their door into it! For us, worth every penny it cost, although the seller could have left more than a pint of fuel in it!!!

You lousy ingrate!

There might have less than a pint of fuel in the front half with the chassis plate and the logbook, but the back half I welded onto it had a quarter of a tank!!

 

[Cobra]

Low mileage doesn't make the car worth significantly more, but it does make it more appealing to buyers

Agreed on that Chris, and unless things have changed over the years,
as above, it makes no difference when Pxing, but does when you are buying

 

[Nod]

You lousy ingrate!

There might have less than a pint of fuel in the front half with the chassis plate and the logbook, but the back half I welded onto it had a quarter of a tank!!

Well, I wasn't going to name and shame but... !

It got me to Fleet where I fed it (and me!) a tenner's worth then topped up off M'way. Still on that tankfull. Still a s***box! Perfect for our needs.

 

[OldCarlos]

How is the pricing unclear, there is a huge set of numbers in the window. I'll let you into a secret, we don't like negotiating either, all negotiation is instigated by the customer, not by us.

I bet you don't like it, you'd prefer to make as much as possible, obviously, but that isn't the way of the world is it.
Heck you'll be saying folk will be saving a few quid by buying goods directly from Asia via the 'tinterweb next, instead of going into their local store & paying full price!


Right, Mr X walks in the showroom & sees all those numbers on the windscreen.

Does he A; Pay full price
or..... B; negotiate & save hundreds of pounds?


If there were no negotiating.................you wouldn't need salesmen.

 

[ChrisHeathcote]

I bet you don't like it, you'd prefer to make as much as possible, obviously, but that isn't the way of the world is it.
Heck you'll be saying folk will be saving a few quid by buying goods directly from Asia via the 'tinterweb next, instead of going into their local store & paying full price!


Right, Mr X walks in the showroom & sees all those numbers on the windscreen.

Does he A; Pay full price
or..... B; negotiate & save hundreds of pounds?


If there were no negotiating.................you wouldn't need salesmen.

If Mr X walked in to Tesco he'd pay full price.

So we aren't allowed to make money on the car that we sell, we can't make money on the car we buy. So where do we make the money?
One garage near me works a no negotiation policy. You walk in, they value your car. You choose your car and pay the difference. No negotiation. Why is that when it comes to buying cars the UK feels the urge to negotiate, yet you'd never think to question the price in M&S.

 

[Yv]

If there were no negotiating.................you wouldn't need salesmen.

What if I told you our salesman earned NO commission? He is salaried, he gets paid whether he sells cars or not. He doesn't give the hard sell and does find out the customers needs before advising on vehicles that would suit or if the s/h car they are looking at will really do the job they want. Yet in spite of all that, customers still want to negotiate the price. What if I put a big sign in the window explaining all that, would customers walk in and happily pay the fair price in the car window? What if EVERY dealer did the same, would that make customers stop trying to negotiate? I doubt that needs answering to be honest.

As Chris pointed out earlier, check out profit margins for supermarkets against big dealer groups and see what effect clear and set pricing has, because trust me, most dealers would rather go with that.

 

[nilagin]

He doesn't give the hard sell and does find out the customers needs before advising on vehicles that would suit or if the s/h car they are looking at will really do the job they want.

Fair do's to your salesman for doing that. But I can't understand people who walk into a showroom or car lot to buy a car and not know what they want. I know exactly what car I want and what I want it for. I've only shown up to see if the car they have for sale is the one for me.

 

[Yv]

Fair do's to your salesman for doing that. But I can't understand people who walk into a showroom or car lot to buy a car and not know what they want. I know exactly what car I want and what I want it for. I've only shown up to see if the car they have for sale is the one for me.

Yes, but not everyone has your understanding. Yes, most will have a fair idea of the sort of car, but we still regularly see folks wanting a diesel when their average mileage is about 5k a year, all short runs, in london, to the the shops and back. However they have heard that diesels are fuel efficient, sooo.... it is our job to advise that perhaps there are better alternatives. They don't have to take the advice, but it has to be there imo. Yo have to remember that not everyone is as fascinated and interested in the finer points of engineering as some.

 

[OldCarlos]

If Mr X walked in to Tesco he'd pay full price.

So we aren't allowed to make money on the car that we sell, we can't make money on the car we buy. So where do we make the money?
One garage near me works a no negotiation policy. You walk in, they value your car. You choose your car and pay the difference. No negotiation. Why is that when it comes to buying cars the UK feels the urge to negotiate, yet you'd never think to question the price in M&S.

Of course you are allowed to make money. Where have I said otherwise?

If Tesco allowed haggling do you think Mr X would not try?

Yv, I understand about `margins` & what you're saying, but most customers, as the buyer spending their hard-earned, aren't that interested & just want the best deal they can get. Hence negotiating.

I wish there was No Haggling, for everything! it would make things much easier.

All I posted, for the OP, was how I try to get the best deal I can & up to now I've been fairly happy with the results.

Presumably the dealers must also have been content at the price or they wouldn't have sold them.

 

[ChrisHeathcote]

You can buy anything you want without haggling, it's you that chooses to.
As I said car dealers on average make less money than supermarkets, but because it is all in one go it is deemed that we are ripping people off, I bet over a 3 year period (average change cycle) supermarkets make considerably more. As food and drink is a life necessity I think this is unfair profiteering.

What I find amusing is that people like Quentin Wilson, Mike Brewer who are now seen as being the peoples champion and will help you get a good deal, are the people that exploited customers back when they sold cars and whilst there advice may have been relevant then, margins are lot tighter because it is easier for people to shop. (Quentin Wilson was convicted back in 88 for selling cars under a false description including winding a car back from 100k miles to just 27k miles)

 

[Cobra]

I know exactly what car I want and what I want it for.

Yep that sounds like me also

but we still regularly see folks wanting a diesel when their average mileage is about 5k a year, all short runs, in london, to the the shops and back. However they have heard that diesels are fuel efficient, sooo...

But I also agree with Yvonne, there are far more choices and "technical's" to be considered these days,
Years ago, a MKII diesel Granada would have been fine, in London.
Clattering away on cheap fuel, and barging out of the way, the smaller MKII escorts and the like.
But these days with all this engine management stuff thrown in for good measure,
Its not quite like that anymare.

I blame the car industry Per se'

 

[Cobra]

You can buy anything you want without haggling, it's you that chooses to.

I guess its because cars and houses tend to be the most amount that the average persons spends on a semi regular basis.
You wouldn't buy a £300,000 (for example) house for the market value, as you know damned well that the estate agent has inflated the price,
I'm not saying that garages do that with cars but the same mentality, of the customer, applies to both purchases.

As for Tesco "we" have been conditioned that Tesco sells at rock bottom prices, so don't try and negotiate.
We just Vote with our feet now the likes of Aldi & Lidl have become more acceptable as places to shop

 

[Fodrigal]

So we aren't allowed to make money on the car that we sell, we can't make money on the car we buy. So where do we make the money?

I've got no problems with car dealers making money, I've worked as a salesman at a used car supermarket and also done some sole trading so I'm also not criticising the job or the people involved. I'm just highlighting that the current setup of the majority of car dealerships pricing is a self fulfilling cycle.

People feel the need to haggle on cars to avoid being ripped off because they know there is (pretty much) always room to negotiate and car salesman have a bad rep
so
Car dealerships build in the negotiation % into the sticker price so that they can negotiate and still make a profit
so
People who can't/won't negotiate pay for over-priced vehicles and continue spreading the bad rep, reinforcing the idea that you need to haggle to get a good deal

I know how tight the margins are in the majority of cases, and it's a very competitive market now, but until there is a no-negotiation policy at all car dealerships this will continue to be a 'problem'

There is a large car supermarket near me that also have the no-haggle setup, they seem to be doing very well, so to be honest I'm surprised it hasn't caught on.

From what I can tell there has been a big drop in the really hardcore controlled selling methods that used to be in play at a lot of the car supermarkets, which is also a big step in the right direction for the industry as a whole IMO

 

[cosmicma]

i think people like to get a good deal or should i say like to think their getting a good deal the price in the car window isn't as important to some as long as they pay less than what is in the window, especially in the second hand market
how many people who buy a second hand car will know it's true value ? some will do their homework and have an idea of the going rate but i bet there will be a considerable number who are strictly reliant on the advertised price
the price difference between one car and another of the same make, year and model can vary wildly from forecourt to forecourt, in a way we really are at the mercy of the dealer

car salesmen do their job and we all know there is wiggle room on the advertised price, we come to an agreement were both happy with or we look elsewhere there's not much else to it
the salesmans job is to convince you that is the car for you at the price they are happy to sell it, if they manage to do that and your both happy job done

as for how good the car really is we wont truly know that until we part with hard earned and have had it for a while

 

[nilagin]

Yo have to remember that not everyone is as fascinated and interested in the finer points of engineering as some.

I realise that by some of the really awful cars manufacturers manage to sell.

 

[nilagin]

Mike Brewer now seen as being the peoples champion and will help you get a good deal,

One bloke who's advice I would take with a pinch of salt. His knowledge of cars and the things he says are cringeworthy. As much as I like watching Ed China working on the cars, I can't listen to Mike. Gibbering idiot

 

[nilagin]

I know of one Garage that always over priced their cars by £2.5k compared to other garages. They also offered £2.5k minimum p-ex so long as it had 6 months MOT. People obviously thought they'd be getting a good deal. When we had those high winds in 87, they made a big deal of taking in someone's wreck as a p-ex. after a tree had fallen on it. I suppose all it saved the person was loss of no claims on their insurance.

 

[TheNissanMan]

I have no problem with negotiations as it balances out in the end, where I do get confused is someone comes in expecting 25% off the price of the car, give us a fighting chance. The other giggle I have is the customer who expects more for their px than I could go and buy an equivalent car from a dealer on auto trader for. Had one of those this morning!

 

[Blue Moon 7]

I have just swopped my car and it was a simple and hassle free transaction. I was actually really happy with my car but because of a problem with my leg, mileage that I do annually (25000) and spending lots of hours jammed up on motorways I needed an automatic. I knew what I wanted for my part exchange and I knew what I wanted to pay to make up the difference. I wasn't prepared to pay any more and made that clear to the dealer. As has been discussed earlier in this thread it isn't always about what you get for a part ex. It is about what you want to pay. I sat and watched from a distance as the salesman at BMW typed in all kinds of permutations in terms of part ex prices and knocking bits and bobs off the advertised price to work out a deal that meant I was paying what I wanted to pay and they were doing some shuffling of prices and discounting at the other end. There was no hard sell, no hard bargaining and in fact the fella saved me a little more money than I had said I wanted to pay (£500)

What I did find a little odd was that I was trading in a VW Golf GT and my usual VW dealer's best offer against a Golf GTD Automatic was almost £3000 less than BMW offered me against a 330d M Sport Plus. I went back to VW a few times and I think they thought I was playing them off against BMW. I wasn't and have been really happy with VW for many years, as has my partner. We have both had Golfs for the past 12 years. Anyway, sadly I have left VW behind and am now the happy owner of the BMW 330 and am discovering the fun in driving this thing. It is a beast to drive and scarily fast. It was classed as a demo and has all sorts of extras on it that would have cost thousands extra if I had paid for them as options. It actually had only 10 miles on the clock and hadn't been used as a demonstrator.

 

[big soft moose]

I know of one Garage that always over priced their cars by £2.5k compared to other garages. They also offered £2.5k minimum p-ex so long as it had 6 months MOT. People obviously thought they'd be getting a good deal. When we had those high winds in 87, they made a big deal of taking in someone's wreck as a p-ex. after a tree had fallen on it. I suppose all it saved the person was loss of no claims on their insurance.

a while back i got one of those - minimum £1000 part ex so long as it has an MOt deals - now the garage may well have thought they were pulling a fast one, and that they'd snared another mug with their inflated by a grand price, but on the other hand the car I traded in had less than a week of MOt left, was an utter wreck and was definitely going to fail - and i'd have probably wound up paying to have it taken away , so shifting that problem to the garage seemed tlike an okay deal to me (though i didnt kid myself that i'd really saved any money on the car i bought)

On the other hand when i bought my current car the first salesman i saw tried to tell me that APR was meaningless, and that borrowing £5k at 29.9% wouldnt cost any more than borrowing it at 5% ... he had pretty pictures and everything.. oooh shiny ... i told him i objected to being treated like a mug and walked out. I then walked round the corner to another dealer who sold me the car i'm driving now for a decent price with a minimum of flim flam

 

[Rovers_Andy]

I have just swopped my car and it was a simple and hassle free transaction. I was actually really happy with my car but because of a problem with my leg, mileage that I do annually (25000) and spending lots of hours jammed up on motorways I needed an automatic. I knew what I wanted for my part exchange and I knew what I wanted to pay to make up the difference. I wasn't prepared to pay any more and made that clear to the dealer. As has been discussed earlier in this thread it isn't always about what you get for a part ex. It is about what you want to pay. I sat and watched from a distance as the salesman at BMW typed in all kinds of permutations in terms of part ex prices and knocking bits and bobs off the advertised price to work out a deal that meant I was paying what I wanted to pay and they were doing some shuffling of prices and discounting at the other end. There was no hard sell, no hard bargaining and in fact the fella saved me a little more money than I had said I wanted to pay (£500)

What I did find a little odd was that I was trading in a VW Golf GT and my usual VW dealer's best offer against a Golf GTD Automatic was almost £3000 less than BMW offered me against a 330d M Sport Plus. I went back to VW a few times and I think they thought I was playing them off against BMW. I wasn't and have been really happy with VW for many years, as has my partner. We have both had Golfs for the past 12 years. Anyway, sadly I have left VW behind and am now the happy owner of the BMW 330 and am discovering the fun in driving this thing. It is a beast to drive and scarily fast. It was classed as a demo and has all sorts of extras on it that would have cost thousands extra if I had paid for them as options. It actually had only 10 miles on the clock and hadn't been used as a demonstrator.

Great car!

 

[Overexposed]

My opinion of franchised dealers - particularly executive ones is very poor . Just before Xmas we were looking for a 12 month old Mini for my wife we needed to change as the existing car was on its last legs . We found the car in the spec we wanted at the local iBMW/Mini dealership went to see it - it was parked outside and perfect and we were ready to do a deal - went into the showroom could we get someone to see us - no despite two or three people sat in offices or at desks busy on their computers - after waiting nearly an hour I left our details with the receptionist, I called them the next day and was told a salesmen would call back.
I then found an identical car on a non franchised dealers advert went to see the car, negotiated the deal I wanted and bought it the same day ( it was also nearly a grand cheaper). 1 week later the original dealer called me back asking me about our interest in their car and he was properly put out that we'd bought someones elses car ( apparently it wouldnt have the same warranty!) Hee couldn't answer why it had taken over a week for them to come back to me. The thing is the same dealer had done exactly the same when I was looking tio change my BMW 18 months earlier.
Guess who wont be getting our servicing business!
So please don't suggest car dealers are professional, they are the same as another providers of goods, three are good bad and indifferent. Given the choice now I would buy late used again a its so little hassle - every time you go in to a new car showroom its an afternoon of your life gone, usually due to needless haggling and being sold add ons you neither want nor need.

 

[TheNissanMan]

I think that stereotype is a bit harsh, I know I'm speaking about but most of my customers are in and out in an hour to 90 mins, some longer, some considerably shorter. Yes I will discuss optional products with everybody, but, it is not my decision as to whether the products available are beneficial to them, only they can answer that and only if they know about them. Yes, I get paid if you take Supagard or gap or finance but it's only as an option, I'm fully aware that if I push those products where there is no interest chances are I won't sell a car full stop so would rather sell a unit and have a happy customer. It is all about the customer experience at the end of the day, you could have the best car at the best price but if the sales person is a muppet and customer and exec don't get on you won't sell a thing...

 

[Overexposed]

I can only comment as I find!

 

[LongLensPhotography]

Discussions about certain things like petrol vs diesel, small vs. large, auto vs manual can be very polarised by the personal beliefs of the salesman or rather what needs to be shifted more. I have a very good idea what I want and I don't need telling I got it all wrong. I am sure many people feel the same, while the others openly ask about it... What I need is an honest portrayal of the car in question, and ideally up on their ramp and on their diagnostics kit. I'd happily pay a little more for that because then it won't cost me that certain £1k to fix it. They could also fully adhere to to the Sale of goods act and admit full 6 month warranty without further hassle or even court claim, and be open upfront what the addon warranties actually offer. I need to really pull that info from them all the time.